Military vs. Legal Education Forum

[quickquestionthanks]

I was thinking seriously about the military before I applied to law school, and now that I've put down the deposit and am staring $130,000 in loans in the face (as well as an E&E book), I'm beginning to get serious about it again.

I did some numbers and wonder what people think. I am calculating the costs of law school for myself, but I imagine for others it could be quite a bit higher. I am also using the 2010 Pay Scale Chart X 3.9% wage increase, starting with a $75k annual salary out of law school and pretty steady increase from there. The biggest caveat to all of this is the idea that there's a $75k job waiting at the end of the law school tunnel, and one that offers such generous annual raises. Plus, you'd still have to pay taxes on the COL + loan payments, so the situation is actually a bit worse after law school.

Law school outlook:
Year 1: -$41,000
Year 2: -$43,000
Year 3: -$45,000

After 3 years: -$130,000

Year 4: $75,000 - $46,000 (COL [$25k/year] + Debt payments[$1,800/month] ~ $4,000/month)
Year 5: $85,000 - $46,000
Year 6: $95,000 - $46,000
______________________
After 6 years: + $117,000 pre-tax dollars ($65,000 debt)


Military Outlook:
Year 1: $33,000
Year 2: $36,900
Year 3: $46,600

After 3 years: + $113,600 pre-tax dollars (zero debt)

Year 4: $55,800 (no debt payments + zero COL)
Year 5: $71,000
Year 6: $73,800
______________________
After 6 years: + $314,200 pre-tax dollars

(retire in 14 years with pension, work in private sector)

[yeff]

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to be in the military?

These are pretty different professions and lifestyles.

Why would such a fundamental aspect of your life be purely a financial decision?

[General Tso]

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to be in the military?

These are pretty different professions and lifestyles.

Why would such a fundamental aspect of your life be purely a financial decision?

for most people becoming a lawyer is purely a financial decision...hence the majority of lawyers who hate their lives

[JOThompson]

Why not join the armed services, do your 3-4 year stint as an officer, then use the newly improved GI Bill to pay for law school? FLEP is also an option but it's competitive.

[General Tso]

Don't you guys think it's kinda f'ed up that the military is dangling all this money in our faces where it's a better financial decision to do that than it is to become a lawyer? There's something about our country's approach to young people that I don't quite get...

[quickquestionthanks]

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to be in the military?

These are pretty different professions and lifestyles.

Why would such a fundamental aspect of your life be purely a financial decision?

There are obviously lots of factors, money being a very big one. The physicality of the military appeals to me, while the long term rewards of a legal career draw me in. In either scenario, I can see myself being happy and actualized or miserable and stuck. Ultimately, I want to have an impact on the world, whether that be through public service or executive leadership.

Why not join the armed services, do your 3-4 year stint as an officer, then use the newly improved GI Bill to pay for law school? FLEP is also an option but it's competitive.

I think if I went to the military, I'd do it as a career. I see law as a way to begin my professional career, so it's more an either/or situation. But that is an attractive option to have on the table.

[Dr. Review]

I think that your investment assessment needs to go a little further out to be effective. Treat it as a long term investment, rather than a 6 year breakdown, go out 20ish years, which is about the time you would expect military retirement. You also seem to have neglected the opportunity to gain rank in the military, which would factor into your financial assessment.

[quickquestionthanks]

I think that your investment assessment needs to go a little further out to be effective. Treat it as a long term investment, rather than a 6 year breakdown, go out 20ish years, which is about the time you would expect military retirement. You also seem to have neglected the opportunity to gain rank in the military, which would factor into your financial assessment.

I'm using the Payscale and moving through the O-1 - O-10 payscale classifications based on fastest time to promotion by law. It gets tough to project further out because it becomes increasingly less likely that you get a promotion (eventually you're talking about becoming a 1-4 star general, which is highly political in nature), and because if you keep compounding 3.9% it becomes a little nutty (my guess is they will have to tailor it back to 2.9% or something, any thoughts on that folks?). And I'm not really sure where a lawyer's salary goes after his 7th year as an attorney.

That said, my math (questionable) got me +$200,000 taxable income after 10 years out through the military.

[Cole S. Law]

Don't you guys think it's kinda f'ed up that the military is dangling all this money in our faces where it's a better financial decision to do that than it is to become a lawyer? There's something about our country's approach to young people that I don't quite get...

Hmmm. What was your grade in Econ 101? There are many considerations other than salary that go into a career decision. See also "supply and demand."

[Matthies]

I think if I went to the military, I'd do it as a career. I see law as a way to begin my professional career, so it's more an either/or situation. But that is an attractive option to have on the table.

At 21/22 life seems like it can be answered in either/or terms. It can't. You don't have to decide what you want to be when you grow up right now, nor is it likely what you decide you want to be now is really what you will be in 10-15 years. Life does not conform very well to our best laid plans for it made well ahead of time before we even know what we are getting into you. Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, go in the military if you want to be a military person. Take a few years off to work and see if there is anything else you want to do. There is no reason you can't do all of the above. I had plenty of retired military officers and NCOs in my law school class. As well as several activity duty military officers. The point is it is not an either/or situation, and thinking you have to decide now what you will be in 10-20 years is foolish because life rarely ends up going in the same direction we think it will 10 years before it actually happens.

When I was in my early 20s I was sure I had the whole world figured out, now in my 30s the only thing I am sure about from my 20s is that I had no clue what the real world was all about. I'll likely look back at my 30s in my 40s and feel the same way. Life evolves in ways we can't predict, trying to lay your life out at 22 10 years in advance is wasted energy, there are too many variables and things that come up along the way that will take you in a different direction that you cannot anticipate now. The best thing you can do is go with your gut and how you feel about life NOW, and hope, in hindsight, that leads you to a goal your happy with later.

[GIBilled]

Don't you guys think it's kinda f'ed up that the military is dangling all this money in our faces where it's a better financial decision to do that than it is to become a lawyer? There's something about our country's approach to young people that I don't quite get...

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[GIBilled]

Your pay scale is grossly underestimated. When you consider housing allowances, tax free pay, combat pay, hazard duty pay, dependent pay, etc. you are on the cusp of 80-100K by the time you reach Captain (third year Officer).

With that said, if money is a major factor in your decision to become an officer than I highly suggest you pick another field. There is no greater priveledge than leading Soldiers, but it comes with great responsibility and personal sacrifice.

[General Tso]

Don't you guys think it's kinda f'ed up that the military is dangling all this money in our faces where it's a better financial decision to do that than it is to become a lawyer? There's something about our country's approach to young people that I don't quite get...

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not. I'm not going to derail OP's thread...but you know it's something that I've considered as well, joining the national guard that is. It's not just military over law or military over business...you could substitute any field other than healthcare and military looks like an appealing option in this economy. I just think there's something messed up about that on a personal and national level....personal because to enlist we'd have to sacrifice our freedom and risk our lives just to make ends meet and on a national level because there is so much waste involved in the military budget.

And no I don't look at this as a "Proud to be an American" situation and neither do 90% of the people who enlist...they are looking at this in dollars and cents just like OP. Sorry for derailing the thread OP...Just a few random thoughts by me

[GIBilled]

Well your wrong. People enslist for a multitude of reasons, with no single one more prevalant than another. I commissioned at a time when my nation desperately needed help. I chose a personally rewarding career that challenged me in ways I never thought possible.

The pay increases started after the majority of today's military already joined to RETAIN developed talent.

[TTH]

I don't pretend to know anything about the military, but aren't people with degrees just as likely to end up as E-4s ($22,600/yr) than an O-1?

[goop92]

I think if I went to the military, I'd do it as a career. I see law as a way to begin my professional career, so it's more an either/or situation. But that is an attractive option to have on the table.

At 21/22 life seems like it can be answered in either/or terms. It can't. You don't have to decide what you want to be when you grow up right now, nor is it likely what you decide you want to be now is really what you will be in 10-15 years. Life does not conform very well to our best laid plans for it made well ahead of time before we even know what we are getting into you. Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, go in the military if you want to be a military person. Take a few years off to work and see if there is anything else you want to do. There is no reason you can't do all of the above. I had plenty of retired military officers and NCOs in my law school class. As well as several activity duty military officers. The point is it is not an either/or situation, and thinking you have to decide now what you will be in 10-20 years is foolish because life rarely ends up going in the same direction we think it will 10 years before it actually happens.

When I was in my early 20s I was sure I had the whole world figured out, now in my 30s the only thing I am sure about from my 20s is that I had no clue what the real world was all about. I'll likely look back at my 30s in my 40s and feel the same way. Life evolves in ways we can't predict, trying to lay your life out at 22 10 years in advance is wasted energy, there are too many variables and things that come up along the way that will take you in a different direction that you cannot anticipate now. The best thing you can do is go with your gut and how you feel about life NOW, and hope, in hindsight, that leads you to a goal your happy with later.

Excellent points here. You can also remain in the reserves after you transition from the military. Granted you'll be very busy so it's hard to say how "active" you'll be in your reserve unit, but they'll work something out for you where you can get your legal education and still be a part of the military. It's almost like the best of both worlds. Just something to consider.

[JOThompson]

I don't pretend to know anything about the military, but aren't people with degrees just as likely to end up as E-4s ($22,600/yr) than an O-1?

If you have a degree you can apply for OCS (or your branch equivalent) and the vast majority of candidates graduate and earn their bars. Marine OCS dropouts simply become civilians again. I don't know about the other services, but I imagine it's either become a second lieutenant or nothing.

[Cole S. Law]

I don't pretend to know anything about the military, but aren't people with degrees just as likely to end up as E-4s ($22,600/yr) than an O-1?

If you have a degree you can apply for OCS (or your branch equivalent) and the vast majority of candidates graduate and earn their bars. Marine OCS dropouts simply become civilians again. I don't know about the other services, but I imagine it's either become a second lieutenant or nothing.

Army OCS failures are given the option of enlisting. Many end up as air traffic controllers on the enlisted side.

[jchb6d]

I got out as an Army Captain after 4 years active duty. Without prior service, I don't think you're looking at $70K/yr. And, the 3.9% annual raise probably won't keep up forever.

I think the difference is that in the military, your pay is tied to the promotion schedule. 3-4 years at the lower ranks (LT, CPT, MAJ, LTC). You can be the best JAG LT/CPT in the 200+ yr history of the JAG Corps, and you would still make the same as the guy sharing your office who only shows up from 9-4. On the other hand, outside, you're (theoretically) limited only by your ability and work ethic (with caveats for the current economy, etc.).

I also don't know the promotion rate for the JAG Corps. They're outside the normal promotion process. Still a process, just different, you'll have the find the details yourself. I would think that anyone who talks about how he knew someone who knew someone who made Colonel as a JAG isn't taking into account the hundreds/thousands of JAG LTs who left the service for one reason or another. What makes you think you'll be the one to stick it out for 20 years, when a solid majority of LTs all think the same thing, but then leave for a multitude of reasons? It's like people starting law school counting on being the top 10% of their class, when 95% of their classmates are counting on the same thing.

If you ever want a family, you're basically out-of-luck for the next few years because you're looking at deployments on alternating years.

If you ever want a social life, you're also out of luck. JAGs are not really treated as "real officers", just like Army docs and chaplains aren't. You have the rank, but you don't have much interaction with other officers. You will most likely work at the post JAG office, working only with other JAGs. At a big post, you might have 20-30 peers whom you could socialize with, but you have to assume most of them will be married.

As for the part about the "physicality" of the armed forces, you won't see any of that as a JAG. In the states, you'll basically have an office job. Deployed, you'll have an office job where you have to wear your armor to and from work. If a workout is what you're after, you're better off biking to work, civilian or JAG.

I actually worked with a few JAGs for administrative and legal actions, and all of them were basically just in the program to pay off school loans, get some experience, and then jumping ship.

Don't get me wrong, there are some fine, dedicated JAG officers who really care about service to country, etc., etc. But there are also civilian lawyers contracted by the DoD to augment the JAG Corps. "Service to country" either way. I guess there's something to be said about putting on the uniform.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time in, met some great people, had some unique experiences, and like to think I'm a better person for all that, but I'd just caution anyone from joining the JAG Corps out of a sense of duty. If you want to defend our nation from "all enemies foreign and domestic", hold off on law school and become a regular officer, leading troops. Do your time, get your fill, and then you'll have the GI Bill to make law school that much less stressful.

I'm also not interested in getting involved in some kind of "proud to be an American" debate. Just putting in my two cents FWIW.

If you want to know the details about workload and pay and such, the Military Law thread seemed pretty informative when I browsed through it. But there's a lot more to life as an officer, JAG or not, besides the pay scale and promotion schedule.

[TonyDigital]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not. I'm not going to derail OP's thread...but you know it's something that I've considered as well, joining the national guard that is. It's not just military over law or military over business...you could substitute any field other than healthcare and military looks like an appealing option in this economy. I just think there's something messed up about that on a personal and national level....personal because to enlist we'd have to sacrifice our freedom and risk our lives just to make ends meet and on a national level because there is so much waste involved in the military budget.

And no I don't look at this as a "Proud to be an American" situation and neither do 90% of the people who enlist...they are looking at this in dollars and cents just like OP. Sorry for derailing the thread OP...Just a few random thoughts by me

What point are you actually trying to make? That the military/gov't/country should be ashamed of itself for trying to pay the troops a competitive wage? That military service is wrong on a personal level because some freedoms are sacrificed for the job? And that the pay (which I guess you're saying is high pay) should be classified as "waste"?

[jchoggan]

I'm a captain in the Air Force, going to GULC part time. You can do both. I'm taking advantage of the GI bill as of June of this year, which takes care of 100% of tuition and fees with no added commitment. It's a great program, and you can figure out what you want to do with it afterward.

General Tso - before you make the argument that the military is "dangling money" in front of kids and wasting taxpayer dollars in the process, check your facts... the new GI bill is fully funded by previous veterans who paid into the Montgomery GI bill and never used it. Congress is just trying to get soldiers to use their own college savings fund, essentially. I will admit that the military does everything it can (often shamelessly) to entice kids in and keep them in (and much of this incentive is monetary... i mean, where else can you retire at 38?), but otherwise we would have to go back to the draft, and nobody wants that. (done w/ my hijack... sorry)

Back to OP - the 'physicality' you speak of is almost nonexistant in most of the military (especially JAG). I watched a bunch of officers from all branches walk their PT test the other day... it's kinda sad. Unless you go special ops or infantry, you'll only be required to be slightly more active than a slug.

[General Tso]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not. I'm not going to derail OP's thread...but you know it's something that I've considered as well, joining the national guard that is. It's not just military over law or military over business...you could substitute any field other than healthcare and military looks like an appealing option in this economy. I just think there's something messed up about that on a personal and national level....personal because to enlist we'd have to sacrifice our freedom and risk our lives just to make ends meet and on a national level because there is so much waste involved in the military budget.

And no I don't look at this as a "Proud to be an American" situation and neither do 90% of the people who enlist...they are looking at this in dollars and cents just like OP. Sorry for derailing the thread OP...Just a few random thoughts by me

What point are you actually trying to make? That the military/gov't/country should be ashamed of itself for trying to pay the troops a competitive wage? That military service is wrong on a personal level because some freedoms are sacrificed for the job? And that the pay (which I guess you're saying is high pay) should be classified as "waste"?

It's not that...regarding "waste," I don't understand why we have so many troops in the first place. They basically take anyone that walks in the door, and with all the hoopla around the government budget deficits I don't really understand why that is. Do we need 1.5m troops to fight today's struggles with small terror cells? I'm not so sure...

I have wide ranging beliefs on what is wrong with American society's treatment of young people. Now there's lots of reasons not to want to emulate Russia, but my g/f is Russian so I will speak a little about their approach to young people. College there is free or cheap, but it's really competitive to get accepted to a good one. But basically it's a merit system, if you are smart you get the education you want. If you aren't smart enough to earn your way into a prime university seat, the system channels you into another route -- vocational/technical school. This way you can still have a "middle class" (by russian standards anyway) lifestyle and a good job. If you don't perform well enough on the exams to enter a technical school, then you are looking at military service. Now granted, that means you end up with the weakest members of society serving in the military, but for me that's not such a big problem because I agree with the founding fathers approach (and the approach of this country up until 1939) that we don't need a huge standing army. Russia by the way, has about 50% fewer active troops than America. If a crisis erupts, the more educated segments of the society will suit up just like in WW2. And it's not like I am talking about closing down West Point--you would still have the educated leadership you need.

I just think this system is more efficient...it channels people into gainful career paths without racking them with student debt. I really think that our current military recruitment system is one reason why the government is uninterested in addressing the exponentially increasing tuition hikes. They learned that during the Vietnam era (my mom was a student at a major SEC school at the time...her tuition was $200 a semester) a cheap university is an attractive escape from military service. The solution? Classic carrot and stick - dangle the GI Bill tuition benefits (carrot) while letting tuition at the universities explode (stick) --> now you get willing military service without needing to resort to the unpopular draft

[GIBilled]

It's not that...regarding "waste," I don't understand why we have so many troops in the first place.

Because we are at war.

They basically take anyone that walks in the door, and with all the hoopla around the government budget deficits I don't really understand why that is. Do we need 1.5m troops to fight today's struggles with small terror cells? I'm not so sure...

The military (the Army in particular) went thru a very difficult phase during the troop surge in 06. This is because the entire Army was reorganizing to Brigade Combat Teams (BCT) and fighting wars on two fronts. Were Soldiers or questionable character recruited? Absolutely. Are we paying for it now? Yes. With that said, BCTs are meeting strength requirements while the economy simultaneously falters. What does this mean? A drastically higher quality of Soldier is entering today's military. There is a 6 month waiting list at some recruitment/processing centers and the parameters for selection are much more stringent.

I have wide ranging beliefs on what is wrong with American society's treatment of young people.

Selfishness, laziness...lack of initiative.....


If you are so fond of Russia, perhaps you should relocate with your girlfriend. What you are describing goes against the foundation of what this country was built on. Equal opportunity for all. What you do with that opportunity is your own perogative.

[GIBilled]

jchb6d -

Thanks for your comments and service. I didn't get the impression that the OP was pursuing JAG. This was more of a "Should I join the military or go to LS" thread.

I make close to 70K a year stationed in Hawaii. While in Iraq it was closer to 100K. I agree with your description of Military JAG. I would not recommend it as a career path either. Their primary function down range was to ensure the legality of micro grants and small business loans. Not my cup of tea, especially with court room proceedings few and far between.

If anyone has additional questions about the military, OCS, GI Bill, Combat Arms, etc. feel free to PM me. I would be happy help.

[General Tso]

Selfishness, laziness...lack of initiative.....

If you are so fond of Russia, perhaps you should relocate with your girlfriend. What you are describing goes against the foundation of what this country was built on. Equal opportunity for all. What you do with that opportunity is your own perogative.

Brilliant retort. I would never move to Russia but the idea of relocating to western Europe or Canada is very appealing to me. But since you think it is so easy for us "unpatriotic" people to relocate, let me ask you: have you ever looked into any emigration procedures? For Canadian "green card" you need to either be among a "highly skilled profession" like engineer, doctor, nurse, etc. (and I am none of those things) OR you have to make a one time $400,000 investment in Canada (whatever that means). For France and much of the EU it's even harder. To "buy" a green card, France requires that you be in charge of something like $30m euro investment, of which 1/3 of it has to be from your own bank account.

Of course you can go the traditional route -- work visa --> green card --> citizenship, but the odds are way against you. First to get a work visa, your European employer has to show that no EU citizen was qualified for this job. Then beyond that, the odds of being selected for permanent residency are probably in the 10-20% range.

So I encourage you to think about the practicalities of your suggestion before you suggest a fellow American with whom you disagree "relocate."

It doesn't have anything to do with equal access or freedom of opportunity. Why should the federal government be financing and guaranteeing the loans on worthless English degrees? If a person has an interest in a meaningless, unemployable field of study they should be able to pursue it without incurring any significant amount of debt and without leaching off of the taxpayers. I dunno, get a library card or something. Our community college system has great potential which it isn't fulfilling because most of the people there are planning to transfer up to get their federally financed Fashion Design Management degrees. All I am saying is there are massive inefficiencies all over hurting both the country and its young people in particular. That spans from the poorly invested federal loan programs to the massively overfunded, overpeopled military.