"Safety" Firms Forum

[Anonymous User]

When we all applied to law school, we applied to our reaches, our targets and our safeties. Should we use a similar approach with OCI?

My school's office of career services recommended only applying to targets. As someone who wants to work in biglaw though, I would much rather work at a firm in the lower Vault 100 or outside of the Vault rankings than get shut out of OCI altogether by aiming too high.

What do you guys think / have you heard from the career services people at your school?

[Anonymous User]

I think it depends A LOT on what school you are at, who is recruiting, and where you stand in comparison to your class (and overall to candidates from similar schools) so it's hard to tell you anything definitive to you specifically without more info.

However, my logic is that in this crap economy, things are going to be hokey. Think about this-- in a normal cycle, people would apply to targets, many would get them with some adjustment down for each grouping (so of the top 20% of the class, 15% get jobs on target and 5% get jobs below target, taking up some spots for 40%-20% ranked classmates, who then get some on target and some below and above etc., etc.)

But now, there is all this advice to out there to "bid conservatively" and act like your class rank or GPA is lower than in reality because the economy sucks and employers are more selective. Here's the rub: while employers have become "more selective" (so where the median call back for a firm was once a 3.6 and last year was 3.85) there are still aren't more students in the top of the class with those GPAs (read: employers are just not calling back 3.6s at all whereas before you'd have a shot) So if you are in between the "old" and "new" media GPAs and towards the top quarter of the class or so I don't think it makes sense to "underbid" (since its the median still worth a shot I think) If you are not in that position, I think it does make sense to underbid somewhat, but still leave most of your targets in there.

My plan (I think) is to bid pretty much all targets for OCI, and agressively go after the ones I want I don't get through blind bidding, and create more of a safety net by mailing my (pretty solid) resume to firms below target and hopefully get some bites that way?

[Anonymous User]

I think it depends A LOT on what school you are at, who is recruiting, and where you stand in comparison to your class (and overall to candidates from similar schools) so it's hard to tell you anything definitive to you specifically without more info.

However, my logic is that in this crap economy, things are going to be hokey. Think about this-- in a normal cycle, people would apply to targets, many would get them with some adjustment down for each grouping (so of the top 20% of the class, 15% get jobs on target and 5% get jobs below target, taking up some spots for 40%-20% ranked classmates, who then get some on target and some below and above etc., etc.)

But now, there is all this advice to out there to "bid conservatively" and act like your class rank or GPA is lower than in reality because the economy sucks and employers are more selective. Here's the rub: while employers have become "more selective" (so where the median call back for a firm was once a 3.6 and last year was 3.85) there are still aren't more students in the top of the class with those GPAs (read: employers are just not calling back 3.6s at all whereas before you'd have a shot) So if you are in between the "old" and "new" media GPAs and towards the top quarter of the class or so I don't think it makes sense to "underbid" (since its the median still worth a shot I think) If you are not in that position, I think it does make sense to underbid somewhat, but still leave most of your targets in there.

My plan (I think) is to bid pretty much all targets for OCI, and agressively go after the ones I want I don't get through blind bidding, and create more of a safety net by mailing my (pretty solid) resume to firms below target and hopefully get some bites that way?

Sounds like a solid plan. I think I'll probably do the same. Thanks for your input!

When do you think you'll start sending out resumes and cover letters to the firms? Will you double up with the firms you bid on but may not have gotten an interview?

As far as my personal status... I'm at Fordham in the top 5%. As a result, I feel like I should be bidding largely for the top firms. I'm just afraid that in this economy, I could still be shut out of those top firms, whereas the lower firms in the Vault 100 may give me more of a chance (and I'd still be happy there).

As of now, I think my bid list includes about 15-20 of the Vault 25, 8-10 of the Vault 25-50, 6-7 of the Vault 50-75, and 1 firm in the last quarter. Do you think this is a good distribution?

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on the stellar performance! My initial thought is that you have a good list but I would maybe bump a few from the V25 (or bump the list down a few notches in general) in favor of other more specific tailored choices and here's why.

I'm assuming at Fordham you are staying in NY, not sure what practice area but let's say you want to do litigation, you might want to take a chance on a couple of boutique litigation places not in the V100 (if they indeed exist and are coming to OCI) because then you are not just playing the V-100 card but looking beyond to say okay, where can I find a niche opportunity? I am applying to a few firms in the practice area I am interested in that are well regarded in that area (in a good band either nationally or in their location according to Chambers) but not in the V-100. I would advise you pick Vault top rated city firms that aren't in the V-100 but there aren't any in NY anyway. But then again I have 50 bids...

The other thing to think about it how many of the 35 you actually have a realistic shot at getting if your system is blind bidding. At my school (T-14) I spoke to a 3L who is at a V-10 this summer and she said that based on blind bidding only gave her 10 interviews (making the top 20 WAY more crucial than the bottom 30 bids) Since you are not likely bidding in an off market and practically EVERYONE at Fordham is trying to stay in NY, blind bidding might be tricky.
If bidding is not blind, you'll probably get a first round at practically everywhere that recruits at your school is my guess.

/rambling.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats on the stellar performance! My initial thought is that you have a good list but I would maybe bump a few from the V25 (or bump the list down a few notches in general) in favor of other more specific tailored choices and here's why.

I'm assuming at Fordham you are staying in NY, not sure what practice area but let's say you want to do litigation, you might want to take a chance on a couple of boutique litigation places not in the V100 (if they indeed exist and are coming to OCI) because then you are not just playing the V-100 card but looking beyond to say okay, where can I find a niche opportunity? I am applying to a few firms in the practice area I am interested in that are well regarded in that area (in a good band either nationally or in their location according to Chambers) but not in the V-100. I would advise you pick Vault top rated city firms that aren't in the V-100 but there aren't any in NY anyway. But then again I have 50 bids...

The other thing to think about it how many of the 35 you actually have a realistic shot at getting if your system is blind bidding. At my school (T-14) I spoke to a 3L who is at a V-10 this summer and she said that based on blind bidding only gave her 10 interviews (making the top 20 WAY more crucial than the bottom 30 bids) Since you are not likely bidding in an off market and practically EVERYONE at Fordham is trying to stay in NY, blind bidding might be tricky.
If bidding is not blind, you'll probably get a first round at practically everywhere that recruits at your school is my guess.

/rambling.

Thanks again for another really detailed response. You really seem to know your stuff.

Fordham's system is 60/40 --- meaning that 60% is employer selected and 40% is based on student bidding. I'm not really sure exactly how the student bidding component works (if Fordham solely takes into account people's rankings or also considers whether they're like to get hired --- unfortunately for me, i assume the former). Between the self selected bids I land and the 60% of employer selection though, I would expect to have a fair number of interview.

I'm really not positive where I want to practice, but I'm leaning towards corporate and m&a work. I basically blanketed the Chambers selections in those categories (but for the most part they seem to correspond with Vault). I'll try to see if there are any lower ranked firms that specialize in that area that I can squeeze in though.

Thanks again. Good luck!

[edcrane]

ITE, there are very, very few "safety" firms. Many V50-V100 firms have reduced class sizes to the extent that if you have decent grades it is more difficult to get an offer at, say, Dechert, than S&C. Most firms that traditionally hire from the median or below are not going to be wowed by the fact that you're top 10%. If anything, having (very) high grades will potentially hurt your chances at such places. They will begin with the assumption that you're not serious and require a fair amount of convincing to change their minds.

If your GPA is sufficiently high, it will probably be easier to get offers at more selective firms for two reasons: first, they will not question your seriousness, and second, your pool of competitors will be smaller. This is certainly how things played out for me last year.

That said, certain less selective firms may buck the trend and extend callback invitations and offers to people with much higher GPAs than they typically attract. I don't there are a lot of these, but there are some (Fried Frank is one example, I think).

Accordingly, my advice is to mainly apply to targets but sprinkle in some very carefully chosen less selective firms.