Getting a job without "ties." Forum

[dominkay]

So, y'all are always talking about the importance of having "ties" to a region. I'm not completely clear on what this means, but I'm pretty sure that I have none. I emphatically do not want to work in the city where I'm from (New York). Would a so-called national school be able to put me in a market where I have no ties?

Hypothetically, if I go to school in Virginia or Michigan, will I have trouble convincing employers from Houston or Atlanta to hire me? Or am I always going to come across as a loser who couldn't get New York? Would it then be smarter to go to a slightly lower-ranked school (like Texas or Emory) that has strong local placement?

[Cleareyes]

So, y'all are always talking about the importance of having "ties" to a region. I'm not completely clear on what this means, but I'm pretty sure that I have none. I emphatically do not want to work in the city where I'm from (New York). Would a so-called national school be able to put me in a market where I have no ties?

Hypothetically, if I go to school in Virginia or Michigan, will I have trouble convincing employers from Houston or Atlanta to hire me? Or am I always going to come across as a loser who couldn't get New York? Would it then be smarter to go to a slightly lower-ranked school (like Texas or Emory) that has strong local placement?

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

[rando]

So, y'all are always talking about the importance of having "ties" to a region. I'm not completely clear on what this means, but I'm pretty sure that I have none. I emphatically do not want to work in the city where I'm from (New York). Would a so-called national school be able to put me in a market where I have no ties?

Hypothetically, if I go to school in Virginia or Michigan, will I have trouble convincing employers from Houston or Atlanta to hire me? Or am I always going to come across as a loser who couldn't get New York? Would it then be smarter to go to a slightly lower-ranked school (like Texas or Emory) that has strong local placement?

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

[Cleareyes]

So, y'all are always talking about the importance of having "ties" to a region. I'm not completely clear on what this means, but I'm pretty sure that I have none. I emphatically do not want to work in the city where I'm from (New York). Would a so-called national school be able to put me in a market where I have no ties?

Hypothetically, if I go to school in Virginia or Michigan, will I have trouble convincing employers from Houston or Atlanta to hire me? Or am I always going to come across as a loser who couldn't get New York? Would it then be smarter to go to a slightly lower-ranked school (like Texas or Emory) that has strong local placement?

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

Anecdotal, sure, but the question is how many people from Columbia and Harvard TRIED to get to Atlanta but couldn't because they lacked ties? The truth is that most people who WANT to go to Atlanta probably have ties there. People want to go where they have ties.

[Na_Swatch]

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

exactly what cleareyes said... correlation =/= causation

[rando]

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

exactly what cleareyes said... correlation =/= causation

No one ever said it did. That was clearly why the "anecdotal" flag was put out there.

But you are all fooling yourselves if you think firms don't want ties. Those ties can be through LS, hometown, where you lived or worked, even where you went to UG. But unless you are at a T3-6, good luck without them.

[Na_Swatch]

A) Establish ties in the region. Since most 1Ls work for free over the summer, work for free in the city you want to work for pay in. Go there, network, get some ties, profit.

B) Nobody's going to think you're a loser who couldn't get New York if your transcript says otherwise. Nobody looks at someone in the top 10% at Michigan and goes "This loser couldn't get New York." What they might think is A) This person is using us as a safety or B) This person will flee to New York or somewhere else in a few years with valuable training in their heads.

Talk to your OCS to figure out ways to convince them this isn't so. Ties are useful and important but they aren't everything.

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

exactly what cleareyes said... correlation =/= causation

No one ever said it did. That was clearly why the "anecdotal" flag was put out there.

But you are all fooling yourselves if you think firms don't want ties. Those ties can be through LS, hometown, where you lived or worked, even where you went to UG. But unless you are at a T3-6, good luck without them.

anecdotal means that you only have a small sample size, correlation/ causation is a different story...

but anyways the whole ties thing is a little overblown I think. Most of it can just be explained by the regional influence of schools for smaller market firms.

[Anonymous User]

How true is this re: San Diego? I am very interested in working there, have a ton of ties to southern california (went to school in LA, have family in OC, partner's family in LA, worked in LA before going to law school), but none directly to San Diego. The only things I can come up with are: 1) I collaborated with people from a school in SD to publish a scientific paper, and 2) I want to work in Southern California, and SD firms do more of the type of work I am interested in than LA firms. Ugh. I am currently in law school in Northern California, and am working in LA this summer.

Any input? Thanks guys!

[rando]

How true is this re: San Diego? I am very interested in working there, have a ton of ties to southern california (went to school in LA, have family in OC, partner's family in LA, worked in LA before going to law school), but none directly to San Diego. The only things I can come up with are: 1) I collaborated with people from a school in SD to publish a scientific paper, and 2) I want to work in Southern California, and SD firms do more of the type of work I am interested in than LA firms. Ugh. I am currently in law school in Northern California, and am working in LA this summer.

Any input? Thanks guys!

Should be fine.

[rando]

Every single person in my summer class in ATL has ties to GA. Whether it be through LS (Emory or UGA) or through growing up here. Even the girl from Harvard and the guy from Columbia. Anecdotal, but may have a grain of truth.

exactly what cleareyes said... correlation =/= causation

No one ever said it did. That was clearly why the "anecdotal" flag was put out there.

But you are all fooling yourselves if you think firms don't want ties. Those ties can be through LS, hometown, where you lived or worked, even where you went to UG. But unless you are at a T3-6, good luck without them.

anecdotal means that you only have a small sample size, correlation/ causation is a different story...

but anyways the whole ties thing is a little overblown I think. Most of it can just be explained by the regional influence of schools for smaller market firms.

Are you really trying to make a distinction re; statistics? Your point is just not credited. You are flat out wrong. Ties are important.

[r2b2ct]

So would you guys say the main reason firms want ties is because it convinces them that you are less of a flight risk?

[Cleareyes]

So would you guys say the main reason firms want ties is because it convinces them that you are less of a flight risk?

It's because clients expect ties. Business casual may go over at your Googles and your Zappos but at a white shoe law firm you expect your attorney you're paying hundreds of dollars an hour to to wear a full suit. And that includes a tie.

[Na_Swatch]

exactly what cleareyes said... correlation =/= causation

No one ever said it did. That was clearly why the "anecdotal" flag was put out there.

But you are all fooling yourselves if you think firms don't want ties. Those ties can be through LS, hometown, where you lived or worked, even where you went to UG. But unless you are at a T3-6, good luck without them.

anecdotal means that you only have a small sample size, correlation/ causation is a different story...

but anyways the whole ties thing is a little overblown I think. Most of it can just be explained by the regional influence of schools for smaller market firms.

Are you really trying to make a distinction re; statistics? Your point is just not credited. You are flat out wrong. Ties are important.

I never said ties aren't important. I'm saying the idea that a Harvard or Columbia grad needs ties or else he'll get shut out of an Atlanta firm is taking the idea of ties too far.

For example, a UVA grad might not do to well looking for jobs in Washington or California. However, this isn't because of ties to the region as much as the fact that UVA has far lesser influence in such a distant area. A UVA grad probably could find decent employment in say Georgia or North Carolina even if they didn't have the strongest ties to that area, although it would definitely help if they did.

[rando]

No one ever said it did. That was clearly why the "anecdotal" flag was put out there.

But you are all fooling yourselves if you think firms don't want ties. Those ties can be through LS, hometown, where you lived or worked, even where you went to UG. But unless you are at a T3-6, good luck without them.

anecdotal means that you only have a small sample size, correlation/ causation is a different story...

but anyways the whole ties thing is a little overblown I think. Most of it can just be explained by the regional influence of schools for smaller market firms.

Are you really trying to make a distinction re; statistics? Your point is just not credited. You are flat out wrong. Ties are important.

I never said ties aren't important. I'm saying the idea that a Harvard or Columbia grad needs ties or else he'll get shut out of an Atlanta firm is taking the idea of ties too far.

For example, a UVA grad might not do to well looking for jobs in Washington or California. However, this isn't because of ties to the region as much as the fact that UVA has far lesser influence in such a distant area. A UVA grad probably could find decent employment in say Georgia or North Carolina even if they didn't have the strongest ties to that area, although it would definitely help if they did.

I think we are pretty much in agreement then. If you read my first post - "unless you are T3-6, good luck without them." The point in identifying H & C students as having ties was hyperbole and then saying "may have a grain of truth." Not to show a requirement for T6 students. Either way. This distinction does not matter for 99% of Law students. Ties are important in general.

[r2b2ct]

So would you guys say the main reason firms want ties is because it convinces them that you are less of a flight risk?

It's because clients expect ties. Business casual may go over at your Googles and your Zappos but at a white shoe law firm you expect your attorney you're paying hundreds of dollars an hour to to wear a full suit. And that includes a tie.

--ImageRemoved--

[sanpiero]

So would you guys say the main reason firms want ties is because it convinces them that you are less of a flight risk?

It's because clients expect ties. Business casual may go over at your Googles and your Zappos but at a white shoe law firm you expect your attorney you're paying hundreds of dollars an hour to to wear a full suit. And that includes a tie.

i lol'ed. well played, cleareyes, well played.

[Renzo]

So would you guys say the main reason firms want ties is because it convinces them that you are less of a flight risk?

It's because clients expect ties. Business casual may go over at your Googles and your Zappos but at a white shoe law firm you expect your attorney you're paying hundreds of dollars an hour to to wear a full suit. And that includes a tie.

I take exception to this. I've never seen any white shoes at a firm.

[NewHere]

Hypothetically, if I go to school in Virginia or Michigan, will I have trouble convincing employers from Houston or Atlanta to hire me? Or am I always going to come across as a loser who couldn't get New York? Would it then be smarter to go to a slightly lower-ranked school (like Texas or Emory) that has strong local placement?

I don't think you'll be seen as a loser who couldn't get a job in NY. Not everyone wants a job in NY. But firms in many places outside of NY want to know that their applicants are actually interested in staying there, and aren't in it just for a summer of fun in a new place, never to come back afterwards. This is especially true for 1L summer jobs, but also to some extent for 2L summer jobs. Firms are willing to spend a lot of money on flying in interviewees, and then on wining and dining them during the summer. This pays off for them if they can subsequently hire the people to come back when they graduate, so they want to some reassurance that the people they interview will actually be interested in staying for the long run.

It is not impossible to get a job in, say, Atlanta without ties, but it will help you a lot if you have a good explanation for why you want to be there. This is easiest to do if you actually did grow up there or went to school there or have family there. But if you didn't, all is not lost. Maybe you have visited it many times and have always wanted to live there. Maybe you used to have family there. Maybe you are thinking of raising a family and Atlanta seems the perfect place for that. Whatever it is, be convincing. If you just say "I thought I'd try Atlanta for a change." or "I am just interviewing all over the country." or "I just don't want to be in NY." it may give the impression that you'll work for them for a summer, and then disappear back to NY.

[Cleareyes]

But firms in many places outside of NY want to know that their applicants are actually interested in staying there, and aren't in it just for a summer of fun in a new place, never to come back afterwards. This is especially true for 1L summer jobs[/quote]

Why would it be true of 1L summer jobs? Most firms don't expect to hire the 1Ls they hire for a summer job after law school. It would seem LESS true for 1Ls than 2Ls, because if you're not going to work at Firm X in Region Y after graduation then why does Firm X care whether you work in Region Y or Region Z?

[olderlawyer]

I think "ties" are most important for 2L summer and beyond, and probably more important the "smaller" the market. For instance in a city like Baltimore ties would be more important than in Atlanta, because it's not known as a melting pot destination city in any sense, whereas Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, DC, LA, and SF would be. I know that in the medium-size city where I live, firms told my 1L son they wouldn't hire 2Ls for summers any more without ties to the city (and not just the overall region, which is the Southeast) because too many have come in town with daddy's money, stayed in a hotel, enjoyed 5-6 weeks of partying and resume-building, and not looked back. In these firms, one slot in a summer program makes a difference in terms of their recruiting and planning.

Having said this, I agree that ties can be created fairly quickly. If you already know what city or cities you'd like but have no ties right now, spend some vacation or off-time there and get to know the place well enough to speak about it in conversation--where you ate, what recreational activities there you've enjoyed. Make some friends somehow. Take a young lawyer out to lunch to pick his/her brain. Meet some alumni of your UG school who live there, or some frat brothers, or someone, and start acting like it's home. Law firms will like the idea you like the city and you can even TELL them what you're doing to demonstrate your intentions.

Another point, somewhat off this exact topic, but on after-law school employment generally: you WILL get a job after law school as a lawyer unless you're really a slug and don't try. In this economy ALL jobs, except maybe in nursing and health care fields, are tougher than they've ever been, so law is just like everything else. It is better to have a law degree (and the debt) than not to have one, because if worst came to worst you could literally hang out a shingle, something you couldn't do if you didn't have a professional degree. Don't panic now or, for goodness sakes, overthink decisions already made. This is the situation you must deal with. But this will work out. I promise you you'll be better off than had you stopped at an UG degree only.

[NewHere]

Why would it be true of 1L summer jobs? Most firms don't expect to hire the 1Ls they hire for a summer job after law school. It would seem LESS true for 1Ls than 2Ls, because if you're not going to work at Firm X in Region Y after graduation then why does Firm X care whether you work in Region Y or Region Z?

This information comes mostly from Career Services, but it seems to make sense.

It seems to be the case that firms that hire 1Ls do so for one of two reasons: (a) to improve their reputation at the school of the 1L, hoping that he or she will go back and tell everyone how great it was to work for the firm, and/or (b) to persuade the 1L in question that they may want to come back during the second summer, and then, maybe, after graduation. (This is leaving aside diversity programs, etc.)

A lot of small firms know that they don't have a chance to recruit top-school, top-of-the-class students during 2L year, so they hope to get in early and snag a few 1Ls, or at least get their name out. They know that a lot of these people will end up going to their 2L bigger firm anyway, but they hope that a few will choose the small-firm work environment over the big anonymous environment after they have tried both.

If you're going to a big national school in NY, a firm in, say, Chattanooga doesn't have a lot to gain from employing you 1L summer, unless they have some indication that you would consider coming back. Not many of your classmates back in NY would be interested in moving to Chattanooga, so there isn't much value in spreading the name of the firm.

Meanwhile working for a firm during 2L summer is more of an implied statement of interest in coming back after graduation. 3L OCI is not a reliable backup option for finding a post-graduation job, so few people would choose to work for a firm during 2L summer in a place where they would refuse to come back to after graduation. (With a few exceptions -- people who know they want to work for the government or in public interest right after graduation , but use 2L summer to earn some money.)

[Cleareyes]

Why would it be true of 1L summer jobs? Most firms don't expect to hire the 1Ls they hire for a summer job after law school. It would seem LESS true for 1Ls than 2Ls, because if you're not going to work at Firm X in Region Y after graduation then why does Firm X care whether you work in Region Y or Region Z?

This information comes mostly from Career Services, but it seems to make sense.

It seems to be the case that firms that hire 1Ls do so for one of two reasons: (a) to improve their reputation at the school of the 1L, hoping that he or she will go back and tell everyone how great it was to work for the firm, and/or (b) to persuade the 1L in question that they may want to come back during the second summer, and then, maybe, after graduation. (This is leaving aside diversity programs, etc.)

A lot of small firms know that they don't have a chance to recruit top-school, top-of-the-class students during 2L year, so they hope to get in early and snag a few 1Ls, or at least get their name out. They know that a lot of these people will end up going to their 2L bigger firm anyway, but they hope that a few will choose the small-firm work environment over the big anonymous environment after they have tried both.

If you're going to a big national school in NY, a firm in, say, Chattanooga doesn't have a lot to gain from employing you 1L summer, unless they have some indication that you would consider coming back. Not many of your classmates back in NY would be interested in moving to Chattanooga, so there isn't much value in spreading the name of the firm.

Meanwhile working for a firm during 2L summer is more of an implied statement of interest in coming back after graduation. 3L OCI is not a reliable backup option for finding a post-graduation job, so few people would choose to work for a firm during 2L summer in a place where they would refuse to come back to after graduation. (With a few exceptions -- people who know they want to work for the government or in public interest right after graduation , but use 2L summer to earn some money.)

This makes sense for for-profit firms in Chattanooga, but the number of 1L positions these firms have is pretty limited to begin with. For firms in a place like Atlanta I think the primary value IS the reputation building, and at any large school there will be people who want to go to Atlanta, San Fran, L.A. etc...

There are also non-profits and government entities, which use law students to do actual substantive work for free, and I don't see why a Chattanooga public interest entity wouldn't want a Michigan student to come in, do some free work over 1L summer (thus establishing ties) and leave. They would still benefit.

The vast majority of students even at top schools will be doing public interest work their 1L summer so I'm not sure that the fact that it will be hard to get a paying firm job in Chattanooga 1L summer is a real problem.

[Anonymous User]

I'm working in my home market as a 1L, and literally 100% of the law students I know returned to a home market or stayed at school (to RA or work in the local area) for their first year summer. Every single one.

Edit: Thought of one exception, so strike that. I know one person who got a job in a market that I don't believe they grew up or went to college / LS in. But I know an awful lot of 1Ls, so...

Ties are important and you can't use a purely rational approach to determine why. If you're a firm in Atlanta and you have to decide between the guy who has a resume dripping with The South and a guy who spent his life growing up in Seattle, odds are you're going to like the guy with ties. You'll understand him, you'll have more to talk about, you'll have more respect for the things on the resume that only a 'native' might understand, you'll likely know people who engaged in similar activities, etc. And for the 1L job, that kind of thing is the difference between getting a phone call and becoming one of the 2,000,000 other resumes in the pile for the 3 attorney law firm.

[Renzo]

I'm working in my home market as a 1L, and literally 100% of the law students I know returned to a home market or stayed at school (to RA or work in the local area) for their first year summer. Every single one.

Well while we're throwing out anecdotes, I am in a city I had never set foot in before the summer, and had no ties to. 4 out of my 6 cohort summer associates likewise neither go to school here nor have lived here. I have also been going out with law school classmates who are here for the summer, and slightly more than half have no ties to the area.

[Cleareyes]

I'm working in my home market as a 1L, and literally 100% of the law students I know returned to a home market or stayed at school (to RA or work in the local area) for their first year summer. Every single one.

Edit: Thought of one exception, so strike that. I know one person who got a job in a market that I don't believe they grew up or went to college / LS in. But I know an awful lot of 1Ls, so...

Ties are important and you can't use a purely rational approach to determine why. If you're a firm in Atlanta and you have to decide between the guy who has a resume dripping with The South and a guy who spent his life growing up in Seattle, odds are you're going to like the guy with ties. You'll understand him, you'll have more to talk about, you'll have more respect for the things on the resume that only a 'native' might understand, you'll likely know people who engaged in similar activities, etc. And for the 1L job, that kind of thing is the difference between getting a phone call and becoming one of the 2,000,000 other resumes in the pile for the 3 attorney law firm.

If we're doing anecdotes, most of the people I know are either 1) Staying in Boston 2) Going to NY or DC (where they may or may not have ties, but these markets don't require ties) or 3) Going home. But I do know people who went places where they had no particular ties, and I can't think of anyone who really wanted to go to a particular market and tried hard to get there but weren't able to.