The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Feeling the slumps of 3L job searching... I think I'm just going to stop for right now. I'd feel much happier knowing that there's nothing I can do at the moment, and I need to wait for limited spring apps or just completely post-bar. I have an internship right now and I thought I'd be making amazing contacts there... but I really haven't. The time commitment of the internship is sucking the soul out of me and I'm worried my GPA will suffer for it.

Coming to the vale for moral support. Having significant other issues as well - I don't want to stay in this area, we are very close to major city but not close enough for comfortable commute (it could lead to 1.5-2hrs each way) - SO says he will not move and does not seem to understand when I tell him all the jobs are in the city X ,Y, or Z! Going to choose between SO and career... sigh. I guess if I have no job it won't be that hard.

[zot1]

Feeling the slumps of 3L job searching... I think I'm just going to stop for right now. I'd feel much happier knowing that there's nothing I can do at the moment, and I need to wait for limited spring apps or just completely post-bar. I have an internship right now and I thought I'd be making amazing contacts there... but I really haven't. The time commitment of the internship is sucking the soul out of me and I'm worried my GPA will suffer for it.

Coming to the vale for moral support. Having significant other issues as well - I don't want to stay in this area, we are very close to major city but not close enough for comfortable commute (it could lead to 1.5-2hrs each way) - SO says he will not move and does not seem to understand when I tell him all the jobs are in the city X ,Y, or Z! Going to choose between SO and career... sigh. I guess if I have no job it won't be that hard.

A few things, OP. First, it's too early to get discouraged. A lot of jobs open in the spring and a lot more other jobs open post bar. Second, if you ever feel like you need to choose between SO and career, then perhaps you weren't meant to be together after this period anyway. That is only if SO's job is transferable to the places you want to go to. If not, then he may have a point. But also, he would need to be okay with you taking longer to get a job and supporting you through that. Honestly though, wasting 3+ hours in traffic every day is not healthy.

[Anonymous User]

Feeling the slumps of 3L job searching... I think I'm just going to stop for right now. I'd feel much happier knowing that there's nothing I can do at the moment, and I need to wait for limited spring apps or just completely post-bar. I have an internship right now and I thought I'd be making amazing contacts there... but I really haven't. The time commitment of the internship is sucking the soul out of me and I'm worried my GPA will suffer for it.

Coming to the vale for moral support. Having significant other issues as well - I don't want to stay in this area, we are very close to major city but not close enough for comfortable commute (it could lead to 1.5-2hrs each way) - SO says he will not move and does not seem to understand when I tell him all the jobs are in the city X ,Y, or Z! Going to choose between SO and career... sigh. I guess if I have no job it won't be that hard.

A few things, OP. First, it's too early to get discouraged. A lot of jobs open in the spring and a lot more other jobs open post bar. Second, if you ever feel like you need to choose between SO and career, then perhaps you weren't meant to be together after this period anyway. That is only if SO's job is transferable to the places you want to go to. If not, then he may have a point. But also, he would need to be okay with you taking longer to get a job and supporting you through that. Honestly though, wasting 3+ hours in traffic every day is not healthy.

What kinds of jobs open up in the spring?

[zot1]

Feeling the slumps of 3L job searching... I think I'm just going to stop for right now. I'd feel much happier knowing that there's nothing I can do at the moment, and I need to wait for limited spring apps or just completely post-bar. I have an internship right now and I thought I'd be making amazing contacts there... but I really haven't. The time commitment of the internship is sucking the soul out of me and I'm worried my GPA will suffer for it.

Coming to the vale for moral support. Having significant other issues as well - I don't want to stay in this area, we are very close to major city but not close enough for comfortable commute (it could lead to 1.5-2hrs each way) - SO says he will not move and does not seem to understand when I tell him all the jobs are in the city X ,Y, or Z! Going to choose between SO and career... sigh. I guess if I have no job it won't be that hard.

A few things, OP. First, it's too early to get discouraged. A lot of jobs open in the spring and a lot more other jobs open post bar. Second, if you ever feel like you need to choose between SO and career, then perhaps you weren't meant to be together after this period anyway. That is only if SO's job is transferable to the places you want to go to. If not, then he may have a point. But also, he would need to be okay with you taking longer to get a job and supporting you through that. Honestly though, wasting 3+ hours in traffic every day is not healthy.

What kinds of jobs open up in the spring?

Some small to mid-sized firms and, sometimes, local government.

EDIT: some public interest fellowships as well. I always forget about those guys. But in case it matters, judicial clerkships two years out as well.

[Anonymous User]

Have an interview coming up that I wanted some advice about.

I worked at Firm A for a very little while some time back. The founding partners, some other partners, and some associates there had come over directly from Firm B. Both are small firms, though Firm B is a little bigger. Both are in the same niche practice area which I really enjoy doing.

To hear it from the people at Firm A, whom I got to trust/like and don't think were just out to bad mouth their old firm for no reason, they left Firm B mostly because the higher ups there were complete assholes (and also didn't want to continue working such long hours).

Anyway, I now have an interview with Firm B. Even if everything the people at Firm A told me was true, I still wouldn't be in a position to turn down an offer from Firm B right now.

My question is really just how I should play it at the interview if Firm B brings up the defection, or if they ask about whether the people at Firm A ever talked about them, or anything like that.

Thanks

they will obviously know the people when they see your resume. they obviously only had the best things to say about them. you have no idea why they left but they're not going to ask you that lol. this stuff happens at every single law firm all the time.. i'd throw in how the work at firm b made you realize how much u like that practice area, and how they mentioned the good training they got at firm a and the great work they did there, or something along those lines

my 2 cents. this seems like a positive to me. I had a very positive relationship with both my 1L summer firm and another firm that defected from them to form a satellite office of another firm in the same city. Both firms spoke nothing but highly of each other.

If you're saying that, if Firm B should ask whether Firm A ever talked about them, I should lie and say that they only had nice things to say; I don't think that'll work because I'm pretty sure they all hate each other and that hate is all out in the open.

If asked I'll probably lie and say they just never talked about Firm B, and that I have no idea why they left Firm B, though I was aware a bunch of them came from Firm B. Pretty straightforward I guess - I may have been worrying about it too much earlier.

Crazy if they really do, small firm politics I guess? but yea I think that's the right approach. Definitely don't say anything negative because you never know who might actually be friends or friendly between the two firms. Talk about the similarities in work and why it makes you like the practice area and the firm you're interviewing for. I would agree with the end though, this really doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. Good luck dude!

Update on this:

Went to the interview, and Firm B apparently has their attorneys sign non-compete agreements as part of a contract, which also says that the attorney can only be fired for cause.

I was asked if that was something I would consider, and I said yes, though my immediate thought was "I'm pretty sure that's not enforceable, and that's its against the ethics rules to even offer or enter into non-compete agreements for attorneys." Looked it up afterward, and that was correct.

Other than that, the interview went normally, and nothing negative was said about the people I worked for at Firm A.

If I am offered the job I'd probably sign the contract (desperate as fuck - and I know the non-compete is unenforceable, even if it is technically unethical for me to even sign it), but wow.

[dietcoke0]

Um, http://www.americanbar.org/groups/profe ... ctice.html

Non-competes for lawyers generally aren't allowed. So if they require you to sign, I can't imagine they the NC is enforceable, and in fact, would be a violation to the managing partners.

[Anonymous User]

Um, http://www.americanbar.org/groups/profe ... ctice.html

Non-competes for lawyers generally aren't allowed. So if they require you to sign, I can't imagine they the NC is enforceable, and in fact, would be a violation to the managing partners.

Yep, that's what I said in the post above. By signing it, I would also be in violation of the rule, because I would be a "lawyer ... participat[ing] in ... making ... [an] agreement that restricts the right of a lawyer to practice after termination of the relationship."

I would guess that the bar wouldn't go after the employee-attorney though; they'd only bother with the law firm.

[Anonymous User]

You might have a duty to report this to the ABA? Not an ethics master, but you may want to consider that possibility.

[ballouttacontrol]

My PR class was a joke... but are the ABA model rules actually enforceable in some kind of way? I thought everything was just governed by whatever bar you are a part of, which may or may not reflect the ABA model rules. Anyways, who gives a fuck. Employers in California have everyone sign a non-compete even though non-competes are completely unenforceable in California. Just sign it and move on with your life knowing it did absolutely nothing

[Stanford4Me]

My PR class was a joke... but are the ABA model rules actually enforceable in some kind of way? I thought everything was just governed by whatever bar you are a part of, which may or may not reflect the ABA model rules. Anyways, who gives a fuck. Employers in California have everyone sign a non-compete even though non-competes are completely unenforceable in California. Just sign it and move on with your life knowing it did absolutely nothing

If I remember correctly, ABA rules are just a model meant to guide state associations on recommended rules. Which, I guess, explains why they're called model rules.

[Abbie Doobie]

not sure if this has been addressed in the million pages in this thread, but for those that haven't taken the bar yet, are you guys still applying to job postings that say "must be barred in at least one state" to see if shit sticks?

[zot1]

not sure if this has been addressed in the million pages in this thread, but for those that haven't taken the bar yet, are you guys still applying to job postings that say "must be barred in at least one state" to see if shit sticks?

Yes, apply.

[ballouttacontrol]

I've applied to a fuckload of listings like that, but it's become clear that as a 3L you are only considered for 3L positions. Not sure applying to listings is any better than applying to random firms, because virtually no firms actually indicate they need a firstyear

All the interviews I've gotten have just been completely cold applications or on my school's simplicity (which has been about a 90% success rate of getting a phone screener)

If you mean you just took the bar but dont ave results yet sry maybe dif idk

[CRUNKlestilskin]

when you guys are applying to 3l job postings, are you sending your apps in via the LawCruit online forms they have on their websites or are you emailing your app directly to the recruiting contact at the office you are applying to?

[Anonymous User]

How do you have such a high hit rate from simplciity? I have like 10%, maybe

[ballouttacontrol]

when you guys are applying to 3l job postings, are you sending your apps in via the LawCruit online forms they have on their websites or are you emailing your app directly to the recruiting contact at the office you are applying to?

I usually fill out the lawcruit, cus if they have it, that's what the recruiter is gonna say to do anyways. Every time I do one I fucking pray it's not the ones where I need to input every detail of my job history... fuck those things

How do you have such a high hit rate from simplciity? I have like 10%, maybe

I have a really good resume for my area of law, the no offer aside. Symplicity listings are definitely looking for someone tho, so I think as long as you fit the bill of what they're looking for you'll get a call. I'm also selective on Symplicity, not applying to every stupid af listing on there. That may account for the difference too

[Anonymous User]

Hello Vale - I'm from a T2 regional school, in top 10%, no job lined up, but I hope to go into government if possible. I had an idea to run by the vale..
There is a local gov't agency in my County that I'd like to work at one day. I thought it was too bad that they didn't have a fellowship program. I have a contact from my last internship at another County agency that is going to introduce me to one of her contacts there. I'd like to write up a proposal creating a 1-yr (well 2yr would would be ideal) fellowship for the following year for this other county agency. I feel like it's a small enough agency that maybe something informal like this would be doable. There are maybe 6-8 attorneys there, with 3-4 from my law school.

Ideas, thoughts, is this too optimistic? Is this the kind of thing equal justice works funds that I should be looking into?

[Anonymous User]

Hello Vale - I'm from a T2 regional school, in top 10%, no job lined up, but I hope to go into government if possible. I had an idea to run by the vale..
There is a local gov't agency in my County that I'd like to work at one day. I thought it was too bad that they didn't have a fellowship program. I have a contact from my last internship at another County agency that is going to introduce me to one of her contacts there. I'd like to write up a proposal creating a 1-yr (well 2yr would would be ideal) fellowship for the following year for this other county agency. I feel like it's a small enough agency that maybe something informal like this would be doable. There are maybe 6-8 attorneys there, with 3-4 from my law school.

Ideas, thoughts, is this too optimistic? Is this the kind of thing equal justice works funds that I should be looking into?

I don't think EJW usually applies in situations like that. However you should definitely still make an effort to reach out af ask about their hiring situation and express interest. You have the kinda things local government looks for: demonstrated commitment to public service, ties to the region, and good grades.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, I am in a bit of a pickle. A firm I interviewed with last week, called me and told me they are very interested and for me to email them my salary requirements. However, I have absolutely no idea what to say.

The firm is small but is in a niche,very quickly growing, area of law and their client list is incredibly impressive. During the interview, the partner told me they bill out at 350 an hour. The practice is national in scope. So, I really just do not know what to say. I know that local ID firms pay 65k to start, and that they bill out at half of the partners. So, I was thinking of saying 75k-85k? Or, does anyone know of what I should say?

[Anonymous User]

ANON from above.

Or is there some formula I can use to come up with a range? Hourly rate * hours /Expenses or some shit. I will be expected to bill 1800-2100

[SFSpartan]

Hey everyone, I am in a bit of a pickle. A firm I interviewed with last week, called me and told me they are very interested and for me to email them my salary requirements. However, I have absolutely no idea what to say.

The firm is small but is in a niche,very quickly growing, area of law and their client list is incredibly impressive. During the interview, the partner told me they bill out at 350 an hour. The practice is national in scope. So, I really just do not know what to say. I know that local ID firms pay 65k to start, and that they bill out at half of the partners. So, I was thinking of saying 75k-85k? Or, does anyone know of what I should say?

That seems like about the right range, assuming big ID firm. I don't do ID work, but I work at a firm that started as an ID firm and has been gradually moving away from that practice- $85k is what our ID folks make, with similar billing rates.

Seems like it would be helpful to search the firm. Glassdoor can be pretty revealing.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, I am in a bit of a pickle. A firm I interviewed with last week, called me and told me they are very interested and for me to email them my salary requirements. However, I have absolutely no idea what to say.

The firm is small but is in a niche,very quickly growing, area of law and their client list is incredibly impressive. During the interview, the partner told me they bill out at 350 an hour. The practice is national in scope. So, I really just do not know what to say. I know that local ID firms pay 65k to start, and that they bill out at half of the partners. So, I was thinking of saying 75k-85k? Or, does anyone know of what I should say?

That seems like about the right range, assuming big ID firm. I don't do ID work, but I work at a firm that started as an ID firm and has been gradually moving away from that practice- $85k is what our ID folks make, with similar billing rates.

Seems like it would be helpful to search the firm. Glassdoor can be pretty revealing.

This is not ID. This is more like M&A and Litigation for a particular area of law.

I said the ID firm to provide some sort of baseline.

EDIT: I can't really the search of the firm as it is very young and only has 10 employees..

[SFSpartan]

Hey everyone, I am in a bit of a pickle. A firm I interviewed with last week, called me and told me they are very interested and for me to email them my salary requirements. However, I have absolutely no idea what to say.

The firm is small but is in a niche,very quickly growing, area of law and their client list is incredibly impressive. During the interview, the partner told me they bill out at 350 an hour. The practice is national in scope. So, I really just do not know what to say. I know that local ID firms pay 65k to start, and that they bill out at half of the partners. So, I was thinking of saying 75k-85k? Or, does anyone know of what I should say?

That seems like about the right range, assuming big ID firm. I don't do ID work, but I work at a firm that started as an ID firm and has been gradually moving away from that practice- $85k is what our ID folks make, with similar billing rates.

Seems like it would be helpful to search the firm. Glassdoor can be pretty revealing.

This is not ID. This is more like M&A and Litigation for a particular area of law.

I said the ID firm to provide some sort of baseline.

EDIT: I can't really the search of the firm as it is very young and only has 10 employees..

Got it. In that case, is the partner billing out at $350, or does "they" refer to the firm (i.e. is the firm billing out juniors at $350)? If the former, you're still in the right range. If the latter, you may want to bump salary up a bit.

[Anonymous User]

An old school rule of thumb for small firms- you should bill 3 times your salary- 1/3 goes to your salary, 1/3 goes to overhead, and 1/3 goes to partners pockets. I doubt your billing rate will be $350, but this may still be of help if you assume a $200 rate as a junior.

[Anonymous User]

Any goods tip for the email content? I was thinking about showing my reasoning...

Sorry if these are dumb questions.

Maybe I should just tell him I do not exactly what would be a good salary I as I do not have any reference points from which to have a desired salary?

EDIT: Sent an email saying the above, he is calling my references today.