V25 hiring director: non-T20 hiring to decline permanently Forum

[itsmytime10]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

aa..couldn't have said it any better...you are far too kind.

[romothesavior]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

aa..couldn't have said it any better...you are far too kind.

Hopefully I don't have to put up with you at WUSTL next fall...

[itsmytime10]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

aa..couldn't have said it any better...you are far too kind.

Judging by your posting history, you're a jerk all time time. Definitely hoping you don't get off the WL at WUSTL.

actually i am not...i was actually having a discussion with DesertF when you decided to make silly comments...sorry i withdrew from WashU...Vandy came thru with a nice $$ today..

[Grizz]

actually i am not...i was actually having a discussion with DesertF when you decided to make silly comments...sorry i withdrew from WashU...Vandy came thru with a nice $$ today..

See you next year I guess.

[itsmytime10]

actually i am not...i was actually having a discussion with DesertF when you decided to make silly comments...sorry i withdrew from WashU...Vandy came thru with a nice $$ today..

See you next year I guess.

look at my posting history and you can see that i am no jerk....and then go back and look at this thread and you can see that i was actually trying to have a good discussion when the attacks started.

[Stringer Bell]

Seriously... how f*cked are we? I am as depressed and pessimistic now as I have been throughout this entire cycle (not because of this article... just a lot of shit building up). I feel like I am walking into a minefield.

I went through the same thing a few months ago. Waterman is right. You just need to understand what you are getting into and evaluate the risk/reward trade offs realistically. IBR isn't a great safety net, but it is a safety net nonetheless. That's what makes the decision to attend LS reasonable for me. I'm leaving a pretty good job, but I don't feel like I'm giving up tons of job security to pursue this. One of the only decent career paths right now that is fairly risk free and doesn't cost a ton to obtain is a degree in nursing.

[romothesavior]

So I missed a lot of this thread, but it is of interest to me. Did people ever come to a conclusion about whether T20 means T17/18 or goes all the way down to an Emory-ish area?

I don't think we arrived at any sort of conclusion on this question. Some people seem to think T10 only means T17/18, while others seem to think it includes Minnesota, ND, UIUC, Emory, etc.

I view it more as a sliding scale. The lower you go down the list, the less-likely it is for a firm to fly a long distance to your campus. I don't think a Chicago firm is going to say, "We are only flying to the T20 this year, so we will go to USC and UCLA, but not to Illinois... they are so TTT!" However, I would imagine some of these 20-30 schools will lose firms from outside of their traditional region (and obviously they have already).

So IMO, there is no hard and fast line for where you are safe and where you are at risk. But others probably disagree.

And @itsmytime... perhaps I was a little harsh with you, but you have exhibited two traits I hate in TLS posters: 1) overconfidence bordering on cockiness, and 2) the opinion that just because you are a few years older and you worked in computer programming (seriously WTF is that going to help you on LS exams?), you are therefore more enlightened and better than us undergrad people.

So maybe I shouldn't have lashed out at you, but please recognize that your attitude is off-putting.

[itsmytime10]

So I missed a lot of this thread, but it is of interest to me. Did people ever come to a conclusion about whether T20 means T17/18 or goes all the way down to an Emory-ish area?

I don't think we arrived at any sort of conclusion on this question. Some people seem to think T10 only means T17/18, while others seem to think it includes Minnesota, ND, UIUC, Emory, etc.

I view it more as a sliding scale. The lower you go down the list, the less-likely it is for a firm to fly a long distance to your campus. I don't think a Chicago firm is going to say, "We are only flying to the T20 this year, so we will go to USC and UCLA, but not to Illinois... they are so TTT!" However, I would imagine some of these 20-30 schools will lose firms from outside of their traditional region (and obviously they have already).

So IMO, there is no hard and fast line for where you are safe and where you are at risk. But others probably disagree.

And @itsmytime... perhaps I was a little harsh with you, but you have exhibited two traits I hate in TLS posters: 1) overconfidence bordering on cockiness, and 2) the opinion that just because you are a few years older and you worked in computer programming (seriously WTF is that going to help you on LS exams?), you are therefore more enlightened and better than us undergrad people.

So maybe I shouldn't have lashed out at you, but please recognize that your attitude is off-putting.

Hey maybe you being harsh with me and the constant post about T14 or bust is what made me come off that way..For that i apologize...I agree i might have sounded a little cocky but i am just sick of reading post by T14 students who think everyone else is screwed.

[thuggishruggishbone]

lol. Funny.

realistic, as in...you will settle for the 60k job...i just hope u dont owe 200k too. me..it is 160k or nada

Well at least you'll have that JD degree hanging on the wall in 4 years when you're back designing software. Totally worth 3 years of lost wages plus the money school will cost you imo.

Definitely better than 200k+ in debt and making 50k.

50K? I thought the going rate for shitlaw was 30K with zero benefits.

[Sepa299]

If one believes that a senior partner at a major law firm has gone through hell and back (and if they're a senior partner, they've been through at least two recessions), then I think their new hiring practice is probably going to run something like this from now on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQHfoz9Be7U

[vickers711]

Sigh.

Factors in relative order that bear on getting a 2L SA at a market paying firm:

1) The school you attend
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2) The Grades you achieved at that school, your racial status (bump for URMs)
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(this space for rent)
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(* crickets chirping* )
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3) Substantial and/or relevant work experience, substantial legal softs (prestigious 1L gig, etc)
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4) Undergrad, clubs, etc.

You forgot to add at the top of the list: who you know.

[PDaddy]

I can tell you this: the firms will still be recruiting at Howard!

[270910]

You forgot to add at the top of the list: who you know.

Maybe for 1L summer hiring, but you're not sneaking into a firm without strong credentials just because you know somebody.

[T14_Scholly]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

You don't think it has any benefit (even if it's not critical as regards legal hiring)?

[270910]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

You don't think it has any benefit (even if it's not critical as regards legal hiring)?

Work experience definitely helps with legal hiring. It's not required and it's not a silver bullet, but it helps. Chiefly because it implies maturity and a reduced risk of being an entitled twat with unrealistic expectations.

[miamiman]

Satisfaction is waking up and reading the inevitable TLS gold I miss whenever I (foolishly) decide to go to sleep.

[T14_Scholly]

just great...another smart kid who is not paying sticker.

Just great... another guy a few years outta college who thinks his years in the "real world" makes him more enlightened than us moron undergrads.

You don't think it has any benefit (even if it's not critical as regards legal hiring)?

Work experience definitely helps with legal hiring. It's not required and it's not a silver bullet, but it helps. Chiefly because it implies maturity and a reduced risk of being an entitled twat with unrealistic expectations.

I agree.

[TTT-LS]

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[wiseowl]

I wish I had never started this godforsaken thread.

Also: the new graphic/banner at the top of the site is U-G-L-Y.

i like it. you're just mad because now your tar is obsolete.

[JCougar]

ITT: Nervous law students take one off-the-cuff anecdote from a random Biglaw partner to represent scientific evidence as to a sea change in how all law firms will now think and behave for the rest of time.

20 bucks says this guy just pulled "top 20" out of his ass, and even for his own purposes, he may as well have said T30 or T14 or "whatever regional schools are convenient." 20 more bucks says if you asked 10 different biglaw partners where their new interview cutoffs are, you'd get 11 different answers.

[d34d9823]

You don't think it has any benefit (even if it's not critical as regards legal hiring)?

Work experience definitely helps with legal hiring. It's not required and it's not a silver bullet, but it helps. Chiefly because it implies maturity and a reduced risk of being an entitled twat with unrealistic expectations.

I agree.

We all agree. It was the claim that it was on the level of the difference between NU and WUSTL that set off the lolfest.

[Anonymous User]

The recruiting director is a she, not a he: Helen Long from Ropes & Gray.

Not sure why she said T20, considering R&G hires pretty equally from BU and BC.

She also said that the best and brightest deferred associates may never come back.

I am a deferred associate from R&G on a public interest fellowship. After I finish, they still won't let me start at the firm for another 2 months. If I start shopping around for other firms (I know at least one that would want me on board), does that make me the best and brightest?

[T14_Scholly]

ITT: Nervous law students take one off-the-cuff anecdote from a random Biglaw partner to represent scientific evidence as to a sea change in how all law firms will now think and behave for the rest of time.

20 bucks says this guy just pulled "top 20" out of his ass, and even for his own purposes, he may as well have said T30 or T14 or "whatever regional schools are convenient." 20 more bucks says if you asked 10 different biglaw partners where their new interview cutoffs are, you'd get 11 different answers.

Very true.

[dakatz]

The recruiting director is a she, not a he: Helen Long from Ropes & Gray.

Not sure why she said T20, considering R&G hires pretty equally from BU and BC.

She also said that the best and brightest deferred associates may never come back.

I am a deferred associate from R&G on a public interest fellowship. After I finish, they still won't let me start at the firm for another 2 months. If I start shopping around for other firms (I know at least one that would want me on board), does that make me the best and brightest?

I think she meant the "T20" comment in a more general sense. Obviously the big firms will still interview the top regional schools of their markets. For example, NY firms will still hire Fordham grads as a decent rate, just like Boston firms will of course go to BU and BC. I think they meant that, on a more national level, schools won't go out of their way to sub-T20 schools well outside of the region.

[AngryAvocado]

ITT: Nervous law students take one off-the-cuff anecdote from a random Biglaw partner to represent scientific evidence as to a sea change in how all law firms will now think and behave for the rest of time.

20 bucks says this guy just pulled "top 20" out of his ass, and even for his own purposes, he may as well have said T30 or T14 or "whatever regional schools are convenient." 20 more bucks says if you asked 10 different biglaw partners where their new interview cutoffs are, you'd get 11 different answers.

It's more the fact that this hiring partner is coming out and stating what we already suspected would be true: some firms aren't going to bother recruiting from the 20s or 30s anymore when there's a sea of kids with decent grades at higher ranked schools looking for jobs. Firms can afford to be more selective because the supply of top talent exceeds the demand more so than it has in recent years, and likely for the foreseeable future. Hardly shocking, but interesting that a hiring partner is coming out and explicitly saying it nonetheless.