F1 student in law school --> Lawyer? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have a friend who is at my top 14 law school with an MBA, but his status is that of an "F1 Student" (temporary visa).

I personally think he's setting himself up for a lifetime of debt, and is going to stonewall into a situation where law firms aren't going to shell out a sponsorship for a green card for him. His plan is to not tell them about his immigration status, and just "work it out" with HR - but I think he's going to be headed into a dead end situation here, and I really want to figure this out on his behalf because he's my good friend.

I think his plan is not exactly ethical, it is putting the employer in a sticky predicament, I'm vaguely familiar with the laws - I do believe the employer has a burden to show that there are not enough Americans that can fill the position for which the green card is being applied for - and I'm dead sure that's not the case for the legal industry, where there's probably ten times as many lawyers as there is legal work.

Does anyone know anyone else at their law school who is on this "student visa" status - I know tons of engineering kids who do it and get H1b visas and then a green card, but that's in an area where there aren't many US people to begin with.

Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

MBA in law school at a T14, and he can't find someone to marry him? Fuck it, I'll marry him, and I'm a straight!

[Anonymous User]

MBA in law school at a T14, and he can't find someone to marry him? Fuck it, I'll marry him, and I'm a straight!

MBA(top5)+t14, maybe good shots at law jobs, but not really at sponsorship
MBA(non top 5) + t14, I'm not really sure this is any better than straight up t14

[Anonymous User]

Whether he can get a sponsorship largely depends on whether he can find a job. I am pretty sure most US mid-big law firms have prior experiences hiring foreign nationals, and his situation is not unique.

That being said, whether he can get a job ITE is a different story. I think being a foreign national makes him a little bit harder to be hired by some firms with decent but mostly local practices, and a little bit easier (that again depends on his nationality and foreign language skills) to be employed by some other firms with overseas offices. Being a foreign national is like a soft factor, and it can be treated positive or negative depending on the employers.

[Anonymous User]

I really caution any F1 kid from throwing out a quarter of a million dollars into an American law school - please check the immigration laws before you do this.

Green cards aren't handed out to JDs - at all - I know one guy who graduated top of his class at U of C who is now a Constitutional Scholar - and he couldn't get a firm to "sponsor" him because they were unable to meet the procedural burdens for green card.

He ended up getting the Cato Institute to sponsor him.

[sophie316]

How does he have loans if he's not a US citizen? Did he get an american to guarantee them?

He shouldn't bank on getting greencard sponsored but a law firm will definitely sponsor an H1B and that's good for 6 years. By the end of that he can either 1) get married or 2) look for a more niche job that will sponsor a greencard (although that will be complicated for a number of reasons not least the problem of changing jobs on an H1B and timing it just right so that he puts in enough time at the firm but has enough time get the greencard at the new place before 6 years are up, but theoretically doable).

[Anonymous User]

but a law firm will definitely sponsor an H1B

I'm not so sure about this. H1B's a path to permanent residency and it's restricted in number for the private sector. Why would a firm go through the trouble of dealing with this when there are plenty of other US candidates out there?

[applepiecrust]

Related question: is it then worth it to go to law school in the US as a non-US citizen/permanent resident at all, then?
I've aksed this before, but not really received concrete answers.

I do want to be a lawyer, but I don't want to get a second bachelors degree (LLB). I'm also an undergrad student in the US.

My concerns are:
1. it's hard enough to get a good legal job ITE as it is, so it would probably be even harder to get one as a non-American, who would require an H1B visa. As other posters said, why would a firm take someone they have to bear the additional burden of sponsoring a visa for, when there's no shortage of qualified Americans?
2. Even if one were to get an H1B visa, there's the chance of being left high and dry when it comes time to get sponsorship for a green card.
3. Unfortunately, marriage to a US citizen is not an option (unless it were a marriage of convenience, and even in that case, it's going to be hard to pull off and completely unethical).

Does anyone have any idea about the prospect of getting employment with either American law firms overseas, or getting employment as in-house counsel with American corporations overseas (obviously, not straight out of law school, but after a few years of experience)? I'm just worried about how I should best negotiate the system and not find myself in a raw position a few years on. I am debt-averse and would be looking to fund law school with savings, scholarships, and parents' contributions (Where will I find an American co-signer for loans anyway?).

[sophie316]

As far as I can tell, reasons to be cautious/not go to law school as a non US citizen:

1) You want public interest. Very few NGOs/public defenders etc, if any, are going to sponsor a visa. I asked the public interest office at my law school and they could only name one person who had successfully gotten a PI org to sponsor a visa, and that person had to pay for the lawyer to do it themselves, and it was only for a two year fellowship.
2) You definitely, categorically, 100% want to stay in America for more than 6 years. Once your H1B 6 year allotment is up you have to leave the US for at least a year if you don’t have a greencard. Some firms will transfer you somewhere else for a year and bring you back, but obviously a lot won’t.
3) You want the ability to move jobs easily. You’re basically tethered to your employer, and if you quit/they fire you you have something like 60 days to find another job or leave the country. (maybe less I’m not 100% sure)
4) You’re not going to a school that will allow you to get a biglaw(maybe midlaw) job. It seems like firms will sponsor H1Bs…relative to what they pay you the cost of a visa is negligible, and they have people in house who can take care of it easily. You’re also exempt from the normal cap bc you have a US graduate degree meaning you’re far far less likely to be shut out of the lottery.

Note you can clerk as an int student(how hard/easy it is I am not sure but it is doable).

[thistimereborn]

From what I hear being an F1 student (which is what I am) is not an issue for biglaw unless:

1) You don't speak English fluently or have a heavy accent that gets in the way of your communication.
2) You have no ties to the U.S. whatsoever and your resume is almost entirely foreign and makes it look like you want to work in the U.S. briefly and then abandon ship.
3) There is another candidate who is virtually identical to you but is a U.S. Citizen.

Big law firms don't care much about your nationality because it's not difficult or expensive to get you a work visa.

[Anonymous User]

I feel this discussion is largely about whether going to law school as a foreign national is credited ITT. Most people agree that firms hire foreign nationals and are able to sponsor their H1Bs, but it is true that they dont sponsor green cards, so you will have to think of your exit options early in your career even assuming you are managed to get a job at the first place.
For those people who dont plan on stayin at US long term (because the economy sucks anyways) or planning on lateral transfer to their home country later on, I dont see a big issue there.

[tome]

I have a related question. I am a foreigner, but I am on a green card. Because it is dead obvious that I am not American (Australian accent) and employers cannot ask me about it, I have my immigration status on my resume. However, in mock interview and when my careers councilor read it, they both commented on how weird it is to see on a resume. Anyone have any experience with this?

[thistimereborn]

I have a related question. I am a foreigner, but I am on a green card. Because it is dead obvious that I am not American (Australian accent) and employers cannot ask me about it, I have my immigration status on my resume. However, in mock interview and when my careers councilor read it, they both commented on how weird it is to see on a resume. Anyone have any experience with this?

I've heard that you should not mention it at all, especially since they cannot ask. Also the fact that the career councilors and mock interviewers commented on it should make it pretty clear that you should take it off.

Also there are definitely people with accents who are American. Maybe you're a dual citizen. Maybe you were nationalized after birth.

[jp0094]

am I the only one who thought f1 was going to be a student with a felony? haha

[tome]

I have a related question. I am a foreigner, but I am on a green card. Because it is dead obvious that I am not American (Australian accent) and employers cannot ask me about it, I have my immigration status on my resume. However, in mock interview and when my careers councilor read it, they both commented on how weird it is to see on a resume. Anyone have any experience with this?

I've heard that you should not mention it at all, especially since they cannot ask. Also the fact that the career councilors and mock interviewers commented on it should make it pretty clear that you should take it off.

Also there are definitely people with accents who are American. Maybe you're a dual citizen. Maybe you were nationalized after birth.

But this is precisely the problem. They are not allowed to ask, but might not hire you because of it. Where did you hear that you should not mention it? I appreciate your response, but I just can't see how not being allowed to ask is a reason not to tell.

[straxen]

I have a related question. I am a foreigner, but I am on a green card. Because it is dead obvious that I am not American (Australian accent) and employers cannot ask me about it, I have my immigration status on my resume. However, in mock interview and when my careers councilor read it, they both commented on how weird it is to see on a resume. Anyone have any experience with this?

I've heard that you should not mention it at all, especially since they cannot ask. Also the fact that the career councilors and mock interviewers commented on it should make it pretty clear that you should take it off.

Also there are definitely people with accents who are American. Maybe you're a dual citizen. Maybe you were nationalized after birth.

But this is precisely the problem. They are not allowed to ask, but might not hire you because of it. Where did you hear that you should not mention it? I appreciate your response, but I just can't see how not being allowed to ask is a reason not to tell.

They can absolutely ask if you are a US Citizen or Permanent Resident (though they can't ask which), in your case, you say yes and they'll probably just assume you're a Permanent Resident.

As to the OP's question...my partner is on an H1B and on the way to getting a green card and let me tell you that it is no easy task. You might be able to get the H1B for 6 years, but if you don't get married in that time to a US Citizen, the only way to immigrate permanently after the H1B is up (or to continue renewing the H1B after 6 years--which can be done, my partner has been here 9 years on an H1B) is to get Permanent Labor Certification, which theoretically certifies that no US person can be found to do your job. I would think it would be difficult to get this certification for many legal jobs, I don't know if anyone has any evidence that this has been accomplished. I personally wouldn't consider law school in the US for a second if I weren't a US Citizen or Green Card Holder.

[NewHere]

but a law firm will definitely sponsor an H1B

I'm not so sure about this. H1B's a path to permanent residency and it's restricted in number for the private sector. Why would a firm go through the trouble of dealing with this when there are plenty of other US candidates out there?

Large law firms really don't care. It costs them a few thousand dollars to apply for an H1B visa, but in the grand scheme of things that's nothing to them. It's the equivalent of letting an associate start a week or two early. A drop in the bucket.

NGOs are not bound by H1B quotas, so that's easier too.

I think the only place where it could be an issue is small firms, who don't have the kind of recruiting budget that large firms do.

Greencards are a different matter, as others have pointed out above, but once you have an H1B visa you're set for six years (unless you get fired), and that should be enough for most people to pay off, or put a big dent into, their law-school loans.