Another employment post Forum

[270910]

How's it going?

[pocket herc]

Just my two cents, I think this question is early by a matter of years. Some people are frustrated because the immediate rewards may be elusive. What they ultimately make of their careers is very much yet to be determined however. So even if I were to make a recommendation to my peers, I'd also hope they disregard it because I (and maybe many of us) don't really yet know, and what's more, I am alright with that.

[verdandi]

I have a feeling that the answer to this question will be "depends" -- are you confident you will excel in law school? Is the law school you plan to attend traditionally strong in the geographical area in which you wish to practice? Do your geographical preferences and practice area preferences match up -- i.e., are you planning to tell your Portland prospective employers that you've always had a burning passion for structuring collateralized debt obligations? Are you fully aware of the requirements of ITE for safe passage through the OCI process -- arguably top 30%, some kind of journal, and maybe even some WE or other strong signal of competence in your interest area?

Depending on the answer to these and other questions, I would certainly be willing to recommend law school (and have) in certain circumstances. As a strong proponent of getting what you bargained for, I don't really have any problem with people taking risks as long as they are fully aware of those risks.

[rcb5142]

I think that would depend mostly on which school, the debt/scholarship package, and what the other options these peers have. I wouldn't suggest that anyone leave a 40k job, take on a bunch of debt, and go to a mediocre or less than mediocre school. But if they are unemployed or working at McD's and get a decent scholarship somewhere and they know they'll work hard, then i'd say do it. I guess the hard question is whether a T14 justifies 180k. If they realize the reality of 20 year repayment plans and like law enough to go all in like that - then they are no dumber than we were i guess.

[Cavalier]

Maybe only to the peers I don't like.

[Kohinoor]

Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"

[PiersonVee]

It seems like many people see law school as a b-school alternative for people without significant work experience. If that is your outlook, you run the risk of disappointment if biglaw doesn't pan out. Unless you care about practicing law, you should avoid law school.

[Anonymous User]

I voted No. I'm currently warning my friends that if they really want to be lawyers they should make sure they go to law school for free or don't go at all. I was very lucky to get a job outside of OCI, but if I didn't I'd be unemployed and coming out of MVP with $200k debt. Even now, assuming nothing goes wrong with the job I have lined up and the SA turns into an offer, I'm going to be making less than I thought I was when I signed my loan paperwork.

Be very, very careful. The days of "everyone" at T14's coming out with the job they wanted are long gone. If you can get into a T14 you can go to lower ranked school for free or close to it. If you absolutely kill your 1L, you have the option of transferring up. If you don't kill your 1L at a lower ranked school, you probably aren't going to kill it at a T14, and if you don't kill at a T14, unemployment or underemployment are very real.

I don't regret going to law school, but I do regret go to a law school that's costing me what it's costing me.

[Action Jackson]

Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"

+1.

[270910]

.

[yellowjacket2012]

I'd recommend law school to anyone who has a strong interest in studying and then practicing the law, and who has a full understanding of the financial risks, regardless of "OCI" - this is just short term movement of the labor market, if you have a passion for legal reasoning/research/writing - which anybody can "figure out" if they read a handful of briefs in a real case, and if someone is responsible enough to take on essentially a mini-mortgage, go for it.

A market crash resulting in short-term pain isn't reason enough to walk away from an area you feel passionate about careerwise. I recently gave my friend a half dozen pdf files to read, they were a complaint, a response, a motion for summary judgment, and an appeal. He's really into it, and he's going to enroll at GW next year. (or apply anyway, he'll get in imo).

To anyone entering law for the money, I'd say its not really that much money when adjusted for lifestyle/hours worked. Law isn't a very good way to make money if that's an end in itself, you need to do something where you can scale up - assuming all you care about is money. In other words, if God came down and said I'm gonna send you to hell if you don't make a boat load of money in your lifetime, law is not the optimal career choice when adjusted for everything. Starting your own business, failing, restarting, failing again, restarting . . . is the recommended career path.

[Danteshek]

If you want to be a lawyer, sure.

[OperaSoprano]

Wow-- It is telling to see how a cross section of people answered this question, across all strata of schools, grades, OCI experiences, etc.

I took a gamble when I came to law school. The conventional wisdom in these circles is that schools below the T14 are a huge risk at sticker, and before the crash, when more than 40% of my classmates were getting NLJ250 jobs (as per the NLJ250 report, not numbers put out by the school itself) I would have loudly argued with that. A gamble, sure, but a 43.7% chance at such a job, which the class of 2008 had, is not an awful risk to take. Even in leaner years, with the numbers in the 33-40% range, it's an educated risk. And of course, not everybody wants biglaw. Many of my friends would not have gone near OCI if you paid them, and it was not in my original game plan. For those who understand what the nonprofit hiring landscape is like, and have a suitable background, IBR + LRAP can make even $220K in loans manageable. It'll be gone in ten years, courtesy of the Federal government, and in the meantime, school will be picking up, or at least helping with the payments. Things are a bit different now, and we don't know where the biglaw line is. That makes it scary for people who do want it, because they don't have a sense of where they have to place in the class as we all await and hope for recovery.

Amy's response is the most credited so far. I would advise friends to consider their own backgrounds. Mine made me a hard sell to certain employers that otherwise seemed to like me and my law school credentials. In the end, I got the internship I have because it fit with the background I had prior to coming here. I thought I could run away from that background and start over, but no dice, and in the end I realize it was a blessing in disguise. Though I don't have an SA offer, I am still glad I came to law school. For a start, it's been one of the most amazing years of my life! I still maintain that people don't do enough research, and I was lucky things went as they did. I know I'm living a charmed life even though I don't have a directly illuminated path to full time employment post graduation. After everything I've seen, I know connections in my previous field can help me, and I am exceedingly grateful to have them. My advice to the next generation is to think long and hard about what you want, how you will pay for it, and who you know that can help you get there! This is especially true for those people who will be searching outside of OCI. For all that, I would personally come to law school again.

[Pablo Ramirez]

Wow-- It is telling to see how a cross section of people answered this question, across all strata of schools, grades, OCI experiences, etc.

I took a gamble when I came to law school. The conventional wisdom in these circles is that schools below the T14 are a huge risk at sticker, and before the crash, when more than 40% of my classmates were getting NLJ250 jobs (as per the NLJ250 report, not numbers put out by the school itself) I would have loudly argued with that. A gamble, sure, but a 43.7% chance at such a job, which the class of 2008 had, is not an awful risk to take. Even in leaner years, with the numbers in the 33-40% range, it's an educated risk. And of course, not everybody wants biglaw. Many of my friends would not have gone near OCI if you paid them, and it was not in my original game plan. For those who understand what the nonprofit hiring landscape is like, and have a suitable background, IBR + LRAP can make even $220K in loans manageable. It'll be gone in ten years, courtesy of the Federal government, and in the meantime, school will be picking up, or at least helping with the payments. Things are a bit different now, and we don't know where the biglaw line is. That makes it scary for people who do want it, because they don't have a sense of where they have to place in the class as we all await and hope for recovery.

Amy's response is the most credited so far. I would advise friends to consider their own backgrounds. Mine made me a hard sell to certain employers that otherwise seemed to like me and my law school credentials. In the end, I got the internship I have because it fit with the background I had prior to coming here. I thought I could run away from that background and start over, but no dice, and in the end I realize it was a blessing in disguise. Though I don't have an SA offer, I am still glad I came to law school. For a start, it's been one of the most amazing years of my life! I still maintain that people don't do enough research, and I was lucky things went as they did. I know I'm living a charmed life even though I don't have a directly illuminated path to full time employment post graduation. After everything I've seen, I know connections in my previous field can help me, and I am exceedingly grateful to have them. My advice to the next generation is to think long and hard about what you want, how you will pay for it, and who you know that can help you get there! This is especially true for those people who will be searching outside of OCI. For all that, I would personally come to law school again.

this is too long

[OperaSoprano]

Wow-- It is telling to see how a cross section of people answered this question, across all strata of schools, grades, OCI experiences, etc.

I took a gamble when I came to law school. The conventional wisdom in these circles is that schools below the T14 are a huge risk at sticker, and before the crash, when more than 40% of my classmates were getting NLJ250 jobs (as per the NLJ250 report, not numbers put out by the school itself) I would have loudly argued with that. A gamble, sure, but a 43.7% chance at such a job, which the class of 2008 had, is not an awful risk to take. Even in leaner years, with the numbers in the 33-40% range, it's an educated risk. And of course, not everybody wants biglaw. Many of my friends would not have gone near OCI if you paid them, and it was not in my original game plan. For those who understand what the nonprofit hiring landscape is like, and have a suitable background, IBR + LRAP can make even $220K in loans manageable. It'll be gone in ten years, courtesy of the Federal government, and in the meantime, school will be picking up, or at least helping with the payments. Things are a bit different now, and we don't know where the biglaw line is. That makes it scary for people who do want it, because they don't have a sense of where they have to place in the class as we all await and hope for recovery.

Amy's response is the most credited so far. I would advise friends to consider their own backgrounds. Mine made me a hard sell to certain employers that otherwise seemed to like me and my law school credentials. In the end, I got the internship I have because it fit with the background I had prior to coming here. I thought I could run away from that background and start over, but no dice, and in the end I realize it was a blessing in disguise. Though I don't have an SA offer, I am still glad I came to law school. For a start, it's been one of the most amazing years of my life! I still maintain that people don't do enough research, and I was lucky things went as they did. I know I'm living a charmed life even though I don't have a directly illuminated path to full time employment post graduation. After everything I've seen, I know connections in my previous field can help me, and I am exceedingly grateful to have them. My advice to the next generation is to think long and hard about what you want, how you will pay for it, and who you know that can help you get there! This is especially true for those people who will be searching outside of OCI. For all that, I would personally come to law school again.

this is too long

Then don't read it, at your pleasure.

[vanwinkle]

Shouldn't this poll just be renamed "Do you have an offer or a good chance at one?"

+1.

[Action Jackson]

Wow-- It is telling to see how a cross section of people answered this question, across all strata of schools, grades, OCI experiences, etc.

I took a gamble when I came to law school. The conventional wisdom in these circles is that schools below the T14 are a huge risk at sticker, and before the crash, when more than 40% of my classmates were getting NLJ250 jobs (as per the NLJ250 report, not numbers put out by the school itself) I would have loudly argued with that. A gamble, sure, but a 43.7% chance at such a job, which the class of 2008 had, is not an awful risk to take. Even in leaner years, with the numbers in the 33-40% range, it's an educated risk. And of course, not everybody wants biglaw. Many of my friends would not have gone near OCI if you paid them, and it was not in my original game plan. For those who understand what the nonprofit hiring landscape is like, and have a suitable background, IBR + LRAP can make even $220K in loans manageable. It'll be gone in ten years, courtesy of the Federal government, and in the meantime, school will be picking up, or at least helping with the payments. Things are a bit different now, and we don't know where the biglaw line is. That makes it scary for people who do want it, because they don't have a sense of where they have to place in the class as we all await and hope for recovery.

Amy's response is the most credited so far. I would advise friends to consider their own backgrounds. Mine made me a hard sell to certain employers that otherwise seemed to like me and my law school credentials. In the end, I got the internship I have because it fit with the background I had prior to coming here. I thought I could run away from that background and start over, but no dice, and in the end I realize it was a blessing in disguise. Though I don't have an SA offer, I am still glad I came to law school. For a start, it's been one of the most amazing years of my life! I still maintain that people don't do enough research, and I was lucky things went as they did. I know I'm living a charmed life even though I don't have a directly illuminated path to full time employment post graduation. After everything I've seen, I know connections in my previous field can help me, and I am exceedingly grateful to have them. My advice to the next generation is to think long and hard about what you want, how you will pay for it, and who you know that can help you get there! This is especially true for those people who will be searching outside of OCI. For all that, I would personally come to law school again.

this is too long

It's well worth the read. Wonderful post, OS.

[OperaSoprano]

It's well worth the read. Wonderful post, OS.

Thank you. I hope your experiences have been good so far!

[miamiman]

I simply wonder how many horrific OCI cycles it will take before 0Ls stop flooding admissions offices with their applications, ready to fork out cash hand over fist.

[bwv812]

.

[sperry]

I simply wonder how many horrific OCI cycles it will take before 0Ls stop flooding admissions offices with their applications, ready to fork out cash hand over fist.

It's not going to happen. Even in the best of times, schools outside of the T14 didn't have great placement rates, yet they were still flooded with applications. Today, the T14 still offers you a ~50% shot at a $160,000k starting job. For those of us with bullshit ug degrees, that 50% shot is still better than any alternatives. And this is coming from someone who took a shot and missed. I'm at a T14, below median, and won't end up with a big law SA.


As for whether I'd recommend it, it would depend. I wouldn't recommend leaving a decent career to go to law school, but if you have no better options, why not? However, I'd definitley recommend against any T14 aside from T6, unless you're hellbent on NYC big law. From doing research at firms, tons of young associates at Texas firms are from Houston, Baylor, SMU law, tons of Philly associates are from Temple and Villanova, California associates from various non Boalt/Stanford schools out there. I feel like if I could get top 1/3 at MVPBDCNG, then I could probably get top 5% + LR at a University of Houston or Temple and still be able to get big law. Paying sticker seems like a really bad idea when placements aren't particularly great.

[wiseowl]

Wow-- It is telling to see how a cross section of people answered this question, across all strata of schools, grades, OCI experiences, etc.

I took a gamble when I came to law school. The conventional wisdom in these circles is that schools below the T14 are a huge risk at sticker, and before the crash, when more than 40% of my classmates were getting NLJ250 jobs (as per the NLJ250 report, not numbers put out by the school itself) I would have loudly argued with that. A gamble, sure, but a 43.7% chance at such a job, which the class of 2008 had, is not an awful risk to take. Even in leaner years, with the numbers in the 33-40% range, it's an educated risk. And of course, not everybody wants biglaw. Many of my friends would not have gone near OCI if you paid them, and it was not in my original game plan. For those who understand what the nonprofit hiring landscape is like, and have a suitable background, IBR + LRAP can make even $220K in loans manageable. It'll be gone in ten years, courtesy of the Federal government, and in the meantime, school will be picking up, or at least helping with the payments. Things are a bit different now, and we don't know where the biglaw line is. That makes it scary for people who do want it, because they don't have a sense of where they have to place in the class as we all await and hope for recovery.

Amy's response is the most credited so far. I would advise friends to consider their own backgrounds. Mine made me a hard sell to certain employers that otherwise seemed to like me and my law school credentials. In the end, I got the internship I have because it fit with the background I had prior to coming here. I thought I could run away from that background and start over, but no dice, and in the end I realize it was a blessing in disguise. Though I don't have an SA offer, I am still glad I came to law school. For a start, it's been one of the most amazing years of my life! I still maintain that people don't do enough research, and I was lucky things went as they did. I know I'm living a charmed life even though I don't have a directly illuminated path to full time employment post graduation. After everything I've seen, I know connections in my previous field can help me, and I am exceedingly grateful to have them. My advice to the next generation is to think long and hard about what you want, how you will pay for it, and who you know that can help you get there! This is especially true for those people who will be searching outside of OCI. For all that, I would personally come to law school again.

There are too many people coming to law school who plan to use IBR/LRAP as a crutch. This could be a disastrous decision. Yes, the loans are "forgiven", but that's generally only in an LRAP program, and those generally aren't in ten year timeframes. The tax consequences of IBR make that option extremely unpalatable.

[jawko]

Going in, I was one of those I'm-gonna-be-a-lawyer, warnings be damned! types. I genuinely am interested in a lot of what I study, but I am seriously regretting this decision now.

I'll break it down this way: I chose the higher ranked school based on teh NLJ percentiles, figuring knowing myself I might mess up even against easy competition. Based on my grades I think I was right (my grades were good but I made mistakes that would have cost me at any school- not being graded down against the curve). However, I was well within the percentage that should have been good enough to land a firm job based on every indicator going in. Needless to say, I struck out at OCI. It's a horrible feeling realizing I gambled my future on a dream that I will most likely never attain (a good job to pay off my loans fast and transition into a well-respected field later).


This is what I would recommend: if you want to go to law school, do it. BUT, ask yourself this: if I ended up unemployed after law school, would my parents/savings/significant other have my back, be able to pay off my loans, and be able to support me? If not, go wherever you get a full-ride. Your mental health will be a thousand times better off for it. If you have the financial resources to whether the hit of your tuition at a better school, by all means go there.

[JazzOne]

I'm teaching an LSAT course now, and I tell my students every day not to go to law school. And that's coming from someone who had a 1L SA.

[OperaSoprano]

There are too many people coming to law school who plan to use IBR/LRAP as a crutch. This could be a disastrous decision. Yes, the loans are "forgiven", but that's generally only in an LRAP program, and those generally aren't in ten year timeframes. The tax consequences of IBR make that option extremely unpalatable.

To clarify: IBR forgiveness is treated as taxable income if you are not working in a nonprofit job. In this scenario, it is forgiven after 25 years. There has been talk of changing the tax structure, because there is a possibility of a large tax bill if significant debt remains, making this less than a true forgiveness of debt. For those working at nonprofits, however, there is no tax bill to be paid, and the debt is forgiven after ten years. Combined with most schools' LRAPs, that isn't a bad deal for someone committed to the public interest.