How fatal is it to focus on one market alone? Forum

[dresden doll]

Apologies in advance if this topic has already been discussed and beaten to death.

I'm fairly unwilling to be flexible with my geographic location, and two out of the three markets I'm interested in are in all likelihood out of my reach. DC is incredibly competitive and SF too small and isolated. Plus, it has apparently been particularly decimated by the economy. (From what I've seen on this board, Boalt came out at 30 percent at last year's OCI - not sure that the figure is quite correct but it's worrying that it's even tossed around in the first place). That leaves me with NYC.

How badly would I be screwing myself if I bid virtually entirely on NYC locations?

[prezidentv8]

SF too small and isolated. Plus, it has apparently been particularly decimated by the economy. (From what I've seen on this board, Boalt came out at 30 percent at last year's OCI - not sure that the figure is quite correct but it's worrying that it's even tossed around in the first place).

[markymark]

Apologies in advance if this topic has already been discussed and beaten to death.

I'm fairly unwilling to be flexible with my geographic location, and two out of the three markets I'm interested in are in all likelihood out of my reach. DC is incredibly competitive and SF too small and isolated. Plus, it has apparently been particularly decimated by the economy. (From what I've seen on this board, Boalt came out at 30 percent at last year's OCI - not sure that the figure is quite correct but it's worrying that it's even tossed around in the first place). That leaves me with NYC.

How badly would I be screwing myself if I bid virtually entirely on NYC locations?

If you strike out in NYC, you would most likely not have received offers in SF or DC barring some kind of niche connection to those cities.

Most people I know are basically bidding entirely on one city (mostly NY).

[dresden doll]

If you strike out in NYC, you would most likely not have received offers in SF or DC barring some kind of niche connection to those cities.

Right. Which is why I'm thinking on focusing on NYC alone and entirely forgoing those two. To be frank, I'd probably prefer it over DC and SF anyway.

I did not realize that many people bid on one city alone. It was actually my impression that people sprinkled their bid lists with secondary market firms and that focusing on one market alone is highly risky ITE.

[markymark]

If you strike out in NYC, you would most likely not have received offers in SF or DC barring some kind of niche connection to those cities.

Right. Which is why I'm thinking on focusing on NYC alone and entirely forgoing those two. To be frank, I'd probably prefer it over DC and SF anyway.

I did not realize that many people bid on one city alone. It was actually my impression that people sprinkled their bid lists with secondary market firms and that focusing on one market alone is highly risky ITE.

Well even at national schools, some peoples home market does not even go to on campus interviewing (For example, there are no Minneapolis or Portland, Oregon firms going to Penn this year) so they really don't bid on that market - they just mass mail. I definitely think you should mass mail your home secondary market. That being said, I realize that for a lot of people, their secondary market isn't really "secondary" and isn't easier to get than NYC.

At least at Penn, the main strategies seem to be:

NYC only.

NYC and DC (tends to be the very good grades crowd).

NYC and Home market.

[dresden doll]

Well even at national schools, some peoples home market does not even go to on campus interviewing (For example, there are no Minneapolis or Portland, Oregon firms going to Penn this year) so they really don't bid on that market - they just mass mail. I definitely think you should mass mail your home secondary market. That being said, I realize that for a lot of people, their secondary market isn't really "secondary" and isn't easier to get than NYC.

At least at Penn, the main strategies seem to be:

NYC only.

NYC and DC.

NYC and Home market.

Gotcha. Thanks, that's pretty helpful.

I suppose that, given my school, it might be wise to spend a few bids interviewing with Chi offices. I'm just really not crazy about this city. That said, I don't want to be spoiled either. A job in a secondary market/disliked city >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no job.

[IzziesGal]

The problem with sprinkling bids across different markets is that firms really want you to have a connection to the city you're applying to. I am not sure if your career office mentioned this, but it's so true. I interviewed with three firms for 1L summer, and one flat out told me that they won't hire people without connections to NY because they don't want to spend the time and money on someone who just wants the chance to live there for a summer (luckily I am from there and worked there for years before law school). I also lost out on another opportunity because I didn't have connections to the area (I was told they were really looking for people with an established connection to the city and that it was a big factor....I had never been there, had no family there, etc). So I wouldn't waste bids applying to cities just for fun unless you are from the region or worked there.

[bizen boat]

Basing this on completely nothing, I bet people who sprinkled applications about and struck out attributed it to spreading themselves too thin, while those who concentrated on a single market and struck out blamed a lack of variety or the fact that the one place they applied to was "particularly hard hit" (which I've heard about every city aside from NY and I guess places in Texas).

Personally, I'd feel more secure focusing on two markets: NYC and the market to which I have connections (Chicago in my case). This seems less likely to result in wasting a perfectly good bid.

Edit: regarding what Izzie said above, I was always under the impression that NYC didn't care about ties. So much for that idea

[dresden doll]

Izzie, are you talking about NY in general or NYC specifically? That might make some difference.

The tie thing is highly problematic for me because I'm originally from another country and have no family in the United States at all. I didn't even live here until after high school. Consequently, the only 'ties' I might be said to have are those I acquired via school choices. I went to a UG in Midwest and I'm at Chi now. The misfortune, however, is that I never intended to live in Midwest - in fact, I'd like to get the hell out of here as soon as possible.

[Anonymous User]

Apologies in advance if this topic has already been discussed and beaten to death.

I'm fairly unwilling to be flexible with my geographic location, and two out of the three markets I'm interested in are in all likelihood out of my reach. DC is incredibly competitive and SF too small and isolated. Plus, it has apparently been particularly decimated by the economy. (From what I've seen on this board, Boalt came out at 30 percent at last year's OCI - not sure that the figure is quite correct but it's worrying that it's even tossed around in the first place). That leaves me with NYC.

How badly would I be screwing myself if I bid virtually entirely on NYC locations?

I see bidding as balancing a couple of factors -- chance of getting interview and chance of getting hired. The problem with popular markets is if you look at past year OCIs, you are unlikely to get interviews everywhere since slots will fill up (even though there may be more slots). Of course, the issue with SF is that it has been devastated in terms of class size, so even if you get an interview, there aren't as many slots in the class to go around. That said, for whatever reason, proportionately there are still a lot out of out-of-CA students in the classes. This suggests that the sacrifice has been made by Hastings and to a lesser extent maybe Berkeley.

On the other hand, where 2009 showed particularly small SF classes, I bid on LA instead (I can come up with a plausible reason to go there) and I did include a little NYC.

Not sure how helpful this is

[Anonymous User]

Izzie, are you talking about NY in general or NYC specifically? That might make some difference.

The tie thing is highly problematic for me because I'm originally from another country and have no family in the United States at all. I didn't even live here until after high school. Consequently, the only 'ties' I might be said to have are those I acquired via school choices. I went to a UG in Midwest and I'm at Chi now. The misfortune, however, is that I never intended to live in Midwest - in fact, I'd like to get the hell out of here as soon as possible.

fwiw, I haven't met an SA at an SF office yet this summer who didn't have some ties to the Bay Area (i.e. if they were from an out of state school).

[drdolittle]

Can't answer OPs question, but isn't this really about school and class rank? Or are these factors no longer determinant ITE?

[dresden doll]

Izzie, are you talking about NY in general or NYC specifically? That might make some difference.

The tie thing is highly problematic for me because I'm originally from another country and have no family in the United States at all. I didn't even live here until after high school. Consequently, the only 'ties' I might be said to have are those I acquired via school choices. I went to a UG in Midwest and I'm at Chi now. The misfortune, however, is that I never intended to live in Midwest - in fact, I'd like to get the hell out of here as soon as possible.

fwiw, I haven't met an SA at an SF office yet this summer who didn't have some ties to the Bay Area (i.e. if they were from an out of state school).

I too heard that ties were crucial for NorCal. This is why I've nearly abandoned that effort. I'm just concerned that focusing solely on NYC will screw me over.

[General Tso]

Do you think an OOS undergrad is going to hurt my resume in applying for NorCal firms? (I attend Hastings)

[bizen boat]

I can understand the rationale behind the "ties" concept, but it still seems preposterous to me. Sure, someone might leave the firm to return to their home region, but it's just as likely a local kid will leave the firm for a competing firm in the same city, which would be worse right? Or just leave for an in-house position, leave the law entirely, etc. Traditionally, the turnover rate is so high at big firms that the whole exercise of predicting who's likely to stay seems silly. The discriminatory effects on people from out of the country (or someone from Bumblefuck, SD who wants to make it in the big city) only compound the problem.

[IzziesGal]

Izzie, are you talking about NY in general or NYC specifically? That might make some difference.

The tie thing is highly problematic for me because I'm originally from another country and have no family in the United States at all. I didn't even live here until after high school. Consequently, the only 'ties' I might be said to have are those I acquired via school choices. I went to a UG in Midwest and I'm at Chi now. The misfortune, however, is that I never intended to live in Midwest - in fact, I'd like to get the hell out of here as soon as possible.

NYC specifically, but it also applies to other markets. For instance, I have 0 ties to Chicago and Seattle. My husband and I would LOVE to live in those cities, but most of the ads up on my law school's career site specifically say they want people with ties to the area.

You're situation is totally different, though, and I don't think you need to worry. I don't think the same rules apply when you're coming from another country and starting fresh.

Edit: I personally think the ties thing sucks. I don't know how representative this is of every firm (or even most firms), so I wouldn't let it discourage anyone too much!!!

[legends159]

w/ no ties to SF don't waste a bid there. If I were you I would just bid NYC. Actually I am doing that. Chicago places well into NYC firms and NYC firms generally have bigger summer classes. I think it's better to bid on one regional area and sell the same reason you want to be in that region to all the firms involved. While people say ties don't matter to NYC, and it probably doesn't, it's still a conversation killer if you can't talk about why you want to work and live in NYC.

[Voyager]

Apologies in advance if this topic has already been discussed and beaten to death.

I'm fairly unwilling to be flexible with my geographic location, and two out of the three markets I'm interested in are in all likelihood out of my reach. DC is incredibly competitive and SF too small and isolated. Plus, it has apparently been particularly decimated by the economy. (From what I've seen on this board, Boalt came out at 30 percent at last year's OCI - not sure that the figure is quite correct but it's worrying that it's even tossed around in the first place). That leaves me with NYC.

How badly would I be screwing myself if I bid virtually entirely on NYC locations?

There are a ton of opportunities in NYC... probably enough at your OCI to fill your bid list.

[General Tso]

w/ no ties to SF don't waste a bid there. If I were you I would just bid NYC. Actually I am doing that. Chicago places well into NYC firms and NYC firms generally have bigger summer classes. I think it's better to bid on one regional area and sell the same reason you want to be in that region to all the firms involved. While people say ties don't matter to NYC, and it probably doesn't, it's still a conversation killer if you can't talk about why you want to work and live in NYC.

I don't understand what they want to hear when talking about "ties"....wouldn't some bs about the excitement and energy of living in the biggest city in the US be enough? to work with the biggest firms, to be near Wall Street, etc.?

Or to say that while you don't like the high COL in SF you feel that its advantages (weather, natural beauty, progressive politics, whatever) outweigh the costs?

Or do you have say "already bought a house" before they take you seriously?

[dresden doll]

I can understand the rationale behind the "ties" concept, but it still seems preposterous to me. Sure, someone might leave the firm to return to their home region, but it's just as likely a local kid will leave the firm for a competing firm in the same city, which would be worse right? Or just leave for an in-house position, leave the law entirely, etc. Traditionally, the turnover rate is so high at big firms that the whole exercise of predicting who's likely to stay seems silly. The discriminatory effects on people from out of the country (or someone from Bumblefuck, SD who wants to make it in the big city) only compound the problem.

Do not even get me started on the 'tie' rant. The Midwest ties I've created have been entirely inadvertent. I want to flee at the earliest opportunity; yet somehow I can apparently expect that no one will believe me when I say so.

Izzie, you're a ray of sunshine, but I am not sure that different rules will apply in my case. I've been here for years now - I cannot exactly claim to be starting fresh at this point.

Your experience with NYC bears out what one of the CSO people here said, however. I still want to think that NYC firms aren't overly concerned with ties but the suspicion has been gnawing at me.

[270910]

No time to read thread now, but chiming in with my usual "all I have heard is that the more market focused a candidate was, the better they did at OCI" - i.e. it is the opposite of fatal to focus on one market.

[prezidentv8]

Semi-related note here.

Career-wise, I am very California-centric. VERY. There is almost no chance I'd want to leave, even for a better job, although I think a Philly or DC application here and there still might get tossed to employers that I really like.

Anyway - As of now, I plan on entirely ignoring NYC as I have no particular reason to want to go there. This thread so far leads me to believe that such a course of action would be sacrilegious. Am I nuts for not wanting New York at all?

[dresden doll]

This thread so far leads me to believe that such a course of action would be sacrilegious. Am I nuts for not wanting New York at all?

Didn't you grow up/attended UG in NorCal? I don't see why the thread would let you to believe that NYC = credited course of action.

[legends159]

w/ no ties to SF don't waste a bid there. If I were you I would just bid NYC. Actually I am doing that. Chicago places well into NYC firms and NYC firms generally have bigger summer classes. I think it's better to bid on one regional area and sell the same reason you want to be in that region to all the firms involved. While people say ties don't matter to NYC, and it probably doesn't, it's still a conversation killer if you can't talk about why you want to work and live in NYC.

I don't understand what they want to hear when talking about "ties"....wouldn't some bs about the excitement and energy of living in the biggest city in the US be enough? to work with the biggest firms, to be near Wall Street, etc.?

Or to say that while you don't like the high COL in SF you feel that its advantages (weather, natural beauty, progressive politics, whatever) outweigh the costs?

Or do you have say "already bought a house" before they take you seriously?

When I interviewed at SF firms they asked questions about the area expecting me to just run with the conversation about how I enjoy this restaurant...or how there is a really funky cafe in that part of town etc.

I'm sure that if you've never been to NYC and you try to talk about it, all you can speak about are generalities. Of course you can drop a general statement like I like the convenience or whatever and then segway the conversation somewhere else, but it's a good way to break the ice to ask the interviewer if s/he has eaten at this restaurant or visited xyz and then go from there. People want to hear stories in an interview and have a conversation with you. If you don't know the area well enough and you just speak in generalities, you won't come across as well as someone who can be more engaging and confident about the area.

[prezidentv8]

This thread so far leads me to believe that such a course of action would be sacrilegious. Am I nuts for not wanting New York at all?

Didn't you grow up/attended UG in NorCal? I don't see why the thread would let you to believe that NYC = credited course of action.

I dunno I just feel like everyone wants or is planning on bidding on NYC.

Edit: grammar, i think