The practice of law is nothing like Law and Order, is it? Forum

[Veyron]

A few weeks ago I met with an attorney who practices capital defense, the stories he told me make Boston Legal and Law and Order look tame in comparison. Oh, and not only does he go to court, he goes two to three times a day. Where does this notion that all fields of law involve riding a desk and filling out form 16b come from? I mean, obviously, lots of biglaw is like that but it seems foolish that this forum constantly rebukes those who believe that the practice of law can be a bit more eventful.

[ConMan345]

It's all about criminal defense. I worked in a cd firm for a while and it was very dramatic. True stories make TV seem unimaginative.

[appaws]

I have a friend who is a prosecutor. She told me that the things that happen in an hour of a Law and Order episode might actually happen, but since real cases are spread over months and years, the things the layperson might find exciting are not happening very often. She said that most cases are settled with pleas and that she spends most of her time writing motions, meeting with people, and talking on the phone.

[A'nold]

Because peeps on here have t14 biglaw tunnel vision.

[AJRESQ]

The money is in civil law, though. Prosecutors only make like $38k - $45k a year. Criminal defense usually requires a few years as a prosecutor or a PD. I went to law school to be a prosecutor and ended up in complex commercial litigation. I often regret not going into prosecution, but I don't think I could afford it.

That said, I don't care what anyone says... I have seen the CRAZIEST stuff in civil litigation. Stuff that criminal defense attorneys are like "...wha??" This stuff can be really interesting. People who do insurance defense or something see the same stuff in and out, but the work we do in my field can often be crazy dramatic.

[Veyron]

The money is in civil law, though. Prosecutors only make like $38k - $45k a year. Criminal defense usually requires a few years as a prosecutor or a PD. I went to law school to be a prosecutor and ended up in complex commercial litigation. I often regret not going into prosecution, but I don't think I could afford it.

That said, I don't care what anyone says... I have seen the CRAZIEST stuff in civil litigation. Stuff that criminal defense attorneys are like "...wha??" This stuff can be really interesting. People who do insurance defense or something see the same stuff in and out, but the work we do in my field can often be crazy dramatic.

Example? (you can change names and details to protect the innocent)

[romothesavior]

1) The "big money" positions that people gun for don't involve a lot of courtroom work. The lawyers are in the courtroom are either exceptionally good at what they do and they put in their time and dues to get to where they're at, or they are PD/DA/PI people making little money. An entry-level DA or state's attorney is going to be working on basic motions and traffic violations, etc. There are exceptions, but few freshly minted JDs are going to be doing exciting stuff in the courtroom.

2) For all the time spent in the courtroom, there is far more time spent researching and preparing, which can often be very boring and tedious (depending on your personality and your interests).

3) The jobs like the one you describe are few and far between and getting into them can be very difficult.

I know I'm just a 0L, but this isn't just me spewing back TLS talking points... this is what I've been told by a lot of lawyers and things I've picked up while shadowing/interning with a judge and some state's attorneys.

No one is saying that interesting legal jobs aren't out there. It is just important for young grasshoppas (like myself) to keep in mind how tedious and unfulfilling many legal jobs are, and ITE, beggars can't be choosers. But again, a lot of this depends on your interests... some people love reading contracts and working on business-related law, others would go insane doing that and would prefer doing personal injury, DUI, criminal, etc.

[Veyron]

1) The "big money" positions that people gun for don't involve a lot of courtroom work. The lawyers are in the courtroom are either exceptionally good at what they do and they put in their time and dues to get to where they're at, or they are PD/DA/PI people making little money. An entry-level DA or state's attorney is going to be working on basic motions and traffic violations, etc. There are exceptions, but few freshly minted JDs are going to be doing exciting stuff in the courtroom.

2) For all the time spent in the courtroom, there is far more time spent researching and preparing, which can often be very boring and tedious (depending on your personality and your interests).

3) The jobs like the one you describe are few and far between and getting into them can be very difficult.

I know I'm just a 0L, but this isn't just me spewing back TLS talking points... this is what I've been told by a lot of lawyers and things I've picked up while shadowing/interning with a judge and some state's attorneys.

No one is saying that interesting legal jobs aren't out there. It is just important for young grasshoppas (like myself) to keep in mind how tedious and unfulfilling many legal jobs are, and ITE, beggars can't be choosers. But again, a lot of this depends on your interests... some people love reading contracts and working on business-related law, others would go insane doing that and would prefer doing personal injury, DUI, criminal, etc.

IDK man, the guy I talked to was in private practice. Seemed to do pretty well for himself money wise and like I said, he is in court 1-3 times a day (I imagine good quiet research would be a nice relief after that). Offered me a summer position too, does anyone know if a 1L summer in criminal defense could provide the requisite experience to enter the field after graduation and if not, what other steps I could take?

[romothesavior]

IDK man, the guy I talked to was in private practice. Seemed to do pretty well for himself money wise and like I said, he is in court 1-3 times a day (I imagine good quiet research would be a nice relief after that). Offered me a summer position too, does anyone know if a 1L summer in criminal defense could provide the requisite experience to enter the field after graduation and if not, what other steps I could take?

This sounds like one of those people who paid his dues and proved his worth. I think what most people are trying to get at when they say "law isn't like Boston Legal" is that many legal jobs are boring as shit if you aren't passionate for the little nuances in the law, and that you shouldn't expect to come right out of law school arguing before SCOTUS. Law is typically a profession that makes you pay your dues. I highly doubt this guy was snappin necks and cashin checks right out of law school.

[Veyron]

IDK man, the guy I talked to was in private practice. Seemed to do pretty well for himself money wise and like I said, he is in court 1-3 times a day (I imagine good quiet research would be a nice relief after that). Offered me a summer position too, does anyone know if a 1L summer in criminal defense could provide the requisite experience to enter the field after graduation and if not, what other steps I could take?

This sounds like one of those people who paid his dues and proved his worth. I think what most people are trying to get at when they say "law isn't like Boston Legal" is that many legal jobs are boring as shit if you aren't passionate for the little nuances in the law, and that you shouldn't expect to come right out of law school arguing before SCOTUS. Law is typically a profession that makes you pay your dues. I highly doubt this guy was snappin necks and cashin checks right out of law school.

Never said that he was, guy definitely paid his dues. I simply asked how I could get into private criminal defense without having to go through the shittiness of being a PD first.

[romothesavior]

Never said that he was, guy definitely paid his dues. I simply asked how I could get into private criminal defense without having to go through the shittiness of being a PD first.

Actually no, that isn't why this thread was started. I was responding to the topic of this thread.

Anyways, conventional wisdom says 1L employment doesn't have much impact on future employment, but I'd say that's geared more towards national employers like biglaw and government agencies. If this is something you're interested in, I'd say this dude sounds like a good contact to keep in touch with. Without knowing a whole host of other details, it is awfully hard to speculate on any of this. At this point, I'd focus more on getting good grades than anything else.

[Veyron]

Never said that he was, guy definitely paid his dues. I simply asked how I could get into private criminal defense without having to go through the shittiness of being a PD first.

Actually no, that isn't why this thread was started. I was responding to the topic of this thread.

Anyways, conventional wisdom says 1L employment doesn't have much impact on future employment, but I'd say that's geared more towards national employers like biglaw and government agencies. If this is something you're interested in, I'd say this dude sounds like a good contact to keep in touch with. Without knowing a whole host of other details, it is awfully hard to speculate on any of this. At this point, I'd focus more on getting good grades than anything else.

Silence peon, it is I who is lord of this thread!

[articulably suspect]

An entry-level DA or state's attorney is going to be working on basic motions and traffic violations, etc. There are exceptions, but few freshly minted JDs are going to be doing exciting stuff in the courtroom.

Says the OL who has never been in such a position...

Eye of the beholder, re: what is exciting...lead attorney in a cap murder trial, though, no. Advocating for the futures of your clients in court can be exciting...even if there is no blood involved.

Also, disagree with your basics comment, just depends on the office. Some offices will throw you in the mix right away.

[romothesavior]

An entry-level DA or state's attorney is going to be working on basic motions and traffic violations, etc. There are exceptions, but few freshly minted JDs are going to be doing exciting stuff in the courtroom.

Says the OL who has never been in such a position...

Eye of the beholder, re: what is exciting...lead attorney in a cap murder trial, though, no. Advocating for the futures of your clients in court can be exciting...even if there is no blood involved.

Also, disagree with your basics comment, just depends on the office. Some offices will throw you in the mix right away.

Well I'm sorry if that is misinformation, but that was what was told to me by two different state's attorneys offices and a judge who was a former prosecutor. All of them spoke of a hierarchy where the n00bs start out doing traffic court, low-level misdemeanor types of stuff, etc. and work their way up.

As always, I'm willing to be corrected by someone more "in the know," and I already granted that there are exceptions and what I said wasn't gospel truth, but I was trying to be helpful and pass along what I had been told by multiple sources who work for these agencies.

[XxSpyKEx]

1) The "big money" positions that people gun for don't involve a lot of courtroom work. The lawyers are in the courtroom are either exceptionally good at what they do and they put in their time and dues to get to where they're at, or they are PD/DA/PI people making little money. An entry-level DA or state's attorney is going to be working on basic motions and traffic violations, etc. There are exceptions, but few freshly minted JDs are going to be doing exciting stuff in the courtroom.

2) For all the time spent in the courtroom, there is far more time spent researching and preparing, which can often be very boring and tedious (depending on your personality and your interests).

3) The jobs like the one you describe are few and far between and getting into them can be very difficult.

I know I'm just a 0L, but this isn't just me spewing back TLS talking points... this is what I've been told by a lot of lawyers and things I've picked up while shadowing/interning with a judge and some state's attorneys.

No one is saying that interesting legal jobs aren't out there. It is just important for young grasshoppas (like myself) to keep in mind how tedious and unfulfilling many legal jobs are, and ITE, beggars can't be choosers. But again, a lot of this depends on your interests... some people love reading contracts and working on business-related law, others would go insane doing that and would prefer doing personal injury, DUI, criminal, etc.

Bullshit. I was going to volunteer for the local PD's office this summer (the hours didn't work out w/ my firm) and at orientation they said that LAW STUDENTS there have, with the consent of the accused, TRIED every type of case from misdemeanors to MURDER. Also, a clinic at my school does murder trials (i.e. the students do these under a supervising attorney). If students are trying murder cases, I can't imagine there's a lot that fresh out of law school public defenders don't do. It sounds like they just really need people to do the work because they are typically understaffed for the number of cases they have, so they can't have people just sitting on the sidelines for a couple years to learn how to try cases.

[Veyron]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

[A'nold]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

Sorry but wahhhh dude. I'm so sorry you won't get paid 100k+ to do something "fun."

I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Even prosecuting traffic violations would be more fun than 99% of what typical workers do. PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$. Life is not all biglaw folks.

Romo- this was not aimed at you but instead at the general sentiment on this site.

[StupidQuestions]

How should a 0L learn what real lawyers do? I read a lot on this board about how no one knows what biglaw is, or people don't know what other non-biglaw lawyers do. So how do you figure it out and get an accurate picture?

[Veyron]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

Sorry but wahhhh dude. I'm so sorry you won't get paid 100k+ to do something "fun."

I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Even prosecuting traffic violations would be more fun than 99% of what typical workers do. PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$. Life is not all biglaw folks.

Romo- this was not aimed at you but instead at the general sentiment on this site.

Yes, because no defense attorney ever breaks 100k. Thank you for enlightening me with your platitudes.

[Always Credited]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

Sorry but wahhhh dude. I'm so sorry you won't get paid 100k+ to do something "fun."

I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Even prosecuting traffic violations would be more fun than 99% of what typical workers do. PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$. Life is not all biglaw folks.

Romo- this was not aimed at you but instead at the general sentiment on this site.

Yes, because no defense attorney ever breaks 100k. Thank you for enlightening me with your platitudes.

Graduate law school, pass the bar, and open your own solo criminal defense firm. You've shown yourself to be intelligent and perceptive, you'll be fine.

[Veyron]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

Sorry but wahhhh dude. I'm so sorry you won't get paid 100k+ to do something "fun."

I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Even prosecuting traffic violations would be more fun than 99% of what typical workers do. PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$. Life is not all biglaw folks.

Romo- this was not aimed at you but instead at the general sentiment on this site.

Yes, because no defense attorney ever breaks 100k. Thank you for enlightening me with your platitudes.

Graduate law school, pass the bar, and open your own solo criminal defense firm. You've shown yourself to be intelligent and perceptive, you'll be fine.

I get more serious answers on Autoadmit for fuck's sake.

[Always Credited]

Be thankful you didn't post such comments there.

[A'nold]

Any way to do what above poster described out of law school w/o doing the pd thing?

Sorry but wahhhh dude. I'm so sorry you won't get paid 100k+ to do something "fun."

I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Even prosecuting traffic violations would be more fun than 99% of what typical workers do. PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$. Life is not all biglaw folks.

Romo- this was not aimed at you but instead at the general sentiment on this site.

Yes, because no defense attorney ever breaks 100k. Thank you for enlightening me with your platitudes.

Wow! Great use of nitpicking my post and completely changing the subject to make me look bad. Congrats to you.

It was overly obvious that we were all talking about starting salary. That even proves my point more, though, now that you bring it up. Not everything is biglaw and a 100k salary after 5 years in the public sector is still a GREAT living, regardless of what the privileged little UG pre-law kids on here believe.

[fenderjsm88]

PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$.

When I was growing up I knew of several personal injury lawyers that were millionaires. It's looked down upon by a lot of people in the legal community but a successful solo personal injury lawyer probably has one of the funnest and best-paying lawyering jobs out there.

[A'nold]

PI lawyers (personal injury) have incredibly interesting and fun cases and make $$$$$$$$$.

When I was growing up I knew of several personal injury lawyers that were millionaires. It's looked down upon by a lot of people in the legal community but a successful solo personal injury lawyer probably has one of the funnest and best-paying lawyering jobs out there.

Exactly. Now that I've worked with one of the best and most renowned in the country, I know this is what I want to do. It IS all it's cracked up to be and more.