There are jobs out there for grads of TOP law schools Forum

[keg411]

"The JDU trolls are basically people that graduated near the bottom of their classes at very expensive lower ranked schools and actually expected to be earning a guaranteed 6 figure salary upon graduation."

This is BS. I graduated top 20% of a tier 1 (not top 14) ten years ago and am still making only 60K a year in a very expensive region. I know I am lucky to have any job at all, but I'm looking to quit because it barely pays for day care for my son.

I feel very sorry for you. At least when I signed up for law school in 1997, the word was not yet out about what a scam law school is, so at least I don't have to feel like a total idiot for getting myself into this situation. You, on the other hand, will have no one to blame for yourself for being a sucker and a tool. You've been warned.

Wouldn't this indicate you're a pretty bad lawyer if you couldn't increase your pay to much over entry level in 10 years?! You're at the point in your career where your school and graduating in the Top 20% doesn't matter anymore.

And Long Island .

[ToTransferOrNot]

"The JDU trolls are basically people that graduated near the bottom of their classes at very expensive lower ranked schools and actually expected to be earning a guaranteed 6 figure salary upon graduation."

This is BS. I graduated top 20% of a tier 1 (not top 14) ten years ago and am still making only 60K a year in a very expensive region. I know I am lucky to have any job at all, but I'm looking to quit because it barely pays for day care for my son.

I feel very sorry for you. At least when I signed up for law school in 1997, the word was not yet out about what a scam law school is, so at least I don't have to feel like a total idiot for getting myself into this situation. You, on the other hand, will have no one to blame for yourself for being a sucker and a tool. You've been warned.

Wouldn't this indicate you're a pretty bad lawyer if you couldn't increase your pay to much over entry level in 10 years?! You're at the point in your career where your school and graduating in the Top 20% doesn't matter anymore.

And Long Island .

Dear person who needs a dose of reality:

A.) A very, very large number of lawyers start at far lower than $60k a year. Sorry to burst your bubble.
B.) Pay raise potential is extremely limited in the very small firms, good lawyer or not.
C.) One's skill as a lawyer is irrelevant at some of the really small firms, given the kind of work that they do. Doesn't provide an opportunity to train or distinguish your ability.


That said, obviously the moron you quoted did not actually buy a house in NYC on $40-60k a year. Just didn't happe.

[ranovr32]

"The JDU trolls are basically people that graduated near the bottom of their classes at very expensive lower ranked schools and actually expected to be earning a guaranteed 6 figure salary upon graduation."

This is BS. I graduated top 20% of a tier 1 (not top 14) ten years ago and am still making only 60K a year in a very expensive region. I know I am lucky to have any job at all, but I'm looking to quit because it barely pays for day care for my son.

I feel very sorry for you. At least when I signed up for law school in 1997, the word was not yet out about what a scam law school is, so at least I don't have to feel like a total idiot for getting myself into this situation. You, on the other hand, will have no one to blame for yourself for being a sucker and a tool. You've been warned.

Wouldn't this indicate you're a pretty bad lawyer if you couldn't increase your pay to much over entry level in 10 years?! You're at the point in your career where your school and graduating in the Top 20% doesn't matter anymore.

And Long Island .

Dear person who needs a dose of reality:

A.) A very, very large number of lawyers start at far lower than $60k a year. Sorry to burst your bubble.
B.) Pay raise potential is extremely limited in the very small firms, good lawyer or not.
C.) One's skill as a lawyer is irrelevant at some of the really small firms, given the kind of work that they do. Doesn't provide an opportunity to train or distinguish your ability.


That said, obviously the moron you quoted did not actually buy a house in NYC on $40-60k a year. Just didn't happe.

If you work at Walmart, Target, or KMart for 10 years you will make more then 60k. That is assuming you have a bachelors. What kind of JD leaves you with a less than 60k a year income after 10 years? Or what kind of firm? Either way, it isn't very likely that someone graduating from a top 30 school will be making 60k after working 10 years.

[ToTransferOrNot]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

[A'nold]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

But c'mon man, top 20% at a t30 school 10 YEARS OUT making 60k in NYC? Even an extreme pessimist cannot believe that this person is at all good at what they do or that they are a real person. It is a JDU poster.

[ToTransferOrNot]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

But c'mon man, top 20% at a t30 school 10 YEARS OUT making 60k in NYC? Even an extreme pessimist cannot believe that this person is at all good at what they do or that they are a real person. It is a JDU poster.

With respect, I know a person or two on JDU, though they don't post too often. These horror stories might not be fully representative, but they aren't entirely inaccurate, either. People don't see to understand just how limited upward mobility can be in this profession if you miss the biglaw boat and don't have the business (notice, not legal) acumen to start your own firm. There really isn't much but table scraps left at that point.

[A'nold]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

But c'mon man, top 20% at a t30 school 10 YEARS OUT making 60k in NYC? Even an extreme pessimist cannot believe that this person is at all good at what they do or that they are a real person. It is a JDU poster.

With respect, I know a person or two on JDU, though they don't post too often. These horror stories might not be fully representative, but they aren't entirely inaccurate, either. People don't see to understand just how limited upward mobility can be in this profession if you miss the biglaw boat and don't have the business (notice, not legal) acumen to start your own firm. There really isn't much but table scraps left at that point.

I hear you on that, and many people would be astonished to know that 10 years just anywhere might not lead them to 6 digits, but it's kind of like the flip side of the coin. Just like you said, it probably isn't fully representative though maybe not extremely rare. This is sort of like the whole "if you are top 5% at Loyola, you can get biglaw, but it isn't likely" cliche in reverse.
I know ITE sucks big time, but I think we are all a little too pesimistic. It's safer to set your expectations low, but this poster was either a liar or lucky to have a job b/c he/she is completely incompetent.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Well, we already established that they were lying, based on the house-buying claim. It was an opportunity to make a different point, though.

[A'nold]

Well, we already established that they were lying, based on the house-buying claim. It was an opportunity to make a different point, though.

Yeah, and the point is pretty much valid.

[UnbornWidow]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

But c'mon man, top 20% at a t30 school 10 YEARS OUT making 60k in NYC? Even an extreme pessimist cannot believe that this person is at all good at what they do or that they are a real person. It is a JDU poster.

With respect, I know a person or two on JDU, though they don't post too often. These horror stories might not be fully representative, but they aren't entirely inaccurate, either. People don't see to understand just how limited upward mobility can be in this profession if you miss the biglaw boat and don't have the business (notice, not legal) acumen to start your own firm. There really isn't much but table scraps left at that point.

Look, there is a lot more to it than just "business acumen." There is an old saying in law that addresses the fact that CIRCUMSTANCES are extremely important in each case and that these circumstances are not changeable: "Good facts make good lawyers." It means that the facts of the case are the most important factor in determining which side will win. And no matter how good a lawyer you are, those facts are not going to change.

This general idea is also applicable to the question of whether a law school grad with no biglaw job can succeed. This "business acumen" mantra that you invoke is a very simplistic and inaccurate take on things. The most important factors in success in the success of a new law school grad with no biglaw job offer are factors that are BEYOND THE CONTROL of that law school grad. Factors like circumstances--how attractive and personable that grad is. How they look in a suit. And most importantly, where they live and where their extended family and friends live. If your extended family lives in an area near law schools that crank out hundreds of new law school grads annually, then NOTHING is going to help.


Oh, you say, they just need to move to where the lawyers aren't. Got news for ya, pumpkin--aint no such place. Law has actually been saturated for decades. Everywhere in America.

The law schools have been lying about the success of their graduates for many many decades. Yeah, you can even find a book written approximately 80 years ago that says just that.

And here's another thing for you: with no biglaw job, most law school grads have to depend on their extended family and friends for referrals. You see, advertising in law doesn't really work. Not for situations where the client has to put up a substantial retainer.

Anyway, I am sure with all your worldly experience that you have, you know better.

[Cole S. Law]

I'm going to post an add on DC Craigslist offering 300K for an entry level attorney who graduated top 90% at any ABA school. Then I will go on JDU to crow about how awesome the legal market is. They do it so often that it must be orgasmic.

[A'nold]

And you're pulling this "very unlikely" bit from where?

You may have noticed, but there are far more lawyers than there are positions--both on the low and high end of the field. Or maybe you haven't noticed, and are simply another 0L spewing an opinion that is completely uninformed by the realities on the ground. People who are lucky enough to have a job in the first instance aren't in any position to be arguing about things like wages. 40k/year > no job.

But c'mon man, top 20% at a t30 school 10 YEARS OUT making 60k in NYC? Even an extreme pessimist cannot believe that this person is at all good at what they do or that they are a real person. It is a JDU poster.

With respect, I know a person or two on JDU, though they don't post too often. These horror stories might not be fully representative, but they aren't entirely inaccurate, either. People don't see to understand just how limited upward mobility can be in this profession if you miss the biglaw boat and don't have the business (notice, not legal) acumen to start your own firm. There really isn't much but table scraps left at that point.

Look, there is a lot more to it than just "business acumen." There is an old saying in law that addresses the fact that CIRCUMSTANCES are extremely important in each case and that these circumstances are not changeable: "Good facts make good lawyers." It means that the facts of the case are the most important factor in determining which side will win. And no matter how good a lawyer you are, those facts are not going to change.

This general idea is also applicable to the question of whether a law school grad with no biglaw job can succeed. This "business acumen" mantra that you invoke is a very simplistic and inaccurate take on things. The most important factors in success in the success of a new law school grad with no biglaw job offer are factors that are BEYOND THE CONTROL of that law school grad. Factors like circumstances--how attractive and personable that grad is. How they look in a suit. And most importantly, where they live and where their extended family and friends live. If your extended family lives in an area near law schools that crank out hundreds of new law school grads annually, then NOTHING is going to help.


Oh, you say, they just need to move to where the lawyers aren't. Got news for ya, pumpkin--aint no such place. Law has actually been saturated for decades. Everywhere in America.

The law schools have been lying about the success of their graduates for many many decades. Yeah, you can even find a book written approximately 80 years ago that says just that.

And here's another thing for you: with no biglaw job, most law school grads have to depend on their extended family and friends for referrals. You see, advertising in law doesn't really work. Not for situations where the client has to put up a substantial retainer.

Anyway, I am sure with all your worldly experience that you have, you know better.

You seem to be very concerned about your looks......sorry this is an issue for you.

[ViIIager]

This thread is kind of depressing. I say that not because of the doom and gloom of "I got my JD from a top school, worked for 10 years, and now I can't find a job that pays better than 60k" but because someone got a JD, worked for 10 years, and now apparently can't find Monster.com. I see four options:

1. Honestly, if you love your job enough, the 60k isn't a dealbreaker. Stay put and don't complain, because there are other options that you're choosing not to pursue.

2. If you like your job and just need more cash, kept chugging as an attorney and find a new, better-paying firm to take you. Expect to make some sacrifices while you build a rep at your new firm.

3. Find a new profession. There are a TON of professions that like JDs; as an example, consulting firms (Big 4 Accounting, Booz Allen/Accenture/Lockheed/whoever) pay more than 60k to people coming out of undergrad and love hiring law school grads. A law degree is not a suicide pact that forces you to work as an attorney if you can't feed your children. It's a tool that opens doors; if you don't want to push yourself towards your goals (which apprently include making more than 60k), you probably wasted three years of your life and a great deal of money.

4. Marry rich, avoid the prenup, and use your legal education to execute a sweet divorce. Profit. Come back to TLS and make a cool post about it.

[Flanker1067]

Ha, I like no. 4. I was thinking though, I would avoid the divorce part by marrying someone I want to marry, who also happens to be rich.

[Drew2010]

factors that are BEYOND THE CONTROL of that law school grad. Factors like circumstances--how attractive and personable that grad is. How they look in a suit.

To a certain extent I think it is just plain laziness to say that those things are beyond a person’s control. 99% of the population can probably become attractive enough with a little effort that it won't prohibit them from being successful, or even be much of a hindrance to being successful. The same would go for how they look in a suit, or how personable they are. People can choose to take their fat ass to the gym, just like they can choose to behave however the hell they want.

[Hoopster]

At least by going to Yale with its fabulous LRAP, I won't ever have to worry about paying off my loans if I start at 30K after graduation and stay under 60K for the next ten years.

[Rocketman11]

Ugggghhhhhhhhh seriously!! I will venture to say that I have literally never seen the expression "beg the question" used correctly, except by people who are correcting incorrect uses by others.

I have literally never seen a JDU troll from somewhere other than NY. Not one.

I hate when people use LITERALLY improperly.

[Rocketman11]

Not that this thread is an example of this, but I like how TLSers' refusal to admit the realities of the legal market somehow makes it better. Like if enough people berate anyone who talks gloom and doom, that person is now in the minority and you can go back to your sunshine land that all will be back to normal in 2-3 years.

[blsingindisguise]

ITT:

1) People who have never been in the law job market call a person who is actually working as a lawyer a "troll" for claiming the market isn't very good.

2) People who have never had to support a family criticize a father for struggling on $60K a year in the NYC area because they were able to support their cheap college student lifestyle for less.

[Rocketman11]

ITT:

1) People who have never been in the law job market call a person who is actually working as a lawyer a "troll" for claiming the market isn't very good.

2) People who have never had to support a family criticize a father for struggling on $60K a year in the NYC area because they were able to support their cheap college student lifestyle for less.

What are you trying to say?? a case of 30 'Stones per week =\= raising a child?

[Drew2010]

ITT:

1) People who have never been in the law job market call a person who is actually working as a lawyer a "troll" for claiming the market isn't very good.

to quote the OP's blog (LinkRemoved):

Today we went over to the Top Law Schools forum and secretly replaced their regular brand of "pro-law school" forum posts with our own special brand of dark, sparkling "law school scambusting" forum posts. Can these lemmings on Top Law Schools forum tell the difference? Let's go there now and find out!



P.S. In case you missed the reference above, it refers to this old commercial.
Posted by HomelessLawyerPostingFromLibrary at 8:02 PM 4 comments

I'd call that person a troll, but you can call them whatever you like... maybe messiah?

[ViIIager]

ITT:

1) People who have never been in the law job market call a person who is actually working as a lawyer a "troll" for claiming the market isn't very good.

2) People who have never had to support a family criticize a father for struggling on $60K a year in the NYC area because they were able to support their cheap college student lifestyle for less.

Not that this thread is an example of this, but I like how TLSers' refusal to admit the realities of the legal market somehow makes it better. Like if enough people berate anyone who talks gloom and doom, that person is now in the minority and you can go back to your sunshine land that all will be back to normal in 2-3 years.

That's why I included option #3.

If you choose to live in NYC with family obligations and make 60k, that's a choice that you (and your family) has to deal with. There are other options, most of which don't include labeling law school as a "scam."

[ToTransferOrNot]

factors that are BEYOND THE CONTROL of that law school grad. Factors like circumstances--how attractive and personable that grad is. How they look in a suit.

To a certain extent I think it is just plain laziness to say that those things are beyond a person’s control. 99% of the population can probably become attractive enough with a little effort that it won't prohibit them from being successful, or even be much of a hindrance to being successful. The same would go for how they look in a suit, or how personable they are. People can choose to take their fat ass to the gym, just like they can choose to behave however the hell they want.

In fairness, waking up one morning and deciding not to be shy/reserved is a nearly impossible task. Also, you can go to the gym all you want, but if you are unlucky enough to have croocked teeth (and can't pay for adult orthodoncy--something which is incredibly expensive, a topic I unfortunately have first-hand knowledge about), or a bad back that forces you in to a slouch, you can't simply out-will those things.

Being a really overwight person who is just a jerk to the people around him/r, on the other hand, is certainly fixable.

[ranovr32]

factors that are BEYOND THE CONTROL of that law school grad. Factors like circumstances--how attractive and personable that grad is. How they look in a suit.

To a certain extent I think it is just plain laziness to say that those things are beyond a person’s control. 99% of the population can probably become attractive enough with a little effort that it won't prohibit them from being successful, or even be much of a hindrance to being successful. The same would go for how they look in a suit, or how personable they are. People can choose to take their fat ass to the gym, just like they can choose to behave however the hell they want.

In fairness, waking up one morning and deciding not to be shy/reserved is a nearly impossible task. Also, you can go to the gym all you want, but if you are unlucky enough to have croocked teeth (and can't pay for adult orthodoncy--something which is incredibly expensive, a topic I unfortunately have first-hand knowledge about), or a bad back that forces you in to a slouch, you can't simply out-will those things.

Being a really overwight person who is just a jerk to the people around him/r, on the other hand, is certainly fixable.

I believe you have a defeatists attitude and wouldn't make 60k with any degree after any amount of time with that attitude. I understand the legal market may not be excellent rite now but look at the stock market which is a forward economic indicator. Within the next couple of years there will be a big rebound in the legal market. I don't see the point in living my life as a pessimist. I understand that viewing reality as it is should be done, at the same time I have to say you seem like an eternal pessimist bound for astonishing mediocrity.

[ToTransferOrNot]

lolwut?

I never said that the things I indicated make a legal profession impossible to obtain--I was simply responding to a comment that physical and personality problems are straight-forward to fix.

Also, being a pessimist and being a defeatist are not the same thing. Some people, myself included, are quite capable of weilding pessimism as a tool to push themselves much further than they would if they were a sunny optimist about things. (I.e., some optimists have an "everything is going to work out" attitude, which prevents them from really driving at things. A pessimist in a similiar situation might say "well fuck, unless I work myself to the ground, this is all going to go to hell and a handbasket.") Different strokes for different folks.

As far as your random personal attack on me goes--hate to break it to you man, but my pessimism has pulled me from an overall background where all signs pointed to "in jail or dead by 20" to "kicking ass and taking names in one of the country's top law schools," so I *really* have no idea WTF you're talking about. I just happen to acknowledge that I can't wake up one day and will my teeth to be straight, or a good back, or an overnight change in to the life of the party.