Jenner vs. Covington (both DC) Forum

[dbt]

I have received offers from both of these offices and I'd like to make a decision quickly. I really enjoyed the people and the atmosphere at each office and this really is a difficult decision, so I'd like to get any input from others as I compare the two.

The main difference (which I think may decide it, but may not) is that Covington has enacted a new clerkship policy that requires you to go clerk before coming to work for the firm (that is, if you want to clerk at all - you just can't come work, then leave to clerk with the intent to return). Jenner doesn't have this policy and indeed when I mentioned Covington's policy they prided themselves on being pretty free-spirited in that and other respects. Given the more competitive nature of the clerkship market (especially as the Plan is largely ignored), I feel like I'd be more competitive working at Jenner for a year and then applying for Dist. Ct. (then COA) clerkships than if I tried to clerk straight out of law school (as Cov requires).

Other considerations though are that I really loved the people at Covington, the larger size (yet stability) in 2008/09 does (for whatever reason) make me feel safer (ITE), and there are far more practice areas at Covington. I also guess that a larger SA program (something like 50-55 in DC at Cov compared to 12-14 at Jenner) may be more structured. But I also think that at Jenner I'm more likely to get involved with really interesting, impressive work early just because it's more like a boutique/lack of hierarchy.

Other thoughts are appreciated.

[Anonymous User]

You did well at NYU and are now at Yale, you should be able to land a D.Ct. clerkship right out, then you can try CoA (that is, if you don't get CoA from the start). Since you're likely not a marginal candidate, I doubt your chances increases much by waiting a year. Think about the work each firm does and the people you met there, is it really worth a slight increase in chances? Only you can answer that.

[rayiner]

Covington.

DC satellite offices, as prestigious as they may be, are often subsidized by the parent firm (not exactly a ton of $$$ in appellate work) and you don't want to be around when Jenner Chicago implodes.

[Anonymous User]

Covington.

DC satellite offices, as prestigious as they may be, are often subsidized by the parent firm (not exactly a ton of $$$ in appellate work) and you don't want to be around when Jenner Chicago implodes.

Jenner Chicago isn't going anywhere. Come on. I think last year was one of their most profitable as well.

Clerkships are easier when you know former clerks. Doesn't Jenner have a ton of former SCOTUS clerks? I'm sure both would be fine in this respect though.

[dbt]

You did well at NYU and are now at Yale, you should be able to land a D.Ct. clerkship right out, then you can try CoA (that is, if you don't get CoA from the start). Since you're likely not a marginal candidate, I doubt your chances increases much by waiting a year. Think about the work each firm does and the people you met there, is it really worth a slight increase in chances? Only you can answer that.

Well, the thing is I'd really like to remain in DC or return to NYC for the clerkship (at least D.Ct.) if possible, but I know that SDNY/EDNY/DDC are among the most competitive. I worry that I would miss the mark for those, while I may not miss that mark at Jenner (or at least I'd feel like I'd have done everything I can). I know judges are moving away from the plan and that it's getting much more difficult to get good clerkships (or maybe any) right out of law school - and I (as of now) lack Law Journal and have to establish relationships with new professors/etc. It seems like that extra year at Yale to do those things will be highly valuable...

[Anonymous User]

Going to go against the grain here and say that I'd choose Jenner, but the choice is by no means obvious. I'm also not sure why Covington appears to be the safer bet. As rayiner rightly points out, appellate work tends not to be the most profitable practice area in a firm. The problem is even more widespread than that: Most DC practice groups tend not to be super profitable, which is why they almost never stack up with the NYC firms in terms of PPP (though W&C is obviously up there in RPL). Confirming this is Covington's PPP, revenue, and RPL from last year, which weren't exactly representative of a firm considered "elite." In addition, Covington froze salaries. Well, they first froze salaries in every office except NYC, which supports my point above, and then they unfroze salaries in every office but DC, their HQ. Again, that sort of supports my point above.

I think Jenner is safer precisely because of the boutique-ish feeling, and even though it's a satellite office to a firm that's centered in Chicago, it's very much the one of Jenner's prized possessions. I doubt they'd ever do anything drastic to that office. Moreover, just because their summer class is smaller, it doesn't at all mean that it's less structured. And, in fact, the size might be to your advantage.
Those are just my two cents. I don't know much about DC. I accidentally interviewed for Jenner DC way back when (and by "accidentally," I mean I signed up for an interview without knowing just how selective and prestigious they are) and was completely blown away by the brilliance of my screening interviewer and everyone I met at the Jenner reception. Their rejection letter was super personalized too.

And no, I don't think Jenner Chicago is close to imploding. But that's just my impression from people I know who work in that office.

[dbt]

Going to go against the grain here and say that I'd choose Jenner, but the choice is by no means obvious. I'm also not sure why Covington appears to be the safer bet. As rayiner rightly points out, appellate work tends not to be the most profitable practice area in a firm. The problem is even more widespread than that: Most DC practice groups tend not to be super profitable, which is why they almost never stack up with the NYC firms in terms of PPP (though W&C is obviously up there in RPL). Confirming this is Covington's PPP, revenue, and RPL from last year, which weren't exactly representative of a firm considered "elite." In addition, Covington froze salaries. Well, they first froze salaries in every office except NYC, which supports my point above, and then they unfroze salaries in every office but DC, their HQ. Again, that sort of supports my point above.

I think Jenner is safer precisely because of the boutique-ish feeling, and even though it's a satellite office to a firm that's centered in Chicago, it's very much the one of Jenner's prized possessions. I doubt they'd ever do anything drastic to that office. Moreover, just because their summer class is smaller, it doesn't at all mean that it's less structured. And, in fact, the size might be to your advantage.
Those are just my two cents. I don't know much about DC. I accidentally interviewed for Jenner DC way back when (and by "accidentally," I mean I signed up for an interview without knowing just how selective and prestigious they are) and was completely blown away by the brilliance of my screening interviewer and everyone I met at the Jenner reception. Their rejection letter was super personalized too.

And no, I don't think Jenner Chicago is close to imploding. But that's just my impression from people I know who work in that office.

This is a really helpful way to think of things. Tyvm.

[rayiner]

I was being tongue-in-cheek referring to Jenner's imminent collapse, but still, if I had Covington on the table I would not be able to stomach the increased risk at Jenner. Chicago is *not* a healthy legal market, and if the economy double-dips I'd personally sleep more soundly at night if I were at Covington.

[Anonymous User]

I was being tongue-in-cheek referring to Jenner's imminent collapse, but still, if I had Covington on the table I would not be able to stomach the increased risk at Jenner. Chicago is *not* a healthy legal market, and if the economy double-dips I'd personally sleep more soundly at night if I were at Covington.

That's a fair point. I'm just not sure whether, if Jenner Chicago took a hit, this would correspond to something against Jenner DC. The offices seem fairly independent. But I could be wrong.

We all know Mayer is not doing so well these days, but their DC practice hasn't really been compromised. Same with Sidley. I don't know if the serve as perfect counter-examples, but surely they count for something.

[dbt]

I was being tongue-in-cheek referring to Jenner's imminent collapse, but still, if I had Covington on the table I would not be able to stomach the increased risk at Jenner. Chicago is *not* a healthy legal market, and if the economy double-dips I'd personally sleep more soundly at night if I were at Covington.

That's a fair point. I'm just not sure whether, if Jenner Chicago took a hit, this would correspond to something against Jenner DC. The offices seem fairly independent. But I could be wrong.

We all know Mayer is not doing so well these days, but their DC practice hasn't really been compromised. Same with Sidley. I don't know if the serve as perfect counter-examples, but surely they count for something.

I looked at above the law's firm profiles and got this:

"In 2009, Jenner and Block took in more revenue and profits than ever before due to strong counter-cyclical practices and cost-cutting measures taken by the firm. Its Los Angeles office is a recent addition, opened in April 2009 by two partners recruited from Kirkland & Ellis. According to managing partner Susan Levy, the firm is in growth mode and will be hiring lateral attorneys in 2010."

Contrast that with Covington's freezing salaries and keeping them frozen in DC until the end. At the very least, I'm not sure I could say which firm (due to its location/practice areas) is a safer bet. Both seem at least alright.

[Anonymous User]

My Professor worked for Jenner in Chicago and he said he put in about 80+ hours a week. I don’t know how that compares to Covington. Jenner's 33.5% increase in ppp was the biggest in the amlaw 200 for 2009. I don’t know why they had a bigger increase than everyone else it could be that demand really picked up for them, but I think it is more likely their profits went up for other reasons like decreasing head count. Either way you have two great firms to choose from.

[Anonymous User]

"In 2009, Jenner and Block took in more revenue and profits than ever before due to strong counter-cyclical practices a

Hahaha, I think that was the Lehman Bros. report. I don't know what they'll bill out to this year, but then again I'm not the expert on all things Jenner. But yes, there's good reason to believe last year might have been an anomaly in that regard.

[Anonymous User]

I had the opportunity to spend a bit of time interacting with people at Covington this summer, and I have to say I was definitely impressed. The summer program seems really structured, and all of the summers seemed to really hold the program in high regard. Unfortunately, I cannot compare it to Jenner, but I really think Covington would be a great place to work. As you noted, Covington will also let you try your hand at a lot of different practice areas. That said, I also think it's important to note the main-office vs. satellite office dichotomy. Jenner's DC office is really prestigious, but having worked in a DC satellite office this summer, I can definitely say that there is a difference in feel. Being the main hub for the firm may seem like a small point, but it can really have a lot to do with the day-to-day workings of the office. Whenever I visited the NYC office of my firm, it was readily apparent that that was where the "main action" was. Likewise, all of the DC based firms I visited this summer really felt in control of the firms' dealings. This is definitely not something that should be the end-all-be-all, but it's something to think about.

I'm sure you know you're in a great position. Just go with the one that you thought had the best feel. The clerkship point doesn't seem like a huge one in your case, because you're probably already such a great candidate.

[Anonymous User]

The main office vs. satellite distinction varies from firm to firm, so I don't think one can generalize from one firm to another.

[Anonymous User]

The main office vs. satellite distinction varies from firm to firm, so I don't think one can generalize from one firm to another.

Fair point.

[bwv812]

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[vamedic03]

You did well at NYU and are now at Yale, you should be able to land a D.Ct. clerkship right out, then you can try CoA (that is, if you don't get CoA from the start). Since you're likely not a marginal candidate, I doubt your chances increases much by waiting a year. Think about the work each firm does and the people you met there, is it really worth a slight increase in chances? Only you can answer that.

Well, the thing is I'd really like to remain in DC or return to NYC for the clerkship (at least D.Ct.) if possible, but I know that SDNY/EDNY/DDC are among the most competitive. I worry that I would miss the mark for those, while I may not miss that mark at Jenner (or at least I'd feel like I'd have done everything I can). I know judges are moving away from the plan and that it's getting much more difficult to get good clerkships (or maybe any) right out of law school - and I (as of now) lack Law Journal and have to establish relationships with new professors/etc. It seems like that extra year at Yale to do those things will be highly valuable...

Not that its much easier to get, but don't discount E.D.Va for d. clerkships.

[dbt]

Let's say you do join C&B but don't get the clerkship you wanted. Should you really be worried about your exit opportunities if you do go C&B -> DDC/SDNY/EDNY -> CoA? It seems unlikely, but I don't know. So is it just that you value the continuity of coming back to the same firm, or are you worried about getting firm references when you apply for a clerkship? Genuinely curious.

I think this is a great point and something I picked up on about 20 minutes ago while talking it over with a friend. It really doesn't matter as far as practice areas go, because if I only went to work at Jenner for a year (or even two) then I'd essentially be looking at being hired places as a post-clerk, not as a lateral. But yes, I would maybe go back to Jenner - the place seemed great.

[Anonymous User]

very good friend works in Covington DC - mid-level associate, says the firm is run by a bunch of jerks, very poor management, hates it there, doesn't sound like a good place to work at all from the crazy stories he tells me (in-fighting between partners, cliques, etc.) trying to lateral outta there to a more sane place (pretty sure he has an offer from a rival DC firm - just thought I'd drop my $0.02 here - his main beef is that the clerkship fetish results in non-uniform classes, because everybody's starting at various times after their clerkships are up - there's no sense of "we're in the same class, moving together as one group"

don't know the first thing about jenner-dc, didn't realize they were a known entity in DC, they're not even band 4 in DC for litigation - do u wanna do litigation? - I do know a lot about jenner chicago, maybe too much, lol, jenner chicago is badass, not imploding, they're gonna be around - just like kirkland/sidley/mayer chicago, I don't care how bad the Chicago market is right now, these firms ain't going nowhere.

Do you have any other offers/callbacks lined up?

[dbt]

very good friend works in Covington DC - mid-level associate, says the firm is run by a bunch of jerks, very poor management, hates it there, doesn't sound like a good place to work at all from the crazy stories he tells me (in-fighting between partners, cliques, etc.) trying to lateral outta there to a more sane place (pretty sure he has an offer from a rival DC firm - just thought I'd drop my $0.02 here - his main beef is that the clerkship fetish results in non-uniform classes, because everybody's starting at various times after their clerkships are up - there's no sense of "we're in the same class, moving together as one group"

don't know the first thing about jenner-dc, didn't realize they were a known entity in DC, they're not even band 4 in DC for litigation - do u wanna do litigation? - I do know a lot about jenner chicago, maybe too much, lol..

Do you have any other offers/callbacks lined up?

I doubt I'd avoid that "lack of class of 2012" at Jenner either since so many people do the clerk-firm thing too.

Jenner DC is in my opinion a great office, so it's not really a matter of convincing me of that.

I dropped my other callbacks. I want one of these two.

[yellowjacket2012]

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[dbt]

are you interested in general litigation?

yea I'm only really interested in litigation. as far as the different areas within litigation, the practice areas at jenner are all relatively appealing and covington has a ton, so...

[yellowjacket2012]

.

[Anonymous User]

Is C+B known for anything corporate/regulatory whatsoever? All i've heard is they're a strong litigation shop and I have a CB there next week.

[dbt]

Is C+B known for anything corporate/regulatory whatsoever? All i've heard is they're a strong litigation shop and I have a CB there next week.

yea they do a bit of corporate stuff and a good deal of regulatory was the impression I got from talking to interviewers. but I only really focused on lit.