"Don't go anywhere you wouldn't be satisfied at median" Forum

[los blancos]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is not finding this statement very useful ITE... How is everyone else coping with this ambiguity? I miss the days when everyone thought T10 median = biglaw.

[thesealocust]

n/m

[CE2JD]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is not finding this statement very useful ITE... How is everyone else coping with this ambiguity? I miss the days when everyone thought T10 median = biglaw.

Are you a 0L?

[rayiner]

Cognitive dissonance and optimism. If we followed our own advice, none of us would probably go outside YHS (maybe CCN). I mean TLS used to give people shit for going to GW, etc during the boom when they placed 40% biglaw (median being the kiss of death) and now that seems to be par for course at T7-14.

[los blancos]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is not finding this statement very useful ITE... How is everyone else coping with this ambiguity? I miss the days when everyone thought T10 median = biglaw.

Are you a 0L?

Yeah. Even ITE OCR at my UG was pretty decent this year. I managed to land final rounds with several awesome consulting firms but still managed to strike out. That + somewhat arbitrary nature of law school grading makes me nervous.

[RVP11]

I'd be pretty satisfied with median. I think a lot of people at UVA have expressed similar.

And a school placing 40% in BigLaw is far from a kiss of death for median. When T10s were placing 60% in BigLaw, you could be much lower than 40th percentile and still land a big firm job.

[rayiner]

I'd be pretty satisfied with median. I think a lot of people at UVA have expressed similar.

And a school placing 40% in BigLaw is far from a kiss of death for median. When T10s were placing 60% in BigLaw, you could be much lower than 40th percentile and still land a big firm job.

Prior to the recession, T14's could place nearly their whole class into biglaw. From '06-'08, 70-80% of Cornell students landed in firms over 100 attorneys, with another 10% or so in judicial clerkships. So if 60% ultimately went to NLJ250 firms, it wasn't because only 60% *could* have gone to an NLJ250 firm. That is not the case for schools who placed 30-40% of their class into NLJ250 firms. You can bet that a lot more than that number wanted an offer, but couldn't get one. Thus, being at 70th percentile at a T14 that placed 60% NLJ250 was qualitatively very different than being 55th percentile at a T25 that placed 45% NLJ250.

Moreover, 60% and 40% are one very different portions of the curve. The top schools have curves that make it difficult to distinguish between someone who is, say, 30th percentile and someone who is 40th percentile. However, it's usually very easy to distinguish between grades on either side of the median. Anecdotally, there was a major cliff in hiring at the median mark at schools like GWU/WUSTL/etc in previous years.

Now, I'm not saying below median is the kiss of death at T14s now. While all employers have much tighter grade cut-offs this year, it seems that this tightening hasn't been fully proportional to the reduction in hiring. Ie: you need higher grades to get the same firm than you used to, but grades are relatively less important than they used to be in determining who gets an offer. However, the overall hiring is still what it is. If a school places 40% into biglaw, with top 25% being quite safe and everyone from 25-65% having a shot, then people in that range have something like a 1/3 chance of getting an offer. Maybe not "kiss of death", but barring major soft factors, but a very nerve-wracking place to be I'm sure.

[NayBoer]

So what are the job prospects for a Northwestern student at median versus top third? I'm assuming biglaw is likely at top third and possible at median. Is it way too simplistic to just take the NLJ250 and add in 5-10% to filter out the clerks, then consider the result a rough approximation?

I don't necessarily need biglaw to make law school financially plausible, but I'd like to have an idea of my target.

[rayiner]

So what are the job prospects for a Northwestern student at median versus top third? I'm assuming biglaw is likely at top third and possible at median. Is it way too simplistic to just take the NLJ250 and add in 5-10% to filter out the clerks, then consider the result a rough approximation?

It is too simplistic. First, prior to ITE, it would give you an overly pessimistic number. Quoting TTT-LS from 2008:

I don't have hiring data, but I do have OCI callback data which is in the same ballpark. Reasoning from that set, and based on discussions with the carreer folks/2Ls/3Ls, the bottom half at NU all get BIGLAW if they want it, with the exception perhaps of the bottom 10ish percent (and even those folks can get BIGLAW if they have other "redeeming" characteristics that firms want...)

Second, ITE, it would give you an overly optimistic number. Placement for 2009 was down to 1/2 or 1/3 of 2008 levels based on the hearsay. This drop seems pretty consistent throughout the lower half of the T14.

[RVP11]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

[NayBoer]

So what are the job prospects for a Northwestern student at median versus top third? I'm assuming biglaw is likely at top third and possible at median. Is it way too simplistic to just take the NLJ250 and add in 5-10% to filter out the clerks, then consider the result a rough approximation?

It is too simplistic. First, prior to ITE, it would give you an overly pessimistic number. Quoting TTT-LS from 2008:

I don't have hiring data, but I do have OCI callback data which is in the same ballpark. Reasoning from that set, and based on discussions with the carreer folks/2Ls/3Ls, the bottom half at NU all get BIGLAW if they want it, with the exception perhaps of the bottom 10ish percent (and even those folks can get BIGLAW if they have other "redeeming" characteristics that firms want...)

Second, ITE, it would give you an overly optimistic number. Placement for 2009 was down to 1/2 or 1/3 of 2008 levels based on the hearsay. This drop seems pretty consistent throughout the lower half of the T14.

Thanks. I suppose it wouldn't have mattered anyway since the last NLJ250 I've seen was pretty dated and wouldn't consider the latest effects of the economy.

In practical terms, what does that mean for median at MVPNDCG? Are you saying it's a toss up and one needs top quartile to feel secure? Or is it something beyond grades, like connections and resume?

[NayBoer]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

That middle third would be fine with me, since I have several secondary markets in the middle of the country where I'd be happy.

Are you getting this from TLS or somewhere else?

[RVP11]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

That middle third would be fine with me, since I have several secondary markets in the middle of the country where I'd be happy.

Are you getting this from TLS or somewhere else?

TLS callback thread + knowledge of UVA OGI.

[NayBoer]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

That middle third would be fine with me, since I have several secondary markets in the middle of the country where I'd be happy.

Are you getting this from TLS or somewhere else?

TLS callback thread + knowledge of UVA OGI.

Thanks. No need to pester TLSers if I can go do my own research.

[los blancos]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

That middle third would be fine with me, since I have several secondary markets in the middle of the country where I'd be happy.

Are you getting this from TLS or somewhere else?

Yeah, honestly the thing that comforts me is that I would be fine with ending up in a relatively warm secondary market (maybe that's why Duke is so high on my list). I have no desire to end up in NYC.

[rayiner]

For MVPBDCN, I'd say things will look something like:

Top 1/3 - Very likely (but not guaranteed, ITE) BigLaw
Middle 1/3 - Going to depend a ton on the markets you're targeting (like, you won't be getting DC) and how well you interview
Bottom 1/3 - Close to zero chance at BigLaw

That middle third would be fine with me, since I have several secondary markets in the middle of the country where I'd be happy.

Are you getting this from TLS or somewhere else?

Yeah, honestly the thing that comforts me is that I would be fine with ending up in a relatively warm secondary market (maybe that's why Duke is so high on my list). I have no desire to end up in NYC.

I'm not sure it's clear that secondary markets are any easier to get than NYC barring special connections. NYC is prestigious, yes but it's also 5-6 times bigger than even the large secondary markets (Boston, LA, etc). That volume makes it much easier to get.

[NayBoer]

I'm not sure it's clear that secondary markets are any easier to get than NYC barring special connections. NYC is prestigious, yes but it's also 5-6 times bigger than even the large secondary markets (Boston, LA, etc). That volume makes it much easier to get.

What's a special connection? A family connection to the area or place that you've lived? Or something like friends with the hiring partner? I have family and personal connections to several of my target markets, so I'm wondering how valuable this is.

[awesomepossum]

Yeah. Even ITE OCR at my UG was pretty decent this year. I managed to land final rounds with several awesome consulting firms but still managed to strike out. That + somewhat arbitrary nature of law school grading makes me nervous.

what makes law school grading arbitrary?

[legends159]

median eh...a bit optimistic now are we?

[los blancos]

Yeah. Even ITE OCR at my UG was pretty decent this year. I managed to land final rounds with several awesome consulting firms but still managed to strike out. That + somewhat arbitrary nature of law school grading makes me nervous.

what makes law school grading arbitrary?

I guess the fact that you can know all of your shit and still fuck up.

[helfer snooterbagon]

Yeah. Even ITE OCR at my UG was pretty decent this year. I managed to land final rounds with several awesome consulting firms but still managed to strike out. That + somewhat arbitrary nature of law school grading makes me nervous.

what makes law school grading arbitrary?

I guess the fact that you can know all of your shit and still fuck up.

Grading is not arbitrary. Performance may be.