Straight Passing at YLS: OCI Chances - Poll Forum

[doyleoil]

I'd bet sealocust is actually right in his musing.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that not a single YLS student actually wants Cadwalader. (For the record, I suspect that's a fair assumption.) And we know that 4 / 190 (~2% of the class) ended up there. Is it so crazy to assume that straight Ps, even at YLS, place you below the acceptable "GPA" range for a V5 in this fucking awful economy? (You'd have to guess that the "median" YLS student has > 1 H, right?)

Just grasping in the air here but I dont think this an erroneous leap in logic.

this post brings up a completely unrelated question I have about firm rankings... what's the fundamental difference between working at a V10 and something ranked slightly lower (like maybe 20-50)? job security (lol)? better bonuses/salary increases?

[Insert heavy disclaimer / caveat about how I apparently know nothing here]: The V10 is a horrible cutoff, people just like deciles. Broadly speaking though, they have a mix of prestige and size that means things in terms of exit options, salary, and stability. They get (better) clients who tend to hire associates for whom firm life doesn't work out, when shit turns south work can migrate 'to the top' (for evidence of this, see the precipitous drop in offer rate as you slide down the V100). But the list itself is heavily NYC-centric: Skadden will always be easier to get than Covington, W&C will always be more selective than any firm ranked between it and Wachtell, etc. The firms also tend to come with more intense reputation (see, e.g., surveys of average hours worked) - they tend to, if the data are accurate, squeeze just a little more blood out of their associates than the firms that come later on the list.

As an incidental effect of how vault does its surveys and rankings, the V10 also heavily emphasize firms that attract the best M&A / corporate / financial deals and work, which to a certain section of the law student population is very attractive. To others, obviously, it's irrelevant.

i think people are just a little turned off by your conclusory "op is not fucking getting skadden" - it's not like you have a gpa sheet with yale "numbers" and offer info

granted everyone's become more selective - but there are too many variables (including the infamous yale mystique) for you to be that hard-line

[yesofcourse]

I'm at Yale.

My grades are 7 CRs* and 3 Ps

Can I break V50? V25? V10? V5?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
GRADES FOR ALL DEGREE STUDENTS
Honors: Work done in the course is significantly superior to the average level of perfor-
mance in the School.
Pass: Successful performance of the work in the course.
Low Pass: Work done in the course is below the level of performance expected for the
award of a degree.
Credit: The course has been completed satisfactorily; no particular level of performance
is specified.
Failure: No credit is given for the course.

There is no required “curve” for grades in Law School classes.
Individual class rank is not computed.

Wow, how desperate can a school be to distinguish itself? Heaven forbid it substituted an A, A- for Honors; a B+, B for pass; a B-, C for low pass etc. You get the point. No curve here either b/c all of our students are so incredibly exceptional, but not so much that we don't give them non-grades. mhmmmmmm

[Tautology]

Wow, how desperate can a school be to distinguish itself? Heaven forbid it substituted an A, A- for Honors; a B+, B for pass; a B-, C for low pass etc. You get the point. No curve here either b/c all of our students are so incredibly exceptional, but not so much that we don't give them non-grades. mhmmmmmm

You're right, they did it to distinguish themselves . . .

[thesealocust]

edit: n/m

[doyleoil]

Wow, how desperate can a school be to distinguish itself? Heaven forbid it substituted an A, A- for Honors; a B+, B for pass; a B-, C for low pass etc. You get the point. No curve here either b/c all of our students are so incredibly exceptional, but not so much that we don't give them non-grades. mhmmmmmm

You're right, they did it to distinguish themselves . . .

you're right, the post isn't on point - but the fact of the matter is this type of grading nonsense is part of the reason saying "i'm a lawyer" doesn't get you the respect saying "i'm a doctor" does

all graduating from yale tells anyone about you is that you knew how to take a standardized test, how to pick the right major in college, and how to have rich parents

granted that's not a sufficient description of most yale grads - but the fact that you graduated from the school? nothing...you could still be a fucking dunce of a lawyer

you know what the t14 should start doing again? flunking people out

[markymark]

I mean, I'm happy to have the conversation end here if you don't want to drag it out into specifics - but if I'm improperly informed, it's not for lack of information. I'm staring at GPA cut offs and/or hiring numbers from multiple years of OCI from a half dozen or so schools here. As appeal to authority, that means nothing, maybe I'm totally wrong. But if you don't point out to me statement X, Y, or Z that seemed fallacious I have a hard time figuring out why others (who, I believe, are also rising 2Ls) chafe so much at the information I am providing.

where did you get info on GPA cutoffs? care to share?

maybe I'm perceiving your comments as misinformed because I'm just starting to get into all this data myself.

this.

[dbt]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

[Anonymous User]

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc.

How are we defining Biglaw?

[dbt]

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc.

How are we defining Biglaw?

A law firm that pays market.

[markymark]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

[dbt]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Where are you getting this from? This sounds wayyyy off mark from the information I've seen.

Most people at T10 schools just above median are struggling to find a biglaw job in the first place. Skadden may not be as selective as its rank, but it's not bottom of the barrel either.

[Hiei]

I'd bet sealocust is actually right in his musing.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that not a single YLS student actually wants Cadwalader. (For the record, I suspect that's a fair assumption.) And we know that 4 / 190 (~2% of the class) ended up there. Is it so crazy to assume that straight Ps, even at YLS, place you below the acceptable "GPA" range for a V5 in this fucking awful economy? (You'd have to guess that the "median" YLS student has > 1 H, right?)

Just grasping in the air here but I dont think this an erroneous leap in logic.

this post brings up a completely unrelated question I have about firm rankings... what's the fundamental difference between working at a V10 and something ranked slightly lower (like maybe 20-50)? job security (lol)? better bonuses/salary increases?

It think it's the employment equivalent of attending CLS.

Extremely incorrect---there are several firms in the vault 50 that are much more selective (and arguably prestigious) than any V10 outside of Wachtell ( Irell, Boies, and especially Munger are a good deal more selective than almost all of the vault 10).

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

+10000 Skadden is not nearly as selective as people in this thread are making them out to be. A lot of people really don't seem to understand that the vault rankings are not like law school rankings when it comes to selectivity and prestige. There is a massive overstatement of the selectivity and prestige of the V10 on TLS.

[markymark]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Where are you getting this from? This sounds wayyyy off mark from the information I've seen.

Most people at T10 schools just above median are struggling to find a biglaw job in the first place. Skadden may not be as selective as its rank, but it's not bottom of the barrel either.

I personally know 3 people at Skadden (2 NY and 1 CHI) with above median to "not quite top 1/3" grades. None of the 3 had anything noteworthy on their resumes either (like LR). That being said, Skadden's recruiting process last year was all screwed up for various reasons and probably won't make the same mistake this fall.

[Hiei]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Where are you getting this from? This sounds wayyyy off mark from the information I've seen.

Most people at T10 schools just above median are struggling to find a biglaw job in the first place. Skadden may not be as selective as its rank, but it's not bottom of the barrel either.

He's not saying that but he is saying that a Yale grad with straight Ps is by no means shut out of skadden. A Penn grad with top 30 percent grades isn't shut out of Skadden--let alone a Yale grad with all P's. I don't understand why people overhype a lot of these V10 firms--even when you look at a lot of their firm bios you can see that people on TLS overhype their selectivity.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Some data on Skadden NY @ Yale OCI from last year:

~65 bids | ~ 15 interviews | 6 callbacks | 3 offers | 1 acceptance

Interviews are obtained via lottery based on student preferences; firms don't select candidates. Apparently, Yale students don't really give a damn about Skadden.

[dbt]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Where are you getting this from? This sounds wayyyy off mark from the information I've seen.

Most people at T10 schools just above median are struggling to find a biglaw job in the first place. Skadden may not be as selective as its rank, but it's not bottom of the barrel either.

He's not saying that but he is saying that a Yale grad with straight Ps is by no means shut out of skadden. A Penn grad with top 30 percent grades isn't shut out of Skadden--let alone a Yale grad with all P's. I don't understand why people overhype a lot of these V10 firms--even when you look at a lot of their firm bios you can see that people on TLS overhype their selectivity.

Well, there is a difference in top 30% at Penn and just above median at a top 10. And I really can't say as far as straight P's at Yale, because I have no idea what that means as far as rank. But if OP is below median at Yale, I think his chances aren't too great.

[dresden doll]

you know what the t14 should start doing again? flunking people out

Oh, that's just Chicago rigor talking from you. (I agree.)

[doyleoil]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Some data on Skadden NY @ Yale OCI from last year:

~65 bids | ~ 15 interviews | 6 callbacks | 3 offers | 1 acceptance

Interviews are obtained via lottery based on student preferences; firms don't select candidates. Apparently, Yale students don't really give a damn about Skadden.

perhaps not - but lol at the 9 who didn't get callbacks

[doyleoil]

you know what the t14 should start doing again? flunking people out

Oh, that's just Chicago rigor talking from you. (I agree.)

they've warped our souls

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure how anyone can speculate anything about OCI prospects without some idea of class rank.

My guess is that you have a shot at something in biglaw at Yale if you're top 85%. Give or take maybe a bit.

Where do I get this guess from? The fact that NYU placed 70% of its students through EIW.

End of the day though, OP will likely get biglaw. But it is highly unlikely that you're getting Skadden, etc. And avoid Cadwalader like the plague, if you can. But OP should be asking OCS, not a bunch of speculating TLSers

People in this thread are seriously misinformed. People from T10 schools got Skadden last year with slightly above median grades. Skadden is not nearly as selective as its vault ranking.

Some data on Skadden NY @ Yale OCI from last year:

~65 bids | ~ 15 interviews | 6 callbacks | 3 offers | 1 acceptance

Interviews are obtained via lottery based on student preferences; firms don't select candidates. Apparently, Yale students don't really give a damn about Skadden.

perhaps not - but lol at the 9 who didn't get callbacks

The callbacks listed reflect those who accepted a callback invitation, not those to whom invitations were extended. lol @ you.

[doyleoil]

The callbacks listed reflect those who accepted a callback invitation, not those to whom invitations were extended. lol @ you.

make the fucking data readable then, you clown

and exactly what happened to the three who went on callbacks but didn't get offers? pathetic

[dbt]

The callbacks listed reflect those who accepted a callback invitation, not those to whom invitations were extended. lol @ you.

Really? That sounds odd.

Still, half of those who did accept the callback didn't get an offer. I understand the Yale name is powerful (hell, I'm trying to transfer there). It just seems really unlikely that below-median Yale would get Skadden ITE.

[RVP11]

ITT: people underestimate the strength of YLS.

Top 85%????????????? GUFFAW. Try 100% of the class. As for YLS people going to Cadwalader, that probably has a lot more to do with poor interviewing skills (omg aspie) than with the fact that some YLS people have straight Ps.

[miamiman]

The callbacks listed reflect those who accepted a callback invitation, not those to whom invitations were extended. lol @ you.

make the fucking data readable then, you clown

and exactly what happened to the three who went on callbacks but didn't get offers? pathetic

Lol

[dbt]

ITT: people underestimate the strength of YLS.

Top 85%????????????? GUFFAW. Try 100% of the class. As for YLS people going to Cadwalader, that probably has a lot more to do with poor interviewing skills (omg aspie) than with the fact that some YLS people have straight Ps.

Hey if you've got the stats that's awesome news. I'd love to know that YLS is so amazing that while CCN median kids are hoping to get a firm job, YLS below median are sitting pretty on Skadden offers. But that is a significant difference in placement power. It would be awe-inspiring.