What kind of grades do you need to get a nonshitlaw job? Forum

[JJCalderon]

At a first tier law school (non top 14). And is the difference between first tier and second tier minimal or great when it comes to job search (of course, 1st and 3rd and 4th is big difference).

[MrKappus]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

(Edit: These are to get interviews...since I'm a 1L, I don't know what the hiring patterns look like.)

[RVP11]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

[Anonymous User]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

Not talking about biglaw specifically, anything that's decent and NOT shitlaw (doc review) - 40 k and above.

[RVP11]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

Not talking about biglaw specifically, anything that's decent and NOT shitlaw (doc review) - 40 k and above.

You cited the NLJ250 cutoff and firms "just outside the 250." This seems pretty disconnected from "not shitlaw."

[JJCalderon]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

Not talking about biglaw specifically, anything that's decent and NOT shitlaw (doc review) - 40 k and above.

You cited the NLJ250 cutoff and firms "just outside the 250." This seems pretty disconnected from "not shitlaw."

No, that was someone else.

[rando]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

I think that is a rather accurate picture of cutoff at Emory. That being said, 25% is not even close to a guarantee.

The differences between biglaw and midlaw aren't really that great. Often it is harder to get into midlaw because they don't recruit as actively and don't have a formal summer associate class etc. It is a lot harder to estimate.

[JJCalderon]

The cutoff for NLJ250 firms at my law school seems to be top 25%. The elites require 10-15%, and the firms just outside the 250 are ok w/ top third. (I'm also at a non-T14 Tier 1.)

Either you're at UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC or you're talking about pre-ITE.

I think that is a rather accurate picture of cutoff at Emory. That being said, 25% is not even close to a guarantee.

The differences between biglaw and midlaw aren't really that great. Often it is harder to get into midlaw because they don't recruit as actively and don't have a formal summer associate class etc. It is a lot harder to estimate.

So what percentage of law students in general, would you say (1st through 4th tier) get non-shit law jobs?

[270910]

So what percentage of law students in general, would you say (1st through 4th tier) get non-shit law jobs?

HYS: 90%+
T14: Pre-ITE 75%+, ITE I'd say still over 50% but just barely - and a lot less biglaw and a lot more federal work, clerkships, etc. to avoid 'shit law'
T25: 30-60%
T50: ~25%?
T100: ~15?
TTT: ~10%?
4th tier: <= 5%?

Shit law is only shit law, by the way, if you wanted/expected big law. Nothing in the world wrong with being a plaintiff's attorney, small town attorney, public defender, working with local/state legislatures/judges, etc. It's a fine career enjoyed by many. The big problem is: are 3 years of your life + massive debt worth it for those jobs? It's just a little unfair to call it shitlaw...

[Mr. Matlock]

At a first tier law school (non top 14). And is the difference between first tier and second tier minimal or great when it comes to job search (of course, 1st and 3rd and 4th is big difference).

Do you mean SHIT-LAW as in sitting behind a desk all day, pushing papers, slowly losing your soul by shitting on the little guy? That shit-law?

[JJCalderon]

At a first tier law school (non top 14). And is the difference between first tier and second tier minimal or great when it comes to job search (of course, 1st and 3rd and 4th is big difference).

Do you mean SHIT-LAW as in sitting behind a desk all day, pushing papers, slowly losing your soul by shitting on the little guy? That shit-law?

Sorry, I clarified what I meant by shit law earlier on in the post, but I'll repeat again. By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

Public defender/DA/small law attorney positions are not considered shitlaw generally.

With that in mind, how would you project the stats?

[Mr. Matlock]

At a first tier law school (non top 14). And is the difference between first tier and second tier minimal or great when it comes to job search (of course, 1st and 3rd and 4th is big difference).

Do you mean SHIT-LAW as in sitting behind a desk all day, pushing papers, slowly losing your soul by shitting on the little guy? That shit-law?

Sorry, I clarified what I meant by shit law earlier on in the post, but I'll repeat again. By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

Public defender/DA/small law attorney positions are not considered shitlaw generally.

With that in mind, how would you project the stats?

I was just fucking with you. To many, shit-law is anything outside the V-10. I think for what you're looking at, the stats above seem to be about right.... but this current year may end up bringing even those projections down.

[XxSpyKEx]

This is such a ridiculous proposition. It assumes, as USNews does, that all schools are national. They aren't, and the ranking are completely worthless outside of the top 14 (or maybe top 30) schools. E.g. if you attend Hofstra (a t2 according to USNews) your odds at non-shitlaw or any legal job at all are probably close to 0 just because that school is that bad and the region is that saturated. However, if you attend a t3/t4 in some state where it is the best school in the state, then your odds of finding something non-shitlaw are better...

Given your anonymity already with your whole 9 posts (you can't possibly have said enough to identify you personally and potentially damage your career with so few posts), you might as well just tell us where you go and then create a new username later if you ever decide to post on TLS again.

[XxSpyKEx]

So what percentage of law students in general, would you say (1st through 4th tier) get non-shit law jobs?

HYS: 90%+
T14: Pre-ITE 75%+, ITE I'd say still over 50% but just barely - and a lot less biglaw and a lot more federal work, clerkships, etc. to avoid 'shit law'
T25: 30-60%
T50: ~25%?
T100: ~15?
TTT: ~10%?
4th tier: <= 5%?

Shit law is only shit law, by the way, if you wanted/expected big law. Nothing in the world wrong with being a plaintiff's attorney, small town attorney, public defender, working with local/state legislatures/judges, etc. It's a fine career enjoyed by many. The big problem is: are 3 years of your life + massive debt worth it for those jobs? It's just a little unfair to call it shitlaw...

I don't think it's that bad for non-shitlaw jobs at top schools (unless you're referring to everything outside of the NLJ250 as shitlaw). I can't even begin to envision anyone at HYS going into shitlaw. Definitely not 50% of t14 is going into shitlaw.

[RVP11]

T14: Pre-ITE 75%+

It was way better than even this pre-ITE. Try 90% or even higher with BigLaw/MidLaw/clerkship or PI/government job someone actually wanted.

[redsox]

By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

That's $120,000/year.

[redsox]

(with weekends off and two weeks unpaid vacation)

[djgoldbe]

By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

That's $120,000/year.

That's also 80 hours a week, no benefits, and a horribly non-stimulating job.

[SteelReserve]

Sorry, I clarified what I meant by shit law earlier on in the post, but I'll repeat again. By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

Can anyone provide examples of these sorts of jobs that are common?
EDIT: Oh yes, doc review, but I am assuming you meant more traditional legal jobs like personal injury, crim defense, etc.
Most of the 'shit-law' as you say doesn't pay well at the outset, but it's a much better fit for many people because it involves courtroom appearances/trials, client interaction, deposition taking/defense, travelling outside the office, etc. Even less litigious aspects of small-firm life such as trusts and estates, tax work, etc, involves substantial client interaction and less computer time and writing than biglaw.

Biglaw pays great but that is where you see the 10 hour days in front of the computer with no client interaction or courtroom experience. If you've done OCI callbacks, you can see that for yourself. It's all research and writing, usually on a single issue in the case.

And finally as to cut-offs, I can speak from experience to say a 50-100 used to be around top 15% had a decent show, but ITE it's about 5%. And most of that includes midlaw.

[ggocat]

By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

That's $120,000/year.

That's also 80 hours a week[strike], no benefits,[/strike] and a horribly non-stimulating job.

Welcome to biglaw?

[Leeroy Jenkins]

By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

That's $120,000/year.

Actually it's like 160k, bc of overtime.

[Bert]

Welcome to biglaw?

You beat me to the post.

[redsox]

By shitlaw I mean getting paid 30 bucks an hour, getting no health insurance, and sitting in front of a computer for 16 hours a day doing document review while working in slave-like conditions.

That's $120,000/year.

Actually it's like 160k, bc of overtime.

I was assuming that the firm was clever enough to avoid paying overtime/the 30 per hour was an average.