total OCI novice and very confused - a GULC transfer Forum

[Anonymous User]

Ok - I'm a bit overwhelmed by everything when it comes to making my bid list.

Firstly, I have no idea how I am going to fare as a transfer at GULC, and OCS has not been that helpful either. I am top 10-15% from a t20 school, but I really have no idea how that is going to play out/how firms are going to look at that. OCS told me to treat this like a 3.3-3.4 for a GULC student. Does this sound right?

With that assumption, I based my bid list on past years OCI at GULC - my bid list is made almost exsclusivley of firms with past GPA medians in the 3.3-3.4 range. I also tried to pick firms that in prior years had low bid to interview ratios. My top 15 bids has 9 firms from SF (which is where I hope to work, where I did my undergrad, and where I want to live) and all of my other bids are for NYC.

I am concerned though, as all of my top 20 bids are v100 firms, and more than half are v50. Five of them are V20. My goal is to get a job through OCI at any cost. Is bidding on such highly ranked firms a stupid mistake given the economy, the fact that I go to GULC, and the fact that I am a transfer student? Or should I ignore the vault rankings and focus only on the firms GPA range and past number of bids/interviews?

Final question - I've realized that basically all of the SA classes for SF are tiny compared to NYC, which is not surprising. Does this make getting those jobs more competitive or about the same as NYC jobs given that way more people want NYC positions?

THANK YOU

[doctoroflaw]

I wouldn't worry too much about vault ranking - it is only a proxy. Every firm has its own idiosyncrasies for students at different schools and it isn't perfectly correlated with vault rank. A V25 firm will generally have higher requirements than a V50 from the looks of it and logically, but that doesn't always hold. There are plenty of firms whose GPA median/max are out of place with their vault ranking. Generalizations are helpful when you don't have the GPA and bidding information but here you have the GPA information and should put some faith into it.

The thing that will have the biggest impact on you will be how the firms treat your top 15% grades at a T20 relative to the rest of the students who competed on the curve 1L. I think treating it as median makes some sense, but that will be the biggest variable. Maybe current 3Ls who transferred can shine more light on where transfers generally fell.

I wouldn't throw in too many firms with GPA medians above 3.4, but it could make sense to diversify a little with firms in the 3.0 - 3.3 range. You have an advantage bidding SF/NYC as there is a lot less demand among the students for those locations. Good luck

[treeey86]

stop the presses....

you transferred from a t20 at the top of your class to a school that at best is 6 ranks higher and happens to not be located in the market you prefer to work at?

Top 15% of a T20 will probably fare better than median at GULC in both SF and NYC. Do you really have a very compelling reason to be in DC or did you get sucked into T14 prestige whoring?

[Anonymous User]

stop the presses....

you transferred from a t20 at the top of your class to a school that at best is 6 ranks higher and happens to not be located in the market you prefer to work at?

Top 15% of a T20 will probably fare better than median at GULC in both SF and NYC. Do you really have a very compelling reason to be in DC or did you get sucked into T14 prestige whoring?

To be totally honest, yes, I did get sucked into the t14 prestige whoring. Its hard to be on TLS and not be infected by it.

That being said, I do have some compelling reasons to transfer. For one, my t20 is in a city I really would prefer not live in. I'm just not a fan. Secondly, I've wanted to live in DC (at least for awhile) forever, and applying to schools initially, GULC was my absolute top choice. Thirdly, I think, having done the research, that GULC places better in SF then my t20 does. GULC's OCI is of course, much, much larger. I also would have basically a 0% chance of a NYC job at my t20, and I really, really like having that possibility at GULC.

Not to say I'm not having doubts, especially given ITE. I'm giving up a $10,000 a year scholarship and excellent job chances in my t20's market, which places great there, and from what I can tell, at least ok in SF. I'm actually thinking about sticking around, though I skipped the write on (thinking I'd just do it at GULC), so that sucks.

Any thoughts on this?

[Anonymous User]

Bump, I'm curious too

[Anonymous User]

I'm also a transfer applicant who has since come to his senses and decided to stay and dominate OCI at my original school. ...especially in this job market, why not

[Bankhead]

I can't figure out if OP's original school is USC or WUSTL...

[chitown825]

I can't figure out if OP's original school is USC or WUSTL...

If it's in California he's a moron. It might be Vanderbilt or Texas--those towns aren't for everyone.

[LawSchoolWannaBe]

I can't figure out if OP's original school is USC or WUSTL...

If it's in California he's a moron. It might be Vanderbilt or Texas--those towns aren't for everyone.

Absent the most ridiculous circumstances it would be silly to be top 10% at UT/Vandy and transfer to Georgetown. Must be WUSTL.

[rando]

I would've transferred to UCLA or Berk. Oh well. I'm not OP. More power to you. Hopefully it will all pan out.

My own inclination would be to bid more conservative than aggressive. It is better to be at a V100 with a job than shoot for the stars and come up empty. That being said, it might be better to be at a V100 in general than a V20 but that is a debate for a different thread.

[Anonymous User]

Curious - would top 15% USC outplace GULC for placement in SF? I remember reading a GULC vs USC for SF thread awhile back, consensus was that GULC had the slight edge....But of course that did not take into account the top 15% vs transfer status. If OP is at USC, would it make sense to stay?

[bwv812]

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[Anonymous User]

Do you think that employers aren't going to see his grades from his previous school? Do you really think they're going to treat him as a median GULC student, i.e., inferior than how they would treat him at his old school? Now maybe he doesn't get much of a bump, but I don't think he's worse off.

Anyway, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the stats in the OCI materials reflects pre-inflation GPAs, and not current GPAs. Under the old curve, top third was usually around 3.35. Now, top-third is a little above 3.4. So who knows what career services means when they say to bid as though you had a 3.3-3.4. Probably they meant to bid as though you had a 3.3-3.4 according to the grade history chart, as I imagine they're telling non-transfers with 3.5-3.6 the same thing.

The interview/bid ratio is important, but so is the number of people they actually hired. Some firms seem to interview a lot but don't seem to actually hire. Or maybe they offer, but students don't accept. It's tough to tell from the limited information career services releases. As for the V20 firms you've bid on, I think that if they're the SF offices than the V rankings probably don't mean so much, and the GPA history should be somewhat more informative.

I would try to look at OCI material from your old school, too, as this will arguably give you a better idea of how firms treat someone from your school with your grades — transfer or no, I don't think they're going to treat you much differently.

If OP transferred from USC, and is targeting SF, I think this might be especially true - most of those SF firms/offices prob have at least some familiarity with USC and so will have some idea of what OPs GPA means.

Bwv - how do you know how many SA each firm hires? Do you just check nalp and look at the size of last years class? Or do you check with OCS to see how many students were given offers from your particular school (do most schools have this data?)?

Finally, are you a GULC student? Have you been through OCI are you getting ready for it next month? Thanks for all the great info

[NYAssociate]

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[270910]

Do you think that employers aren't going to see his grades from his previous school? Do you really think they're going to treat him as a median GULC student,

Yeah, the notion that transfers are treated "as if" they're at median at their new school is just incorrect. Now I don't know how transfers are treated. I know that they aren't treated as median, and in practice, I know transfers in the firm's summer class who most definitely wouldn't have gotten the job if treated as at median at their new school.

Totally agree based on what I've seen. Prior school and performance at that prior school seems to matter a lot amongst those I know who went through the process. Not everyone who gets into a school will have the same entering credentials, so it makes sense that law firms won't "treat them" as having the same entering credentials. Anything more fine than that is probably impossible to ascertain by speaking in generalities.

[bwv812]

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[Anonymous User]

Did it last year. I used the NALP data for class sizes. Also look at the NALP forms for the 3-year trend in SA class size, the offer/no-offer percentage, and leverage (though the odds of getting a job from GULC aren't so great that many can really afford to be picky on leverage and no-offer ratio — it's tough enough to get an SA in the first place). Also look at how many GULC students they've hired in the past years (from the GULC OCI material).

Some schools have offer data and release that. GULC doesn't seem to collect this information in a comprehensive way, and certainly doesn't release it if they have it.

PM me for

Hey, thanks for all the great info. Do you mind telling me what your bid strategy was and how GULCs OCI went for you? I heard last year was a bloodbath. Any info on the process would be greatly appreciated.

[iheartlaw]

I have a question too! I was accepted as a GULC Transfer in to the PT program. But is the EIW for 2L/3LE students only? Or can 2LE student's also participate in OCI?

[chipchip]

^ I don't think so. The employers guide they gave us says 2L (3E). Just do another internship, e.g. the international ones or through the government interview program in January, though you may be able to participate in the fall one, I'm not sure. Given that you haven't finished the full 1L curriculum, I don't see why any firm would make an exception, at least in EIW.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm allows bids from 2Es, you can bid. If there are any at all, they will be mostly be IP firms and those firms have specific requirements listed in their Symplicity instructions. If you bid and don't met those requirements, OCS will delete your bid.

For firms that only want 2Ls/3Es, you will be locked out of bidding on those until next year by Symplicity.

You can still mass mail for 1L SA positions when it's time, but you will have to go to extra trouble to highlight your graduation date and that you are an evening student. Many HR people at firms will toss your resume into the wrong form letter pile as soon as they see the number "2" on your cover letter.

Basically, if you are a 2E and don't have a hard science or engineering background, plan on doing an unpaid internship ITE.

[iheartlaw]

Hmm okay, so basically unless a firm allows for 2LE's to bid, I will be required to wait until next year's OCI/EIW?

[chipchip]

Exactly. To be honest, and I say this not knowing if you also tried to transfer into the full-time program, but the fact is you'll probably have better luck next year if firms decide to expand class sizes. Further, since (and correct me if I'm wrong) your previous grades are just P/F on your transcript, you also get the benefit of the new grading curve without grades with the older curve. Section 7 had the second highest Top 10% this year even with that half and half thing (unless the school retroactively changed grades for last year's 2Es, but I haven't heard anything).

[Anonymous User]

Hmm okay, so basically unless a firm allows for 2LE's to bid, I will be required to wait until next year's OCI/EIW?

YES.

[Anonymous User]

Further, since (and correct me if I'm wrong) your previous grades are just P/F on your transcript, you also get the benefit of the new grading curve without grades with the older curve.

No. Transfers use their old school's transcript at EIW. They don't just show up with P/F grades on a GULC transcript. Actually, the grades aren't marked as P/F, but as "transfer credits earned" or something like that.

If you're a 2E, next year you will bring both the old school's transcript and your GULC transcript to EIW.

ITE, I would not be too antsy to jump into EIW if you don't have to anyway. Just get used to the idea of waiting until next year for EIW and finding an unpaid internship or a law clerk job for next summer.

[iheartlaw]

great advice. and i totally agree with you guys. thanks a lot! i have a phone meeting with a section 7 counselor tomorrow, so I am sure she will break down the details more specifically for me. i appreciate all your guys' help. with oci bids ending on 7/23 i was a bit nervous. but i guess i can "sit" back for now. i'll post details from my conversation tomorrow with the career counselor.