Top 10/15 at GULC - Where to Bid? Forum

[Anonymous User]

So now that GULC finally finished giving 1Ls our grades and honors cutoffs...

I got a 3.71, which in the new curve translates to Top 15% in my section (which had a ridiculously high 3.8 as Top 10, with Top 15 being 3.68 - numerically 11 people got 3.8+ and 17 got 3.68+). All other sections were below 3.7 for Top 10 except Section 7. I'm iffy on how to approach things as a result, since I have no clue where I am on the overall curve for the Class of 2012, and obviously I don't want to seem like a douche by stressing the differences in honors cutoffs between sections.

My breakdown was 2 A, 5 A-, 2 B+. I'm interested in staying on the East Coast (NY/DC area primarily) or going abroad (e.g London). I'm more interested in litigation (white collar stuff has been really interesting this summer) but I'm also open to antitrust, government, international trade, and energy work (to be blunt, anything goes at this point).

I was high on Williams & Connolly but I assume that is a verrrry long shot and I'm not sure if I should waste a bid (and I don't have any pre-GULC work experience). What about A+P, Cleary, Gibson, etc.? Should I stick to V10-20 primarily for my best bets? Based on grade history, I'm standing strong for most places, but I don't have access to specific numbers from the past two years.

Thoughts? Thanks so much!

[vamedic03]

So now that GULC finally finished giving 1Ls our grades and honors cutoffs...

I got a 3.71, which in the new curve translates to Top 15% in my section (which had a ridiculously high 3.8 as Top 10, with Top 15 being 3.68 - numerically 11 people got 3.8+ and 17 got 3.68+). All other sections were below 3.7 for Top 10 except Section 7. I'm iffy on how to approach things as a result, since I have no clue where I am on the overall curve for the Class of 2012, and obviously I don't want to seem like a douche by stressing the differences in honors cutoffs between sections.

My breakdown was 2 A, 5 A-, 2 B+. I'm interested in staying on the East Coast (NY/DC area primarily) or going abroad (e.g London). I'm more interested in litigation (white collar stuff has been really interesting this summer) but I'm also open to antitrust, government, international trade, and energy work (to be blunt, anything goes at this point).

I was high on Williams & Connolly but I assume that is a verrrry long shot and I'm not sure if I should waste a bid (and I don't have any pre-GULC work experience). What about A+P, Cleary, Gibson, etc.? Should I stick to V10-20 primarily for my best bets? Based on grade history, I'm standing strong for most places, but I don't have access to specific numbers from the past two years.

Thoughts? Thanks so much!

If you're focusing on DC, then look beyond the Vault rankings - they're tend to be more reflective of NYC than anywhere else. Don't discount Hogan & Lovells just because they're outside of the V20.

[Anonymous User]

^ OP here. I definitely don't plan to; I put V10-20 up in terms of the highest range I presumably can get given my GPA and the current market. I've been looking at Hogan, but I'm not entirely sure if the recent merger is a benefit or a negative at this point...

[Alyosha]

I'm a little confused by this. Won't employers want to know your overall rank, as opposed to section rank? Will Gtown provide an overall rank?

[vamedic03]

^ OP here. I definitely don't plan to; I put V10-20 up in terms of the highest range I presumably can get given my GPA and the current market. I've been looking at Hogan, but I'm not entirely sure if the recent merger is a benefit or a negative at this point...

I don't know how it will effect their non-DC offices, but I imagine that they will continue to be the DC powerhouse that they have been for quite some time.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm in one of the other sections at GULC. I assume that firms see the chart with the grade breakdowns for top 10/15/33 in each section, so I'd ask your career counselor if there's a way (maybe by simply noting your section on your resume?) to subtly hint to the interviewers that you're in the section with the higher GPA cutoffs. If they've looked at the chart, they'll get the message; if not, oh well, at least you didn't look gauche by outright telling them to their faces. On the other hand, maybe it's completely acceptable to just tell the interviewers. No idea. I bet your counselor/upper class students know.

Anyway, congrats!

[pasteurizedmilk]

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[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I'm in one of the other sections at GULC. I assume that firms see the chart with the grade breakdowns for top 10/15/33 in each section, so I'd ask your career counselor if there's a way (maybe by simply noting your section on your resume?) to subtly hint to the interviewers that you're in the section with the higher GPA cutoffs. If they've looked at the chart, they'll get the message; if not, oh well, at least you didn't look gauche by outright telling them to their faces. On the other hand, maybe it's completely acceptable to just tell the interviewers. No idea. I bet your counselor/upper class students know.

Anyway, congrats!

Do employers actually see the charts? I highly doubt that career services supplies it to them, though they could find it with a little legwork. Career services, embarrassingly, doesn't even seem to know what the approximate cutoffs are... last year they thought I was right at one of the 10/15/33cutoffs (which are published), when in fact I was 0.1 - 0.2 above the cutoff. This was not reassuring.

Anyway, if employers have the charts, the new grading scheme is going to be of somewhat limited effect... although I guess the upper end of the curve will get a little fatter and perhaps make it harder to differentiate between those in the top 1/3.

[Anonymous User]

So overall ranking is published, not just intra-section?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Overall ranking is only published from the end of 2L year on. It is purely intra-section for 1Ls (hence my issue because I arguably may fall under Top 10% overall, but am top 15 in my section).

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Overall ranking is only published from the end of 2L year on. It is purely intra-section for 1Ls (hence my issue because I arguably may fall under Top 10% overall, but am top 15 in my section).

Gotcha. At least you have an edge in the future for grad honors. For this year, I doubt employers will care that your section had slightly difference curve distribution than others.

[doctoroflaw]

Did your section have easier curves? I know professors have some discretion, so I was assuming that caused the crazy increase at the top for section 3. If not then it is just a gunner-section3 correlation where 10% of your section dominated and took all of the As and A-s?

Back to bidding..

How much is everyone adding to the historical GPA chart to account for ITE?

[Anonymous User]

OP here:

From what I can tell, the professors basically followed the curve other than one class in the fall that gave about 2% more As. There was inevitably going to be some flow based on the class participation bump ups, but those weren't on the highest rungs. Basically, the highest grades were just concentrated in the same people (and we have some really intelligent ones, to be sure).

[doctoroflaw]

OP here:

From what I can tell, the professors basically followed the curve other than one class in the fall that gave about 2% more As. There was inevitably going to be some flow based on the class participation bump ups, but those weren't on the highest rungs. Basically, the highest grades were just concentrated in the same people (and we have some really intelligent ones, to be sure).

Can't wait to be in the same curve as them/you . I did slightly worse than you GPA-wise but equivalent as far as section rank. I read in your OP that you want DC/NY. I'm not sure about the consensus is on here but NY seems easier to get in every regard from our school. Half the number of people bidding for more interview slots, lower GPA medians for NYC branches (~.1 lower median and .25 lower max gpa on average it seems), and a lot more SA positions.

I really hope career services pushes everyone toward NYC this year. If I wasn't literally stuck in DC because of personal obligations, I'd be bidding anywhere but here. If you just want to be on the east coast, I'd seriously consider NYC and/or Boston.

[Anonymous User]

What range firms are you lookng at in DC, doc?

[doctoroflaw]

What range firms are you looking at in DC, doc?

I am not really bidding according to vault so much. Some of the hardest firms (for callback/hiring) are the easiest to get bids. Granted this varies based upon where people placed these firms and where you place them on your list. Also, I don't really know how the algorithm works... I'd guess people get between 5-12 interviews?

I would say to bid on the full spread of firms, excluding firms if median GPA is more than slightly above your GPA. Maybe throw in 3 reaches and hope everyone is scared off. I'd also be wary of firms that have a maximum GPA significantly less than your GPA. Those firms are likely going to yield protect and don't want people higher than that maximum. Compare the old spreadsheet to the updated spreadsheet and see whether their max GPA went up. If it did, they are trying to move up in the world and want people above that old max. If not, I'd guess they want a certain range/caliber of grades then want personality, WE, or some other criteria.

So basically, my strategy is spray-and-pray. I'm trying to avoid super competitively bid firms while also maximizing the likelihood I will fit. If you get 3 interviews you have bad odds regardless of what firms. If you get 12 interviews at firms you don't match with you have bad odds. To do that I am just mixing together firms from V10-V100 with GPAs +.05 to -.5 from mine.

What about you?

[nealric]

If you guys are DC bound, make sure to throw in some NYC bids and do a lot of hustling for more interviews by handing out resumes. People who bid DC only tend to only get 8-9 interviews, while some secondary market people can get 20+.

Protip: Sometimes you can bid a firm's NYC office and let the NYC interviewer know you are also interested in the DC office.

[Anonymous User]

How can you pull that off w/o seeming less committed to either city? Or is that less of an issue with major markets like NY/DC?

[doctoroflaw]

If you guys are DC bound, make sure to throw in some NYC bids and do a lot of hustling for more interviews by handing out resumes. People who bid DC only tend to only get 8-9 interviews, while some secondary market people can get 20+.

Protip: Sometimes you can bid a firm's NYC office and let the NYC interviewer know you are also interested in the DC office.

That's good advice. I'd avoid bidding DC entirely if at all possible. From what I can tell DC class sizes are like 1/5th the size of NYC classes and bidding is much more competitive to even get screening interviews.

Do you think it is better to send resumes via mail/email ahead of OCI or to go around during breaks and literally hand out resumes in person?

[nealric]

How can you pull that off w/o seeming less committed to either city? Or is that less of an issue with major markets like NY/DC?

NYC doesn't really care about ties or specific interest. You should be at least willing to look at NY if you take that tack though. Just mention during the interview that you are also interested in the DC office (sometimes they will even ask). A lot of times the interviewer for the NY office is actually someone sent over from the DC office to avoid travel.

[Anonymous User]

What range firms are you looking at in DC, doc?

I am not really bidding according to vault so much. Some of the hardest firms (for callback/hiring) are the easiest to get bids. Granted this varies based upon where people placed these firms and where you place them on your list. Also, I don't really know how the algorithm works... I'd guess people get between 5-12 interviews?

I would say to bid on the full spread of firms, excluding firms if median GPA is more than slightly above your GPA. Maybe throw in 3 reaches and hope everyone is scared off. I'd also be wary of firms that have a maximum GPA significantly less than your GPA. Those firms are likely going to yield protect and don't want people higher than that maximum. Compare the old spreadsheet to the updated spreadsheet and see whether their max GPA went up. If it did, they are trying to move up in the world and want people above that old max. If not, I'd guess they want a certain range/caliber of grades then want personality, WE, or some other criteria.

So basically, my strategy is spray-and-pray. I'm trying to avoid super competitively bid firms while also maximizing the likelihood I will fit. If you get 3 interviews you have bad odds regardless of what firms. If you get 12 interviews at firms you don't match with you have bad odds. To do that I am just mixing together firms from V10-V100 with GPAs +.05 to -.5 from mine.

What about you?

Pretty much the same thing. I'm also mixing in some firms w/ median GPAs .2-.3 less than mine. Do you think that's a waste of a bid?

Anybody know how much firms "yield protect" when your GPA is substantially higher than the average from your school?

[NYAssociate]

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