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[Borhas]

i have become genuinely excited (rare thing for me) about this path, and if anyone here has some experiences they want to share please post it or send me a PM. I've read some handbooks and blogs, but I would really like to talk and ask questions in addition to all that.

PS i've tried the search function, wasn't too helpful

[lilybbloom]

I'm interning at the PD's office in Chicago this summer. What questions do you have?

[Tanicius]

I'm familiar with a lot of the PD's in Minnesota. Family member is one. Currently interning with an appellate PD at a law school clinic.

[Jack Smirks]

...

[Thomas Jefferson]

I'm interning at the PD's office in Chicago this summer. What questions do you have?

I'm actually really interested in this as well. Thanks for answering whatever questions you can.

Any suggestions for incoming 1Ls who are interested in PD work and would want to intern in a PD office 1L summer? What was your application process like for the internship?

In your experience so far, how do the younger/newer PDs seem to like their work? The stereotype seems to be that of being overworked with clients the vast majority of whom are guilty (which can weigh on some people) but those who are truly passionate about the work, which almost everyone who goes the PD route is, nonetheless find it very rewarding. How accurate would you say that is?

Do there seem to be a lot of "lifers" in your office? I would guess that you see more of them than you would in a DA's office. Those who do leave, where do they usually go, and after how long?

[Thomas Jefferson]

I'm familiar with a lot of the PD's in Minnesota. Family member is one. Currently interning with an appellate PD at a law school clinic.

Are you interning in Minnesota?

Anything unique about Minnesota PD offices compared to other offices?

How does hiring work for the Minnesota offices, both for summers and post-grad? Is it very competitive? Logistically/timing-wise, what is the hiring process like?

Is it possible for current students to volunteer/intern not only over the summer, but also during the school year or over winter break as well?

How do the newer/younger PDs in your family members office like the work? Are there a bunch of "lifers" in his/her office? What do those who do leave go onto to do?

I'm an incoming 1L at UMN and am strongly thinking about PD work. Anything you could share would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to PM anything as well. Thanks so much.

[Tanicius]

In your experience so far, how do the younger/newer PDs seem to like their work? The stereotype seems to be that of being overworked with clients the vast majority of whom are guilty (which can weigh on some people) but those who are truly passionate about the work, which almost everyone who goes the PD route is, nonetheless find it very rewarding. How accurate would you say that is?

From what I've seen it really doesn't matter what office you're talking about -- the PD's are always overloaded with work, are lacking funds, and now that ITE is upon state budgets in full many states have complete hiring freezes, which of course makes everything so much better. So yes, you'll be overworked, but nothing even close to Biglaw type hours. Except for when you're preparing for a trial, it's 40-50 hours a week and that's that. My family member who does it often busts their butt from 8-6, but they're one of the managers in the district.

Something to keep in mind about the "majority of clients are guilty" thing... There are many, many ways in which a PD can help, not all of which involve representing "guilty" people. Varying on location and the money available to fund this and that, there is: community reentry, prisoner services, sentencing advocacy, appellate advocacy, juvenile advocacy, family law, child (ie non-defendant) advocacy, probation violations, and the traditional "trial" work in the realms of misdemeanors and felonies. Barring the reentry and prisoner programs (due to the fact that they require special funding), if you're passionate about one of these areas in particular a PD's office would be glad to help you specialize in it.

Ultimately, though, you need to want to "win," no matter who you're client is, so I guess it would be foolish to try to find a PD job in which you didn't have to represent "guilty" people. Yes, it does look like it gets frustrating as hell when your client pushes for a trial and wants his defense to the drug distribution charge to be "the cop planted it on me and used computer graphics to make it look like I was selling it to her in the video tape." You need to accept this kind of work for what it's actually worth, though -- helping people who often times are dangerously mentally ill, people who grew up in crime and drugs their entire lives, people who never had caring or thoughtful parents, etc. Have to go into it with realistic expectations. Helping these people does not mean always being able to get them off of every crime they're charged with.

It also bears mentioning that some of the stuff prosecution teams will do to shortcut the system can be jaw droppingly unjust. I could go into a billion anecdotes, but you get the idea. PD's act as a very real and very important safeguard to this problem. So, even if it's frustrating to lose the majority of your cases, at least you're holding the state to its burden and forcing them to follow the law they're trying to enforce.

Do there seem to be a lot of "lifers" in your office? I would guess that you see more of them than you would in a DA's office. Those who do leave, where do they usually go, and after how long?

It depends, actually. I've met more than a few folks who did prosecution for a long, long time and switched over, and vice versa. In the more rural areas, people will often switch into whatever position most needs them, and the switches seem to be done based on seniority (the most junior people do the switching). For Minnesota's state trial teams, the people who live and breathe it, the vast majority of them are in it for life, and the district chiefs and managing PD's are extremely motivated too. Most of the upper division PD's right now have been doing this since the early 70's, and they're proud of it. I'd like to add that these people have been, in my experience, incredibly easy to get to know. They're very down to Earth. They're not the kinds of lawyers who look over what you're wearing and try to determine how much money you can bring to the table or how much of an annoying rival you might someday become. They're supportive and generally are happy to let you help them out because that's the kind of person this profession attracts in the first place.

Are you interning in Minnesota?

Anything unique about Minnesota PD offices compared to other offices?

How does hiring work for the Minnesota offices, both for summers and post-grad? Is it very competitive? Logistically/timing-wise, what is the hiring process like?

Is it possible for current students to volunteer/intern not only over the summer, but also during the school year or over winter break as well?

How do the newer/younger PDs in your family members office like the work? Are there a bunch of "lifers" in his/her office? What do those who do leave go onto to do?

I'm an incoming 1L at UMN and am strongly thinking about PD work. Anything you could share would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to PM anything as well. Thanks so much.

I'll PM you about this.

[Thomas Jefferson]

It depends, actually. I've met more than a few folks who did prosecution for a long, long time and switched over, and vice versa. In the more rural areas, people will often switch into whatever position most needs them, and the switches seem to be done based on seniority (the most junior people do the switching).

Thanks for your great response. Would it be possible for you to say a little more about this though? I've often heard that prosecution work will get you blacklisted from PD offices, and PD work raises eyebrows to DAs. When people do make these switches, is it generally to try to gain a broader perspective of experiences (and diversify their resume a little bit), or something else, and how is easy is it for them to do so?

Thanks again for a very thoughtful and helpful response.

[smalltown]

If you like the Constitution and the whole idea of not having a police state, then this job has its good points. It's amazing and not surprising how cops and DAs love to hold their power over a segment of society that really has no voice. You help people everyday. But you really have to believe that the Fourth Amendment stands for something, and that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, even if you know they are guilty. You have to want to work hard to file a motion that is going to lose in a case that is going to lose, because your job is to provide zealous representation, and you have to make the DA work for everything they get.

You'll read tons of shit on this web site about how the worst lawyers in the world end up being DAs and PDs because it's unbelievable that some people see the law as a tool for society and not a way to buy a boat. Yeah, fuck that.

If you don't like authority, then this is a great way to tell The Man to screw himself, even if he is going to still win and your client is still going to get screwed. The people, on the whole, are great to work with. Those who I have worked with and those I've known most of my life are hard working, committed people who are also fun to be with. Any more specific questions?

[A'nold]

There is no such thing as winning or losing as a PD. You will see this as you progress in law school. You are there to uphold citizens' constitutional rights and keep the government accountable. If you foresee it being anything else and you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Anyone that thinks in terms of "representing GUILTY clients" does not understand what a PD does. You are not supposed to judge whether or not your client is "guilty." You are just there to force the prosecution to prove their case in a legal way and present every possible way possible to put doubt in the minds of jurors and judges.

[Tanicius]

There is no such thing as winning or losing as a PD. You will see this as you progress in law school. You are there to uphold citizens' constitutional rights and keep the government accountable. If you foresee it being anything else and you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Anyone that thinks in terms of "representing GUILTY clients" does not understand what a PD does. You are not supposed to judge whether or not your client is "guilty." You are just there to force the prosecution to prove their case in a legal way and present every possible way possible to put doubt in the minds of jurors and judges.

+1

I think they meant more in line of, "Can it be frustrating to lose trials so often?" The answer to that would be yes, absolutely.

[A'nold]

There is no such thing as winning or losing as a PD. You will see this as you progress in law school. You are there to uphold citizens' constitutional rights and keep the government accountable. If you foresee it being anything else and you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Anyone that thinks in terms of "representing GUILTY clients" does not understand what a PD does. You are not supposed to judge whether or not your client is "guilty." You are just there to force the prosecution to prove their case in a legal way and present every possible way possible to put doubt in the minds of jurors and judges.

+1

I think they meant more in line of, "Can it be frustrating to lose trials so often?" The answer to that would be yes, absolutely.

Yeah, that would definitely be more accurate.

[Tanicius]

Thanks for your great response. Would it be possible for you to say a little more about this though? I've often heard that prosecution work will get you blacklisted from PD offices, and PD work raises eyebrows to DAs. When people do make these switches, is it generally to try to gain a broader perspective of experiences (and diversify their resume a little bit), or something else, and how is easy is it for them to do so?

Thanks again for a very thoughtful and helpful response.

In Minnesota I would not say the "blacklist" thing is typical. If you're a dick of a prosecutor and make a name for yourself with unfair plea bargains, prosecutorial misconduct during trials, or some other kind of shady tactic, then yeah, you're probably boned out of a PD position. But how many of those guys would want a PD position in the first place? Usually many of the laterals are done out of a need for the service; a PD or a prosecutor will quit or retire, and the lacking office needs someone from the other side. Prosecutors are also coming into the position with a lot of trial experience, and that's nothing but valuable. As long as one made it clear that they understand the principles behind pub defense, I don't imagine they would have such a hard time transferring into an open position.

I understand it's different depending on the region in the country and such, but I've found the PD and prosecutor relations to be pretty good. There are the bitter rivalries that last entire careers, and in downtown sectors there are the notorious "I hate that guy..." reputations, but the fact is that most PD's and prosecutors are smart people who care about justice, and they understand that the other guy isn't evil.

[leobowski]

I intern for a federal public defender, and I worked for a DA's office last summer. I'm also very close with the state PD's office. I'll try to address some of the questions in this thread.

1. Experience. It's been a great experience. Lots of time in court, contact with clients, visits to the jail, memos, appeals including a writ of cert to SCOTUS, etc. You actually can make a difference in someone's life. This has also opened doors with respect to federal clerkships.

2. Application process. You have to disclose every infraction besides traffic tickets over $50. I think they do run a background check. You are an employee of the federal courts system and get sworn in to uphold the constitution, defend the country against enemies and the like. This part is very cool. The interview process for state and federal public defenders is very thorough. If you have personal issues with defending murderers and child molesters this is not the job for you. You will contact and work on cases involving very serious criminals, so sack up or GTFO. They didn't really ask too much about my grades, but myself along with other past interns were at or near the top of their class. The application process for interns at the state PD is much less rigorous with respect to background checks and grades.

3. Work hours. PDs work from 8-5. Of course you may work harder if a trial is coming up. DAs do work less, and their job is generally easier. For every PD there are at least 2 DAs, a paralegal, an investigator and 2-3 over-entitled probation officers do deal with. The odds are greatly stacked against PDs but it's not crazy stressful like any law firm. There is always work, but I don't know if "overloaded" is the right term.

4. Lifestyle. Generally DAs and USAs are the boyscout/ law and order types. A lot of them are ex-military or ex-cops. PDs are more relaxed, come from varied backgrounds, and wear tweed jackets. It's wise to decide which lifestyle suits you best. I have and I feel happy about my choice.

5. Clients. There just aren't that many people in the federal system that are *probably* innocent, because the USAs cherry-pick the cases. This may be different at the state level, but not by that much from talking to state PDs. Most of the work is about obtaining the best possible sentence. The stuff you learn in crim law is just not that relevant all the time.

6. Benefits. AFPDs and AUSAs are not on the GS system, unless you work in DC. The pay is better than at the state level, and the benefits are considerably better. You get the vacation days, leave, retirement, etc that all federal employees get. From what I've seen, PDs get better pay and benefits than DAs in many states. This is because PDs are often state employees whereas DAs are county employees.

7. DA v. PD. I haven't noticed much "good-old-boy" attitude towards PDs not wanting those with DA experience, or vice versa. Generally either side wants someone who is sociable, quick on their feet, competent, and with a commitment to justice. However, like I mentioned earlier, if you have a serious problem with defending child molesters than public defense is not for you. I guess the same applies if you have a serious problem with putting people in jail.


Feel free to PM me or post in this thread if anyone has more personal or detailed questions, respectively.

[jayn3]

Are you interning in Minnesota?

Anything unique about Minnesota PD offices compared to other offices?

How does hiring work for the Minnesota offices, both for summers and post-grad? Is it very competitive? Logistically/timing-wise, what is the hiring process like?

Is it possible for current students to volunteer/intern not only over the summer, but also during the school year or over winter break as well?

How do the newer/younger PDs in your family members office like the work? Are there a bunch of "lifers" in his/her office? What do those who do leave go onto to do?

I'm an incoming 1L at UMN and am strongly thinking about PD work. Anything you could share would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to PM anything as well. Thanks so much.

I'll PM you about this.

could you PM me too?

[Borhas]

wow good stuff, thanks

I'm interning at the PD's office in Chicago this summer. What questions do you have?

Actually I can't really think of any too specific

But I'd like to know what sort of life tho attorneys had at the office, a lot of what I read makes it seem like they are completely overloaded and stressed out eccentric folks.

Should I be doing anything specific in 1L to get an internship the first summer?

[lilybbloom]

I'm working in the juvenile division, so my experience may not be representative of the PD's office as a whole- I've heard that PDs working in adult court tend to be more stressed out, but that they don't necessarily work longer hours.

the PDs in my office work from about 8:30-4 pm. Court is usually over by 12-1, and the rest of the afternoon involves talking to clients, or usually writing motions/briefs/etc.

no one in my office (by the way, the cook county PD is the largest or second-largest in the country) seems to be very stressed out at all. the caseload is large, but the nature of the job is that a lot of the tasks are repetitive and only sometimes will you get a case that requires some novel legal argument or rigorous intellectual activity. which isn't to say the PDs aren't smart- it's just that a big part of the job is going through the motions.

[lilybbloom]

getting an internship at the cook county PD doesn't seem to be super competitive (there are so many spots available)- but public servants are harder to get in touch with than people in the private sector, I've found, so you must be very persistent and really show a lot of interest.

[A'nold]

I'm working in the juvenile division, so my experience may not be representative of the PD's office as a whole- I've heard that PDs working in adult court tend to be more stressed out, but that they don't necessarily work longer hours.

the PDs in my office work from about 8:30-4 pm. Court is usually over by 12-1, and the rest of the afternoon involves talking to clients, or usually writing motions/briefs/etc.

no one in my office (by the way, the cook county PD is the largest or second-largest in the country) seems to be very stressed out at all. the caseload is large, but the nature of the job is that a lot of the tasks are repetitive and only sometimes will you get a case that requires some novel legal argument or rigorous intellectual activity. which isn't to say the PDs aren't smart- it's just that a big part of the job is going through the motions.

This pun did not go unappreciated.

[Geist13]

Thanks for the great info guys!

If you don't mind fielding a couple more questions:

For those of us considering these types of careers, what if anything would you suggest we do to put ourselves in the best position possible to work in a DA or PD office during our first summer?

Also, in your experience, do find that these offices tend to favor applicants from the local schools? I am not attending my state school but I am considering moving back home after law school. However, the DA's office in the county I grew up hired exclusively from the local school this summer. A big part of this was self-selection (its a small state, one law school) but I was wondering if you have noticed similar trends in your experiences?

[jayn3]

Thanks for the great info guys!

If you don't mind fielding a couple more questions:

For those of us considering these types of careers, what if anything would you suggest we do to put ourselves in the best position possible to work in a DA or PD office during our first summer?

Also, in your experience, do find that these offices tend to favor applicants from the local schools? I am not attending my state school but I am considering moving back home after law school. However, the DA's office in the county I grew up is hired exclusively from the local school. A big part of this was self-selection (its a small state, one law school) but I was wondering if you have noticed similar trends in your experiences?

this is also relevant to my interests.

[lilybbloom]

I think they do tend to hire from local schools, so if you're not local or you go to an elite school that might not send as many people to the PD's office, you should show a lot of interest.

As far as what to do your 1L year to put yourself in a good position, honestly just focus on your grades and writing skills. Maybe join the criminal law society to emphasize your interest (I didn't do this though) in that practice area. If you meet any PDs (I randomly met a few while volunteering with the local pound), network with them. That's about all I can think of.

[smalltown]

I don't think you have to exclusively be at the state school. In my office there is only two people out of six interns who go to the state school. Just make sure you apply early to these jobs because they are mainly looking for people who have a genuine interest, and it doesn't help if you apply in late April.

As a 1L, most of these jobs won't be paid. And they also know that a lot of people are doing it just to see if it's really what they want to do. So they're not looking for someone who is totally polished. If you're genuine about your interest, that will shine through. And don't be an asshole. You'd think that wouldn't need to be said, but being a nice person can be a big plus. This profession is half-stocked with pricks, and some of those people can overcome that, but it certainly doesn't help.

[leobowski]

wow good stuff, thanks

Should I be doing anything specific in 1L to get an internship the first summer?

Probably just focus on your grades and writing skills as others have mentioned. Maybe squeeze in some moot court if you can as a 1L. You need to be a good writer for any area of the law. I started getting way more serious assignments at the FPD once they figured out I could write.

Also, in your experience, do find that these offices tend to favor applicants from the local schools?

In small markets, yes this tends to be the case but there are still attorneys from all over. And aside from elite offices like the Manhattan DA, it's not going to be very prestige-whorish.

[articulably suspect]

For every PD there are at least 2 DAs, a paralegal, an investigator and 2-3 over-entitled probation officers do deal with. The odds are greatly stacked against PDs but it's not crazy stressful like any law firm. There is always work, but I don't know if "overloaded" is the right term

Over-entitled? Also, it's not the role of the probation department to work towards an end that is most desirable for the prosecution. Often times probation officers recommend sentences that are very much "lighter" than that which the DA's office is pushing for. In other words, they are not beholden to any other agency our department, they are supposed to be an objective arm of the criminal justice system.

Don't the DA's offices need more attorney's, investigators and staff?