McDermott Will & Emery Pulls Offers (and questions) Forum

[miamiman]

--LinkRemoved--

1. What does "seconded" to a client mean?

2. Imagine you were one of the unfortunate 3 to be "chosen" for document review, do you take that job? If so, does it mean you forego any (future) possibility of being an associate somewhere?

3. How does MWE, or any firm for that matter, go about choosing which 3 to fuck over this way?

[ChewbaccaDefense]

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/mcdermot ... /#comments

1. What does "seconded" to a client mean?

2. Imagine you were one of the unfortunate 3 to be "chosen" for document review, do you take that job? If so, does it mean you forego any (future) possibility of being an associate somewhere?

3. How does MWE, or any firm for that matter, go about choosing which 3 to fuck over this way?

I was interested in this, too:

1) Secondment is when they are sent to work in a client's in-house department.

2) I'd probably take the gig and immediately crank my job search back up. However, I could see it essentially being the end of the road for an associateship at firms like MWE.

3) If it were me, I'd look at what the entering associates did with their time off. Those who managed to land something that would result in developing a skill useful to the firm would probably be okay. Those who decided to take a 1 year vacation were probably looked at very closely for doc review.

[Matthies]

Protip: You don't have a job until you start at that job, deferal means at best you might have a job when the deferal is over (see the stories posted above that as well). Don't stop looking for a job until you have a job, and even then ITE keep your feelers out.

[thesealocust]

edit: n/m

[miamiman]

Pro tip #2: Once officially no-offered from McDermott, These people are fucked in terms of ever becoming associates at a big law firm whether or not they take this job.

That was my question: are these unlucky few permanently derailed from the biglaw associate track?

In their position, is it be better to accept something, some form of employment to demonstrate continuity on their resume, than to forego the job and look elsewhere?

[thesealocust]

edit: n/m

[miamiman]

First point: Yes. If you do not get a 2L SA and begin working full time at that firm and stay at least a full year and probably closer to two, there's next to a 0% chance you'll be able to pull down any other kind of firm gig.

Second point: Depends on the person, alternatives, aspirations, connections, etc. Impossible to speak in generalities at the level - but given ITE and the fact that humans get hungry, need shelter, etc. taking the job seems prudent.

Yah. I guess. I just wonder how MWE set their crosshairs upon these three. Did the hiring committee go back to the impressions forged during the 8 weeks that these kids drafted memos that were neither read nor billed? Law school grades/rank? Further, how is a firm able to financially committ to 51 but not 54 associates?

[Matthies]

First point: Yes. If you do not get a 2L SA and begin working full time at that firm and stay at least a full year and probably closer to two, there's next to a 0% chance you'll be able to pull down any other kind of firm gig.

Second point: Depends on the person, alternatives, aspirations, connections, etc. Impossible to speak in generalities at the level - but given ITE and the fact that humans get hungry, need shelter, etc. taking the job seems prudent.

Yah. I guess. I just wonder how MWE set their crosshairs upon these three. Did the hiring committee go back to the impressions forged during the 8 weeks that these kids drafted memos that were neither read nor billed? Law school grades/rank? Further, how is a firm able to financially committ to 51 but not 54 associates?

Probably a combination of those that stayed in contact with the firm, those that did something while waiting legal related or to keep their resume sharpened/skills relevant/connections made, and the three that when contacted said I've been partying waiting for my job to start. Even big firms like candidates that show inative.

As to being forever locked out after being no offered, that's not an absolute, you can get a big law gig through knowing people and other methods, but likely given the fact these people got no offered they are not likely the type to A) know that or B) have any clue how to do that.

As to the last part they probably could have taken the three extra, but for some reason, likely the above, decided they were no longer worth the investment. I think in part many firms defered folks hoping they would go away before they had to actually hire them on fulltime, if that;s the case then anything, or doing nothing, gives them a reason to cut some chaf.

[crazycanuck]

First point: Yes. If you do not get a 2L SA and begin working full time at that firm and stay at least a full year and probably closer to two, there's next to a 0% chance you'll be able to pull down any other kind of firm gig.

Second point: Depends on the person, alternatives, aspirations, connections, etc. Impossible to speak in generalities at the level - but given ITE and the fact that humans get hungry, need shelter, etc. taking the job seems prudent.

Yah. I guess. I just wonder how MWE set their crosshairs upon these three. Did the hiring committee go back to the impressions forged during the 8 weeks that these kids drafted memos that were neither read nor billed? Law school grades/rank? Further, how is a firm able to financially committ to 51 but not 54 associates?[/quote]

3 associates at that level is still a lot of money. That's 30k each for the summer, plus training costs probably equal to another 30k each.

Sure to put it 51 vs. 54 employees doesn't seem like much, but what if you do the 480k (3 associates at 160k each) before bonuses. That's a lot of cash for people they don't think will pan out.

[Scallywaggums]

Has this "Discovery Attorney" position been around for a while?

If so, while ChewbaccaDefense & SeaLocust believe this is the end of the BigLaw road (with the potential exception of networking, via Methies), what ARE the realistic exit options? Just in terms of resume building; excluding networking.

[miamiman]

Has this "Discovery Attorney" position been around for a while?

If so, while ChewbaccaDefense & SeaLocust believe this is the end of the BigLaw road (with the potential exception of networking, via Methies), what ARE the realistic exit options? Just in terms of resume building; excluding networking.

That's the problem. Discovery "staff attorneys" are terminal positions. The yellow brick road on their legal career (apparently) ended once they got that fateful email.

[IAFG]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

[miamiman]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

knowledge is power? also, marry me?

[Scallywaggums]

That's the problem. Discovery "staff attorneys" are terminal positions. The yellow brick road on their legal career (apparently) ended once they got that fateful email.

?!?! But other legal terminal positions have exit options. Is a purely research position in this case NOT a lawyer/JD position? Granted, no more BigLaw... but I can't wrap my head around how that'd be the end.

[miamiman]

That's the problem. Discovery "staff attorneys" are terminal positions. The yellow brick road on their legal career (apparently) ended once they got that fateful email.

?!?! But other legal terminal positions have exit options. Is a purely research position in this case NOT a lawyer/JD position? Granted, no more BigLaw... but I can't wrap my head around how that'd be the end.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=staff+attorney+document+review

[Matthies]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

knowledge is power? also, marry me?

If you want to be knowledgeable about legal hiring, how to do it right, and how to guarantee you have a good job at graduation get a copy of that Guerilla Tactics book I all ways recommend. You will know more about getting a law job than 99% of those with a JD graduating from any law school and will know what to do if your ever faced with getting deferred.

[IAFG]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

knowledge is power? also, marry me?

in exchange for help with my bids?

[miamiman]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

knowledge is power? also, marry me?

in exchange for help with my bids?

you're bidding already on firms? you an Accelerated Accelerated NU JD?

[clintonius]

That's the problem. Discovery "staff attorneys" are terminal positions. The yellow brick road on their legal career (apparently) ended once they got that fateful email.

?!?! But other legal terminal positions have exit options. Is a purely research position in this case NOT a lawyer/JD position? Granted, no more BigLaw... but I can't wrap my head around how that'd be the end.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=staff+attorney+document+review

Your condescension is adorable. Did you actually look at any of the links that popped up?

Scally, try this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =3&t=53668

[Scallywaggums]

hyuckles. ::wince:: 2nd time.
Are law clerks JD/Lawyer positions?
Plz don't hit me again with it, 'cause I just googled law clerk and it doesn't specifically say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_clerk
I'm still reeling, though. These discovery positions at a BigLaw firm for $70K seem like they'd still be a solid place to land (if you disassociate it with being a BigLaw attorney). Even if you're not an attorney, wouldn't the experience count for something?. I mean, wouldn't your legal exit options be better than if you'd landed a burger-flipping position?

Thanks, clintonius.

[rayiner]

I think the jury is still out on this one. If the other 17 deferred associates do actually start this year, then my guess is that it's not *all* about not having enough work to keep those three busy. MWE will spend close to $10m on the rest of the associate class. They'll save $250k by having these guys work as staff attorneys, or about 2.5%. The actual loss will be much less, assuming these guys can do *some* useful work even if they aren't fully utilized. Can they predict their precise workload that precisely over the next year? It seems silly to risk the negative publicity for such a meager saving.

My guess would be that either these guys didn't have great SAs (would've been no-offered for summer 2008, but got a pass summer 2007 when things were hunky-dory), or that MWE is facing a cashflow issue.

[miamiman]

That's the problem. Discovery "staff attorneys" are terminal positions. The yellow brick road on their legal career (apparently) ended once they got that fateful email.

?!?! But other legal terminal positions have exit options. Is a purely research position in this case NOT a lawyer/JD position? Granted, no more BigLaw... but I can't wrap my head around how that'd be the end.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=staff+attorney+document+review

Your condescension is adorable. Did you actually look at any of the links that popped up?

Scally, try this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =3&t=53668

It's not condescending when the other person is lazy. A quick google search would have opened his eyes to the fact that staff attorney positions imply, in most cases, career suicide.

[IAFG]

honey, why do you spend so much time reading about/posting about our shitty job prospects? either it is worth the risk to you or it isn't. seems like you're giving yourself heartburn for no reason.

knowledge is power? also, marry me?

in exchange for help with my bids?

you're bidding already on firms? you an Accelerated Accelerated NU JD?

no no, just outsourcing the heavy lifting in advance. if left to my own devices i would probably bid on K&E and whichever firms names' sounded fun. "lol freshfields... bid!"

[Matthies]

hyuckles. ::wince:: 2nd time.
Are law clerks JD/Lawyer positions?
Plz don't hit me again with it, 'cause I just googled law clerk and it doesn't specifically say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_clerk
I'm still reeling, though. These discovery positions at a BigLaw firm for $70K seem like they'd still be a solid place to land (if you disassociate it with being a BigLaw attorney). Even if you're not an attorney, wouldn't the experience count for something?. I mean, wouldn't your legal exit options be better than if you'd landed a burger-flipping position?

Thanks, clintonius.

Law clerk can mean one of a few things: if you work for a judge as a law clerk you basically assist the judge (most of these are 1-2 year positions, although there are career law clerks too). A law clerk is also someone who works for a firm but is not a lcisinced attorney (like summer SA, waiting for bar results ect.). The problem with staff attorney/document review attorney is your not likley to get much experience and your likely to work on many different small projects (like reviewing all the e-mails from a client to see if there is anything discoverable in them). basically you don't have any chance to learn anything valuable or marketable to move forward in your career/offer another employer.

[Scallywaggums]

It seems silly to risk the negative publicity for such a meager saving.
My guess would be that either these guys didn't have great SAs (would've been no-offered for summer 2008, but got a pass summer 2007 when things were hunky-dory), or that MWE is facing a cashflow issue.

Agree. One other scary possibility: They're testing the waters to see if qualified students take the positions and are scheming about slowly increasing the number of these positions to wind up with a model where the more talented Attorneys have an army of talented reviewers. Gotta love division of labor.