Advice for 1L job search Forum

[acdisagod]

As an upcoming 1L at a lower T-14 I'm looking for some advice on my upcoming job search. I found this great post: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... l#p3085703 but it was mostly about 2L OCI there was not very much for 1Ls. A few questions:

1. Without connections or IP backgrounds, is targetting a paid SA position a waste of time? My guess is it's unlikely but probably worth trying.

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

3. How would it be viewed by future employers if I didn't work at a firm but instead worked with the lawyers who work in house at an investment company?

4. What are the best recources aside from Guerilla Tactics for drafting a strong cover letter/ what should go in a strong cover letter?

I know this is slightly gunnerish but I'm at work, have finished all work I've been assigned, and I have literally nothing to do for hours...

[verdandi]

IMHO, this is VERY gunnerish of you. But since I have a great deal of sympathy for 0Ls, especially given the handringing over jobs permeating this site, I understand the desire to get a jump on employment as early as possible. I'll bite.

1. Without connections or IP backgrounds, is targetting a paid SA position a waste of time? My guess is it's unlikely but probably worth trying.

This will depend entirely on grades and your school. I have a friend in the T14 who has a summer associate position in DC, sans connections, in a litigation firm. However, I'm pretty certain that student had top grades. So yes, it is possible, and probably more possible next year than this year. That being said, if you really want this, don't spend your time working on your job search and spend time preparing for 1L year. You can find numerous threads on 1L, though my advice is always to READ as much as possible that is related to the law, such as books like The Nine or the NYTimes/WSJ.

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Again, some positions will be entirely grade dependent. However, since the marginal cost of sending additional applications to judges is very small, you should blanket all the district court and COA judges in your area. Also consider expanding your geographical restrictions and choose a couple of other cities, as well as state supreme courts. Be prepared to cold-send a lot of judges.

3. How would it be viewed by future employers if I didn't work at a firm but instead worked with the lawyers who work in house at an investment company?

This is a question for your career services office, but my very uneducated opinion would be that such a job would be very attractive to future employers. I would advise you to reach out to any business law association at your school, ONCE YOU GET TO CAMPUS, to see if any upperclassmen have done this and what their advice would be. This is one of those questions that is difficult to find good advice for on a general message board, as your experience and the benefits from the job will vary widely depending on the kind of company you work for, the company's prestige, etc. Since it is all speculative at this point, I would wait to decide whether you want to do this until you get more concrete advice from someone at your school.

4. What are the best resources aside from Guerilla Tactics for drafting a strong cover letter/ what should go in a strong cover letter?

Check with your OCS; they probably have sample coverletters and resumes you can look at. Once you get to campus, student organizations often provide coverletters and resumes of former members to their current membership, and often will pair you with an upperclass mentor if you so desire. Other than that I think guerrilla tactics is probably your best bet.

Good luck. As I said above, much of your job search will turn on your grades, so focus first on making those as good as possible. What you can do during the summer, however, to help yourself is to make a calendar of what you want to accomplish when, set yourself some substantive deadlines, and stick to your schedule. You'll thank yourself later in the year when you have a plan and your classmates are scrambling.

[acdisagod]

IMHO, this is VERY gunnerish of you. But since I have a great deal of sympathy for 0Ls, especially given the handringing over jobs permeating this site, I understand the desire to get a jump on employment as early as possible. I'll bite.

1. Without connections or IP backgrounds, is targetting a paid SA position a waste of time? My guess is it's unlikely but probably worth trying.

This will depend entirely on grades and your school. I have a friend in the T14 who has a summer associate position in DC, sans connections, in a litigation firm. However, I'm pretty certain that student had top grades. So yes, it is possible, and probably more possible next year than this year. That being said, if you really want this, don't spend your time working on your job search and spend time preparing for 1L year. You can find numerous threads on 1L, though my advice is always to READ as much as possible that is related to the law, such as books like The Nine or the NYTimes/WSJ.

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Again, some positions will be entirely grade dependent. However, since the marginal cost of sending additional applications to judges is very small, you should blanket all the district court and COA judges in your area. Also consider expanding your geographical restrictions and choose a couple of other cities, as well as state supreme courts. Be prepared to cold-send a lot of judges.

3. How would it be viewed by future employers if I didn't work at a firm but instead worked with the lawyers who work in house at an investment company?

This is a question for your career services office, but my very uneducated opinion would be that such a job would be very attractive to future employers. I would advise you to reach out to any business law association at your school, ONCE YOU GET TO CAMPUS, to see if any upperclassmen have done this and what their advice would be. This is one of those questions that is difficult to find good advice for on a general message board, as your experience and the benefits from the job will vary widely depending on the kind of company you work for, the company's prestige, etc. Since it is all speculative at this point, I would wait to decide whether you want to do this until you get more concrete advice from someone at your school.

4. What are the best resources aside from Guerilla Tactics for drafting a strong cover letter/ what should go in a strong cover letter?

Check with your OCS; they probably have sample coverletters and resumes you can look at. Once you get to campus, student organizations often provide coverletters and resumes of former members to their current membership, and often will pair you with an upperclass mentor if you so desire. Other than that I think guerrilla tactics is probably your best bet.

Good luck. As I said above, much of your job search will turn on your grades, so focus first on making those as good as possible. What you can do during the summer, however, to help yourself is to make a calendar of what you want to accomplish when, set yourself some substantive deadlines, and stick to your schedule. You'll thank yourself later in the year when you have a plan and your classmates are scrambling.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. In terms of number three the company is a midsize investment company (offices in all 50 states) with a strong reputation. I'm currently working there this summer and I could work there next summer, my only concern is I doubt the work would be much more substantative than the very basic legal research I'm doing now as a 0L.

Yea and I realize this is gunnerish but as I said, I'm at work, most websites are blocked by our filter and I have nothing to do until tuesday or wednesday.

[98234872348]

IMHO, this is VERY gunnerish of you. But since I have a great deal of sympathy for 0Ls, especially given the handringing over jobs permeating this site, I understand the desire to get a jump on employment as early as possible. I'll bite.

How is wanting to get a head start on summer employment gunnerish at all? I'd argue that one of the most useful things you can do as a 0L is develop a working list of potential employers.

[ggocat]

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Federal COA could happen. I recommend sending out resumes before grades (November-ish). Some judges fill their quota of interns before December (and certainly before grades are available). Some judges don't interview until February/March, though, and will want grades and/or writing sample. For these judges, many will hold your early application so you can supplement (assuming you send them a resume without knowing they hire later).

[romothesavior]

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Federal COA could happen. I recommend sending out resumes before grades (November-ish). Some judges fill their quota of interns before December (and certainly before grades are available). Some judges don't interview until February/March, though, and will want grades and/or writing sample. For these judges, many will hold your early application so you can supplement (assuming you send them a resume without knowing they hire later).

Curious... how do they do this before December? Are we even allowed to contact them before Dec. 1?

[acdisagod]

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Federal COA could happen. I recommend sending out resumes before grades (November-ish). Some judges fill their quota of interns before December (and certainly before grades are available). Some judges don't interview until February/March, though, and will want grades and/or writing sample. For these judges, many will hold your early application so you can supplement (assuming you send them a resume without knowing they hire later).

How do I go about contacting a judge? Do I just send my cover letter and resume or is there a different process?

Also to the other poster, I think Dec. 1st is just for nalp firms.

[Bosque]

I won't berate you for being a gunner. I think you already know that. Instead, I will try and be helpful.

As an upcoming 1L at a lower T-14 I'm looking for some advice on my upcoming job search. I found this great post: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... l#p3085703 but it was mostly about 2L OCI there was not very much for 1Ls. A few questions:

1. Without connections or IP backgrounds, is targetting a paid SA position a waste of time? My guess is it's unlikely but probably worth trying.

Depends on what you mean by connections. If you have a tie to a secondary market where they are going to value having a connection to the community, go ahead and apply. Those are the "connections" everyone talks about. You don't have to be family friends with a hiring partner at the firm. That won't hurt you, but it is not by any means a prerequisite to getting a paying job your 1L summer.

If you are trying to work for pay this (upcoming) summer in a major market like DC, NYC, or LA, then I would say that you might want to focus your energy elsewhere. Even then, go ahead and throw out a few apps, they take maybe an hour or two to complete. But I wouldn't waste too much of your time looking.

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

This is going to sound like a huge cop out, but it depends on the judge. Do they like hiring from their alma matter? Do they like hiring from the local school? Do they like hiring locals who went of to T14s? How busy are they? Do they like doing most of their research themselves, or do they love relying on clerks/interns?

If you want to work for a judge, just send them out. I wouldn't be worrying about the level of judge at this point. ANY judge is going to teach you a lot. In fact, if you are thinking you want to go into litigation, I would suggest you try and clerk for a state or federal district court judge over a court of appeals judge, as seeing the process from the side of the bench can be extremely helpful (or so I have been told).

3. How would it be viewed by future employers if I didn't work at a firm but instead worked with the lawyers who work in house at an investment company?

It would look absolutely fine.

4. What are the best recources aside from Guerilla Tactics for drafting a strong cover letter/ what should go in a strong cover letter?

I know this is slightly gunnerish but I'm at work, have finished all work I've been assigned, and I have literally nothing to do for hours...

You want to include your connection to the area the place is you are applying to (especially if it is not DC, NYC, LA, ect.). If you know someone at the firm/judges office/US attorney's office/company who you talked to before sending this letter out, you might want to carefully work in a shout out so that the recruiting committee/coordinator knows they can go to that person to find out more about you. If you cannot do it in a way that does not sound like blatant name dropping though, don't bother.

You also want to include a brief description of why you are interested in working there. If you have some personal experience that makes this particular area of the law special to you, mention it. Try to sound really engaged without being annoying. And I wouldn't try and sell them on how you are going to help them. You are a 1L, the simple fact of the matter is you know almost nothing. You might end up providing some unique perspective that saves a case, but most likely the job is just going to be a learning experience for you and recruitment tool for them, and they know it.

And most of all, be CERTAIN to keep it one page or less. The letter needs to be brief and to the point. You are a 1L, nothing you have done up to this point validates you running on to a second page.

Hopefully that helps.

[Bosque]

Also to the other poster, I think Dec. 1st is just for nalp firms.

Yah, those guidelines apply to all legal employment. It doesn't matter if the firm is a member or not, YOU are bound by it because your law school is a member. Besides, courts and other government positions are members anyway. Quick search of the NALP directory confirms that at least some of the upper courts are members. And while the lower courts may not be members, I will bet five cents to a nickel that they will follow the guidelines too.

Don't go contacting before December 1st. They might ignore the guidelines and talk to you, or they might reject you outright for not following the rules. Just remember, that December 1st date is there to protect you, not them. Whenever you break it you are hurting us all.

[ggocat]

2. What judges should I be targetting? Of course judges in my area but should I target all judges or is COA not going to happen?

Federal COA could happen. I recommend sending out resumes before grades (November-ish). Some judges fill their quota of interns before December (and certainly before grades are available). Some judges don't interview until February/March, though, and will want grades and/or writing sample. For these judges, many will hold your early application so you can supplement (assuming you send them a resume without knowing they hire later).

How do I go about contacting a judge? Do I just send my cover letter and resume or is there a different process?

Yep, resume and cover letter (and a list of references is easy to include, as well). If you have a decent writing sample and are applying late (second semester), go ahead and send a writing sample.

[verdandi]

Ah, I should have made clear my tone was more tongue in cheek than berating. This'll learn me to use emoticons with more frequency

Anyways, just to add to the discussion of judges, it is my estimation that the writing sample is of UTMOST importance. Not the substance, mind you, but the cleanliness: I got dinged from a district court judge for, among other things, failing to make the number of spaces between my sentences consistent. Yes, some judges are that anal, and I think this is especially true of district court judges because some of them give you substantive work right off the bat. So while this advice might not help you now since there is little to do about it during the summer, definitely keep it in mind if you are determined to apply for judges.

One other thing: at some schools, internships with judges do not count as public service and therefore do not qualify for public service summer scholarships.

[ggocat]

NALP guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are completely voluntary. http://www.nalp.org/principles ("Compliance with the Principles is voluntary, yet virtually all ABA-accredited law schools and many of the nation's legal employers subscribe to these guidelines.")

You do not need to follow the NALP guidelines unless you have a good reason to do so. Two such reasons:
1. Your school requires you to follow NALP guidelines for all employers. Review your student handbook and inquire with the relevant people at your school. Most likely your school has no such requirement. If your student handbook is silent, I would ignore the guidelines w/r/t judges.
2. NALP employers may ding you. Certainly abide by NALP guidelines for employers who say they follow NALP guidelines. Look at the NALP directory to see if your potential employer is a NALP employer.

[acdisagod]

NALP guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are completely voluntary. http://www.nalp.org/principles ("Compliance with the Principles is voluntary, yet virtually all ABA-accredited law schools and many of the nation's legal employers subscribe to these guidelines.")

You do not need to follow the NALP guidelines unless you have a good reason to do so. Two such reasons:
1. Your school requires you to follow NALP guidelines for all employers. Review your student handbook and inquire with the relevant people at your school. Most likely your school has no such requirement. If your student handbook is silent, I would ignore the guidelines w/r/t judges.
2. NALP employers may ding you. Certainly abide by NALP guidelines for employers who say they follow NALP guidelines. Look at the NALP directory to see if your potential employer is a NALP employer.

Thanks

Also wow at getting dinged for not keeping the spaces between sentences consistent, I did not know that was noticable...

One more question, I have heard that for the most part it doesn't matter that much for 2L hiring where you worked for 1L. Would getting an SA position or COA be an exception? Also, is working for a judge>unpaid work with a small firm?

[ggocat]

One more question, I have heard that for the most part it doesn't matter that much for 2L hiring where you worked for 1L. Would getting an SA position or COA be an exception? Also, is working for a judge>unpaid work with a small firm?

Even if you get a biglaw SA or COA internship, I don't think it matters much to future employers. It might make for good conversation in the interview, but probably not a huge deal. A very prestigious position may be impressive, but it won't make up for lower grades or a bad interview

I think your summer work should be tailored to your career goals. If you might want to clerk, then try interning for a judge. If you might want to join a small firm or hang a shingle, then intern at a small firm (though, I think most decent small firms will pay you something). I wanted to clerk, so I spent most of my internships with judges. Something I regret, though, is not working for a small firm/solo to gain some exposure to that type of work.

[acdisagod]

So when is the earliest you would want to contact non-nalp firms who do not list a time to start applying and judges? I saw the nalp firms all say dec. 1st on their website so what about these firms that do not list times. I'm trying to get a job in a secondary market in addition to applying to larger firms in nyc. Would it be best to just call each smaller firm and ask if they are hiring 1L's and if they are when they want an application by?

Oh and is it worth it to apply to nalp firms that do not list themselves as hiring 1L's? Does that mean they won't hire 1L's for market rate or they just won't look at an application period? I'm only asking because there are only 25 nalp firms listed as hiring 1L's in new york which seems kind of small

[acdisagod]

bump for an answer to last group of questions

/me hijacking the employment thread

[Anonymous User]

I think your summer work should be tailored to your career goals. If you might want to clerk, then try interning for a judge. If you might want to join a small firm or hang a shingle, then intern at a small firm (though, I think most decent small firms will pay you something). I wanted to clerk, so I spent most of my internships with judges. Something I regret, though, is not working for a small firm/solo to gain some exposure to that type of work.

Just wanted to post to affirm this response. I am currently working for a Federal COA judge this summer as a 1L and this experience is exceptional if you are interested in clerking. It is also a fantastic job if you would like to do any kind of litigation or appellate level work; you do indeed get to witness the process first hand and take part in the most interesting cases on the docket.

[animalcrkrs]

This thread is a good resource if you haven't seen it/it hasn't already been posted and I missed it : http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=107596

So when is the earliest you would want to contact non-nalp firms who do not list a time to start applying and judges? I saw the nalp firms all say dec. 1st on their website so what about these firms that do not list times. I'm trying to get a job in a secondary market in addition to applying to larger firms in nyc. Would it be best to just call each smaller firm and ask if they are hiring 1L's and if they are when they want an application by?

Oh and is it worth it to apply to nalp firms that do not list themselves as hiring 1L's? Does that mean they won't hire 1L's for market rate or they just won't look at an application period? I'm only asking because there are only 25 nalp firms listed as hiring 1L's in new york which seems kind of small

Re: this, judges you want to check with your school, some like mine have strict judge-contacting requirements/timelines that they keep internally and rules (e.g. must apply to x, x, and x court via this school-moderated resume book, and then if you get an offer from of the judges in those courts you MUST take it unless you already have an offer from someone else)

Re: nalp, if a firm is in nalp, they will comply with the Dec. 1 deadline and so will your school, it is a sort of reciprocity agreement they all keep. non-nalp firms do not have the same rules, but some will go with the Dec. 1 date anyway.

It can't hurt to contact any firm you are interested in and just ask if they are considering 1L resumes for positions. Usually if you get hired by a firm for the summer as a 1L your rate will be the same as a 2L summer is my understanding so it's not a rate issue, but I doubt NALP keeps so current as to know the needs of the firm as much as the firm itself does in real time (so a firm might not usually consider 1Ls but come January when you call they realize they have a really weak 2L pool coming in or something so they say why not look at a 1L resume or two?) My angle here would be to call rather than email however, so if a firm is touchy about being contacted re: info that is on nalp that they DON'T hire them, you would want to keep your anonymity.

A lot of firms have stopped hiring 1Ls altogether, just the reality of the more conservative market ITE. They know they have a lower chance of getting you back if you 2L summer somewhere else and you're less experienced/have fewer grades to show, so most firms are thinking why take a chance when there are plenty of hungry jobless 2Ls and even 3Ls.

[acdisagod]

I think your summer work should be tailored to your career goals. If you might want to clerk, then try interning for a judge. If you might want to join a small firm or hang a shingle, then intern at a small firm (though, I think most decent small firms will pay you something). I wanted to clerk, so I spent most of my internships with judges. Something I regret, though, is not working for a small firm/solo to gain some exposure to that type of work.

Just wanted to post to affirm this response. I am currently working for a Federal COA judge this summer as a 1L and this experience is exceptional if you are interested in clerking. It is also a fantastic job if you would like to do any kind of litigation or appellate level work; you do indeed get to witness the process first hand and take part in the most interesting cases on the docket.

I am defintiely interested in litigation, possibly in clerking. How were you able to get federal COA as a 1L? Good grades, connections? When did you apply by?

[acdisagod]

This thread is a good resource if you haven't seen it/it hasn't already been posted and I missed it : http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=107596

So when is the earliest you would want to contact non-nalp firms who do not list a time to start applying and judges? I saw the nalp firms all say dec. 1st on their website so what about these firms that do not list times. I'm trying to get a job in a secondary market in addition to applying to larger firms in nyc. Would it be best to just call each smaller firm and ask if they are hiring 1L's and if they are when they want an application by?

Oh and is it worth it to apply to nalp firms that do not list themselves as hiring 1L's? Does that mean they won't hire 1L's for market rate or they just won't look at an application period? I'm only asking because there are only 25 nalp firms listed as hiring 1L's in new york which seems kind of small

Re: this, judges you want to check with your school, some like mine have strict judge-contacting requirements/timelines that they keep internally and rules (e.g. must apply to x, x, and x court via this school-moderated resume book, and then if you get an offer from of the judges in those courts you MUST take it unless you already have an offer from someone else)

Re: nalp, if a firm is in nalp, they will comply with the Dec. 1 deadline and so will your school, it is a sort of reciprocity agreement they all keep. non-nalp firms do not have the same rules, but some will go with the Dec. 1 date anyway.

It can't hurt to contact any firm you are interested in and just ask if they are considering 1L resumes for positions. Usually if you get hired by a firm for the summer as a 1L your rate will be the same as a 2L summer is my understanding so it's not a rate issue, but I doubt NALP keeps so current as to know the needs of the firm as much as the firm itself does in real time (so a firm might not usually consider 1Ls but come January when you call they realize they have a really weak 2L pool coming in or something so they say why not look at a 1L resume or two?) My angle here would be to call rather than email however, so if a firm is touchy about being contacted re: info that is on nalp that they DON'T hire them, you would want to keep your anonymity.

A lot of firms have stopped hiring 1Ls altogether, just the reality of the more conservative market ITE. They know they have a lower chance of getting you back if you 2L summer somewhere else and you're less experienced/have fewer grades to show, so most firms are thinking why take a chance when there are plenty of hungry jobless 2Ls and even 3Ls.

Thanks, great post! I also can't beleive I missed that other thread.

[Anonymous User]

I am defintiely interested in litigation, possibly in clerking. How were you able to get federal COA as a 1L? Good grades, connections? When did you apply by?

(I am a different anon than the one you quoted)

I did a USCOA internship during 2L summer. Primarily got the job because one of my profs knew the judge and made a call on my behalf. Before I found out about the connection, I had sent the judge my resume in early August. Heard nothing for about six weeks (when the prof made the phone call). TTT school, top 10%, law review--I'm pretty sure it was the profs call that sealed the deal.

The judge also had a 2L from a Tier 1/2 borderline school (top 20-25%), a 1L from a local tier 2 (#1 in her class), and a 1L from a TTT (not sure about grades). I didn't ask about how they got the internships.

[animalcrkrs]

No problem acd-- my best bit of advice honestly is that you shouldn't worry too much about the job hunt until after your first semester exams, especially since you will likely be banned from firm contact until Dec. 1 and the Dec. 1 release date coincides nicely (not) with exam prep in most cases lol....the exception to this is if you are determined to get a firm gig no matter what or aiming for a more presitgious judicial externship, in which case the time you put in might be worth the effort...

Outside of this situation the best thing to do first semster aside from getting awesome grades is to make sure your resume is up to date and run it by the career office/others, get any references lined up from former employers/professors (and add a 1L first semester prof to that list after you get grades back) and start making a 'shell' cover letter with the meat of your strengths etc. that you can later customize for the employers during the spring semester.

[acdisagod]

So would you mail all the judges on a given court or do you pick one? Also, when do judges usually want applications by?