2010 SA Class Sizes Forum

[Anonymous User]

A lot of my OCI-bidding strategy was based on focusing on firms that had big summer classes in 2009. This, in my view, improved my odds of receiving an offer. In my opinion, the elite firms with 100 student summer classes were as hard to get as the TTTs with 4 student classes, mostly because the latter were so much more selective in terms of fit. My goal was to find not-so-selective firms with big classes. Now, with 2010 data posted on NALP, I thought I'd compile the info for the V30 for everyone's benefit here on TLS. I might add more firms, depending on how sober I am.

(Info includes 2Ls only)
(Info focuses solely on NY offices)

1) Wachtell: 17
2) Cravath: 22
3) Skadden: 24
4) Sullivan & Cromwell: 70
5) Davis Polk: 74
6) Weil: 36
7) Simpson: 62
Cleary: 76
9) Covington (NY): 7
10) Kirkland (NY): ?
11) Williams & Connolly: N/A
12) Debevoise: 50
13) Paul Weiss: 58
14) Gibson (NY): 27
15) Sidley (NY): 12
16) WilmerHale (NY): 8
17) Latham (NY): 25
18) Arnold & Porter (NY): 10
19) Jones Day (NY): 19
20) White & Case: 21
21) Shearman: 27
22) OMM (NY): 9
23) Quinn NY: 26
24) Ropes NY: 22
25) Hogan NY: 7
26) clifford chance NY: 5
27) MoFo NY: 11
28) Mayer NY: 6
29) Linklaters NY: 22
30) Boies: ?

[BradyToMoss]

Useful information and interesting strategy. Just want to note that Quinn only submits one all-office firm, so the 23 in the NY office at Quinn is not true (closer to 10). Not sure if this mistake is repeated with any other firm on the list.

[wiseowl]

As another source, here are the Chambers numbers firmwide, not just NY (and there are some other discrepancies as well; NALP is probably more accurate)

I'll list the V30 in the same order OP did, then go alphabetical for whatever else was in the Chambers book

1) Wachtell - Did not respond
2) Cravath - 22-25
3) Skadden - 76
4) S&C - 78
5) Davis Polk - 81
6) Weil Gotshal - 40
7) Simpson - 71
8.) Cleary - 76
9) Covington - ~72
10) Kirkland - 64
11) Williams & Connolly - 21
12) Debevoise - Did not respond
13) Paul Weiss - ~80
14) Gibson - 109
15) Sidley - 51
16) WilmerHale - Did not respond
17) Latham - 110
18) Arnold & Porter - Did not respond
19) Jones Day - 121
20) White & Case - Did not respond
21) Shearman - 28
22) OMM - 56-60
23) Quinn - 27
24) Ropes - 76
25) Hogan - Did not respond
26) clifford chance - 10
27) MoFo - ~60
28) Mayer - 36-40
29) Linklaters - 23
30) Boies - 18

Akin Gump - 34
Allen & Overy - 15
Alston & Bird - 30-32
Andrews Kurth - 16
Baker & Daniels - 12-18
Baker & McKenzie - 24
Baker Botts - 62-65
Ballard Spahr - 2
Bingham McCutcheon - 43
Bracewell & Giuliani - 50-55
Brownstein Hyatt - 8
Buchanan Ingersoll - 3
Cadwalader - 31
Cahill - 16
Chadbourne & Parke - 15-20
Choate Hall - 0
Cooley - 22
Crowell & Moring - 22
Dechert - 35
Dewey & LeBoeuf - 46
Dickstein Shapiro - 16
dla piper - 35
Dorsey & Whitney - ~15
Duane Morris - 8-10
Faegre - 23
Finnegan - 20-21
Fitzpatrick Cella - 22
Foley & Lardner - 35
Freshfields - 17
Fried Frank - 45
Fulbright - 57-60
Gibbons - 0
Haynes & Boone - 41
Holland & Hart - 6
Holme Roberts - 2
Hunton & Williams - 10
Irell - 37
Jackson Walker - 18
K&L Gates - Did not respond
Katten Muchin - 9
Kaye Scholer - 11
Kramer Levin - 19
Linklaters - 23
McCarter & English - 0
McDermott Will - 33
mcguirewoods - 11
McKenna Long - 22
Munger Tolles - 18-20
Nixon Peabody - 30-31
Orrick - 31
Patterson Belknap - 9
Patton Boggs - 21
Paul Hastings - ~90
Perkins Coie - ~30
Pillsbury - 17
Proskauer - 36
Reed Smith - 21
Schiff Hardin - 13
Shook Hardy - 10
Sidley - 51
Snell & Wilmer - 19
Steptoe - 14
Stroock - 16
Sullivan & Worcester - 6
Troutman Sanders - 21
Vinson & Elkins - 100
Wiley Rein - 13
williams mullen - 15
Wilkie Farr - 18
Wilson Sonsini - 44
Winston & Strawn - 43

[Anonymous User]

Chadbourne & Parke is 14.

[Anonymous User]

kirkland ny is 12

[Anonymous User]

kirkland ny is 12

i think we're working together...

[Anonymous User]

quinn ny is 10

[bradley]

Is it just me, or don't these numbers seem all that bad? Any comparable numbers from previous years available?

[Anonymous User]

Weil, Cravath, and Skadden each had SA classes approaching 100 last year, so we're looking at a net reduction of at least 210 jobs in the V10 alone, not including the shrinkage of class sizes for places like DPW, Cleary, and S&C (which weren't as dramatic as Weil, Cravath, and Skadden).

[TTT-LS]

,

[War Cardinal]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

my god

[thesealocust]

edited / never mind

[bradley]

Is it just me, or don't these numbers seem all that bad? Any comparable numbers from previous years available?

Holy fucking shit. Really? The NALP directory confirms: it was absolute Armageddon, a bloodbath of epic and unfathomable proportions.

T14 students that graduate every year: Roughly 5,000

2008 (class of 2009) V10 summer associate positions: 1,362
2009 (Class of 2010) V10 summer associate positions: 1,141
2010 (Class of 2011) V10 summer associate positions: 587

Total jobs lost from V10 firms alone since 2008: 775, roughly 55% of them. Gone. Poof. No summer associate salary, no full time job. And those 775 highly qualified, predominantly T14 law students started hunting for other jobs... many of which had also been cut...

Vault 10 data based on '08, '09, and '10 summer classes (the graduating classes of 2009-2011)

Wachtell: 24 25 17
Cravath: 160 121 22
Skadden: 241 219 76
Sullivan & Cromwell: 137 104 70
Davis Polk: 129 116 80
Weil Gotshal: 169 163 36
Simpson Thacher: 142 75 71
Cleary: 108 119 85
Covington: 72 81 67
Kirkland: 180 118 63

Is the V10 all that exists? Still, 10% of T-14 grads get V10. Doesn't seem too awful to me. How entitled are you people?

[thesealocust]

edited / never mind

[ToTransferOrNot]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Mayer-Chicago went from 80-something to 11 (both numbers not including pre-clerks, I assume), so yeah.

[RisingMichigan3L]

In the event Bradley is actually serious:

I used the V10 designation because that is all I felt confident in talking about. While my memory is pretty damn good, I don't generally remember the summer associate class sizes of the entire V100 for the last several years. I wouldn't remember the V10 either, were it not for the fact that their summer class size tended to be unusually large.

But, though the use of V10 was an afterthought, it is pretty great for illustrative purposes. Since the V10 contains the highest percentage of firms that are "safe" or "doing well," it seems appropriate to conclude that with the current hiring reduction being as drastic as it is in the V10, it must be even worse for firms not doing as well. In other words, the V10 probably represents the "best case scenario"; "this is how the best firms are doing... and even they are cutting the ranks."

Finally, those 700+ persons who would have had a V10 job are now gunning for jobs that lower-ranked students at top schools typically gunned for. This shifts the food-chain a little, making those who would have scored a biglaw job at a middling big law firm in the boom times jobless in the great recession.

Edit: Don't mean at all to imply that I think the V10 represents the best firms. I'm just saying that for the sake of argument.

[RisingMichigan3L]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Mayer-Chicago went from 80-something to 11 (both numbers not including pre-clerks, I assume), so yeah.

I am shocked and appalled by how atrocious the Chicago market is. When two of the three premier Chicago firms are hurting so much, one must wonder about the state of the city's legal market and whether it's a safe place for aspiring attorneys to rest their careers on.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Mayer-Chicago went from 80-something to 11 (both numbers not including pre-clerks, I assume), so yeah.

I am shocked and appalled by how atrocious the Chicago market is. When two of the three premier Chicago firms are hurting so much, one must wonder about the state of the city's legal market and whether it's a safe place for aspiring attorneys to rest their careers on.

Er, just to point something out:

The Chicago hierarchy goes

1.) Kirkland
2.) Mayer, Sidley, Winston, Jenner

So, there are really 5, not 3. Some people insist that somehow Sidley/Jenner > Mayer = or > Winston, but that's just kind of dumb and without anything substantive to back it up.

(Edit: And no, Latham/Skadden Chicago are not really in the running, here)

[Anonymous User]

WilmerHale has somewhere between 30-40 I believe. I'll get a more accurate count tomorrow. Previous classes were over 100, according to former summer associates/partners that manage SAs. Seems to be following suit.

[d34d9823]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Mayer-Chicago went from 80-something to 11 (both numbers not including pre-clerks, I assume), so yeah.

I am shocked and appalled by how atrocious the Chicago market is. When two of the three premier Chicago firms are hurting so much, one must wonder about the state of the city's legal market and whether it's a safe place for aspiring attorneys to rest their careers on.

This goes in cycles for every non-NY/DC market though. A year ago or so, it was SF that everyone was moaning about. Two years before that...you get the picture. (Yes, I know about the economy. These trends are still there if you adjust for it.)

[RisingMichigan3L]

TToN

OK, but that doesn't help your case much. I think Winston is doing far worse than Sidley and Mayer, and Jenner is probably somewhere in between Sidley/Mayer and Kirkland.

I always just thought it was Kirkland>Sidley>Mayer>everyone else. But you probably know more.

[miamiman]

f*ck. this.

i hate to say it but i think c/o 2013 is f'd

[War Cardinal]

(Edit: And no, Latham/Skadden Chicago are not really in the running, here)

Vault begs to differ

--ImageRemoved--

[RisingMichigan3L]

This goes in cycles for every non-NY/DC market though. A year ago or so, it was SF that everyone was moaning about. Two years before that...you get the picture. (Yes, I know about the economy. These trends are still there if you adjust for it.)

I think you have your timeline off, which might weaken the "cycles" argument. People have been moaning about the bay area legal market since the dotcom bust. I think, since then, the bay area has become the most job insecure (of the major markets), the toughest to get a job in, and generally the most alluring market to get a job in. I don't think that'll change any time soon either.

There's no reason to suspect that the Chicago dowturn is cyclical. It's just the economic crisis, but some influential people seemed to think that it would be limited to NYC and that it would be hit the hardest. In reality, it probably was hit the hardest, but even then NYC still probably ended up having more jobs than Chicago. Moreover, while Chicago might have three or four "premier" firms, NYC is so huge that it has 10-12 based in NYC alone, and then all the other premier firms that are transplants. This just means there are more jobs.

Anyways, I'm digressing. But some interesting factors to think about for bidding.

[09042014]

f*ck. this.

i hate to say it but i think c/o [strike]2013[/strike] 2012 is f'd

Well 2013 too.