how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans? Forum

[biggamejames]

I think he meant: why go to college at all if you are going to get a degree in humanities? To which (putting aside non-utilitarian arguments of which I'm fond) id reply that the silly job market demands a bachelors unless you want to work a janitorial night shift.

Oh. Yeah, that's why I went.

[BradyToMoss]

top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever

This coming from a 0L. Fuck off and come talk to us when you have a basic idea of law school and the OCI process.

[postitnotes]

-

[Bill James]

What in the hell happened to this profession where a T-14 grad in the top 30% can't get a respectable job! When I look at other lawyers in their 50s, they all have decent jobs. It seems like in the past 15-20 years, employment prospects have gradually declined. So it's not only the economy. The days of people looking at law as a prestigious profession are over (unless you graduate summa from HYS).

I'm seriously starting to think that tuition is not worth it these days. When our parent's generation went to law school, tuition was ridiculously cheap. Now look at it. Law schools know they can charge whatever the hell they want, because everyone has watched enough T.V. to think that they will be rich. For some reason they think law school = medical school.

[Bill James]

top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever

This coming from a 0L. Fuck off and come talk to us when you have a basic idea of law school and the OCI process.

hahahahaha, +1

+1

Poster is pissed at the god-awful truth.

[biggamejames]

When I look at other lawyers in their 50s, they all have decent jobs. It seems like in the past 15-20 years, employment prospects have gradually declined.

Of course. Anyone who is still a lawyer in their 50s by definition managed to find and keep a legal job. That doesn't mean that law students have always been able to.

[dgouzoul]

top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever

This coming from a 0L. Fuck off and come talk to us when you have a basic idea of law school and the OCI process.

hahahahaha, +1

+1

Poster is pissed at the god-awful truth.

whoopsies

[Bill James]

When I look at other lawyers in their 50s, they all have decent jobs. It seems like in the past 15-20 years, employment prospects have gradually declined.

Of course. Anyone who is still a lawyer in their 50s by definition managed to find and keep a legal job. That doesn't mean that law students have always been able to.

Well you're right to a certain extent, but my point is that the profession has gone down hill. This is just speculation, but I bet it was a lot easier to get a decent paying job in 1990 than it was in 2007.

As much as I hate some of the assholes on jdunderground.com, they have opened my eyes a bit to the grim outlook of law school.

[Bankhead]

It's funny 1.5 years ago I remember posters would just ASSUME that if they went to a T14 that they would be making 160k coming out. 1L's at Mich would talk about where they were going to live in Manhattan when they got their biglaw jobs. It's almost satisfying to see how that all crumbled. The sense of entitlement some people feel is alarming.

[newcritic]

Didn't the supreme court just hear a case about bankruptcy and student loan debt? Maybe that will be an option...

Believe it dealt with the hardship exception to non-dischargeability of student loans. The long and short of it, is that it's nearly impossible to adequately show hardship. There have been instances of some courts forgiving a portion of the student debt upon a showing of hardship, but even those are hard to come across.

OK, so scratch that option.

[reasonable_man]

top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever

This coming from a 0L. Fuck off and come talk to us when you have a basic idea of law school and the OCI process.

hahahahaha, +1

+1

Poster is pissed at the god-awful truth.

+1000

[Anonymous User]

OP, do you mind sharing which school you attend? I have quite a few 2L friends who are in the exact same boat!

what schools?

Are you serious. Top 30%=no job... I thought if you were in the top 40% you would be considered "safe" at a bottom t14.

I go to CLS, and I have friends in the top 40% who also struck out (as did most people I know who were median or below). It's just a total fiasco out there.

[Bill James]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

[biggamejames]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

Cops (1) get shot at and (2) have useful skills. We're just going to be clueless law school graduates.

[BradyToMoss]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

Cops (1) get shot at and (2) have useful skills. We're just going to be clueless law school graduates.

I lol'd. Great response.

[09042014]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

That's bullshit, cops make much more than 40K.

Hey being a cop qualifies for IBR. So there you go OP.

[chadwick218]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

That's bullshit, cops make much more than 40K.

Hey being a cop qualifies for IBR. So there you go OP.

Depends on where they work ... some make much less!

[09042014]

How in the fuck does a t-14 only get a 40k a year job. That's how much a cop makes.

That's bullshit, cops make much more than 40K.

Hey being a cop qualifies for IBR. So there you go OP.

Depends on where they work ... some make much less!

In the northwest suburbs of Chicago, they all make 60K, 65K after their probationary year. They don't really get raises, but for a job that only requires a GED, that's not bad at all.

My dumb ass brother got put on academic probation at a TTTT undergrad for criminal justice and I'm trying to talk him into applying for a spot now, and doing his degree part time.

[ruleser]

I think he meant: why go to college at all if you are going to get a degree in humanities? To which (putting aside non-utilitarian arguments of which I'm fond) id reply that the silly job market demands a bachelors unless you want to work a janitorial night shift.

Oh. Yeah, that's why I went.

This actually was something new that just started in the 90's - I kind of always looked at it as a form of discrimination - even AA jobs with no specific degree knowledge required require a BA - that is just discriminating against people from poorer backgrounds/cultures that don't focus on ed. It's something the gov't should address at some point, only allow degrees required if specfic knowledge from a specific degree is required - yes, it's why so many kids end up 60K in debt to get a humanities degree.

Honestly, I think co's would have better employees if people who didn't really want to learn anything didn't have to blow 4 years partying before joining the work force...

[OperaSoprano]

The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.

This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.

Oh i'm sorry if my post was offensive in any way (I probably shouldn't have used that as an example). You have a solid plan and that is most important. Plus Fordham is a great school!

No offense taken. I've been reading this thread, and thinking about the theme here... No matter what we're paying, those of us attending schools not at the very top of the prestige pyramid (arguable where this line might be) are taking a leap in the dark. We don't know, we cannot know what the market will be like down the road. We all know there is an oversupply of lawyers, and we know the future is uncertain. In my own mind, the only guarantee we have is of a fantastic learning experience. It's already altered my life for the better. Saccharine, but true.

I don't know how to properly value that sort of thing. Certainly I'm not borrowing $200k solely so I can realize some dream. I know for a fact that a Fordham JD will give my options outside fashion, in a way that my FIT degree just cannot. Of course I want to practice, but if I wind up doing public relations at a nonprofit, or even development at my own school, I won't think my degree a waste. I will get a job, and there is a near certainty it won't be one I could have gotten with a degree in fashion merchandising.

Do I wish it were cheaper? Yeah, that I do. I guess I'll get in line behind everyone else.

[crazycanuck]

I find it amazing that firms ever considered people with no WE worth 160K - it was just part of a bubbled-era I guess. I could see the value of a top law student starting somewhere 70-90ish max, at a very big firm that thinks they'll stay a while. Someone with signficant WE, maybe 100Kish. But for the most part I'd imagine expect what you would from any career, starting not so high, but having significant ops as you move up - IF you are any good. In my career, I started with what I thought was great money in an entry position at about 30K (little less.) That didn't mean I'd earn 30K for the next ten years, or even five. The bumps come, slowly at first, then less slowly, then you get in a position where you can push/bargain a bit. It took all of about 2 years to increase my salary about 80%. Another 2 1/2 years to increase it another 50-60%ish. Then 4 years to bump another 3040% ish. All of the bumps came as a result of me being successful and having ops come up to bargain from. Long and short, about 1 decade to more than triple my starting salary.

This is interesting that you brought up the importance of WE. I had a lunch a couple days ago with a big law partner who helps a lot with the hiring at his firm (he's a partner at one of the 7 Canadian national firms) and he said that he has been seeing a trend in applicants who are applying with no w/e, no experience in a big firm, nothing. and expect to get hired because their grades are good. He likes to see strong grades, but in his eyes a A+ applicant with no previous work experience will not be as successful as a B+ applicant with solid work experience at a big firm. Hiring is a little different in Canada, in that the school you attend is not as important, it barely registers with him. The two things he looks for most is work experience and grades. People without work experience have to work MUCH harder to get past the screening interview than their peers who have serious W/E, and some of their resumes go straight to the recycling even though they are in the top 20%. He told me not to go to law school until I had done something useful. I am going to work at Deloitte, and he said that if I get my CPA with a few years at Deloitte, go to law school, get a B+ average, the big law firms will be drooling over me. Of course, this is Canada and our legal market isn't in tatters so take it for what it's worth.

I sometimes wonder about the advice that is doled out on here that good grades = good job and that firms don't care about a lack of previous work experience. I would think it would raise some eyebrows.

[Anonymous User]

I sometimes wonder about the advice that is doled out on here that good grades = good job and that firms don't care about a lack of previous work experience. I would think it would raise some eyebrows.

Even in the US this has become more the case. The people I know who did the best in the interview process were the ones that had professional resumes. They had real work experience (or at the very least, substantive internships). I had several partners comment that I would not be at a call back if I didn't have the work experience I had. People with the very top grades were getting lots of offers regardless of prior experience, but after you took that narrow slice of the class away, work experience seemed to be one of the best predictors of success.

[crazycanuck]

I sometimes wonder about the advice that is doled out on here that good grades = good job and that firms don't care about a lack of previous work experience. I would think it would raise some eyebrows.

Even in the US this has become more the case. The people I know who did the best in the interview process were the ones that had professional resumes. They had real work experience (or at the very least, substantive internships). I had several partners comment that I would not be at a call back if I didn't have the work experience I had. People with the very top grades were getting lots of offers regardless of prior experience, but after you took that narrow slice of the class away, work experience seemed to be one of the best predictors of success.

It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.

[GATORTIM]

no people skills whatsoever

Fuck off and come talk to us when you have a basic idea of law school and the OCI process.

[thesealocust]

It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.

This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?