The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[zot1]

Ok, so, sorry if this comes off as sounding pathetic, but does anyone have any words of wisdom for someone (me) who is just running out of motivation (and into depression) to apply for anything at all?

I am in CA, so I won't have results until thanksgiving, for one thing. And for another, I don't want to be in CA. Or practice law at all. I'd almost fellate someone just to get a 9-5 job somewhere that would maybe lead me to another industry that I'm actually interested in, or at least free time to get some hobbies.

I'm unemployed and living with family, which doesn't help either. I see the total number of job apps people have sent out here, and from better law schools than mine to boot, and I'm just starting to lose all hope...

PM me. I used to live in CA so I may have some words of advice that might help.

[Anonymous User]

Ok, I need some advice. I went on an interview last week that I thought went really well. But I got dinged almost immediately and it has me really discouraged. I went to an upper T14 and my grades were not good 1L (but also not a total disaster). I brought them up to around median by the time I graduated. I struck out at 2L OCI, but I ended up getting a position with a really interesting/influential public interest organization in the practice area I wanted to go into. Without going into a ton of detail, the public interest organization pulled out at the last second (it had nothing to do with me-- they were having some problems). So that left me with no job only a few weeks before that summer. I ended up scrambling to find something and took a summer associate position with a very small boutique firm. I did well there, got along with the principal attorney, got an offer etc. But I realized that my passion in law was in a practice area that that firm does not do, so I turned down the offer to throw myself into the mercy of 3L OCI. I've graduated now, and have still not found anything.

It seems that my interviewers do not understand why I went to that firm, or worse think that that firm is the best that I could get grade-wise (which is not true). I would rather not go into the long story about the public interest organization in an interview, but I can't help but think that the BigLaw/MidLaw interviewers whom I have met look at me with a lot of skepticism because of that firm.

I realize this is a . . . unique situation. But has anyone on here addressed going from a very small/non-prestigious firm to a traditional BigLaw gig in an interview? If any one has insight about entry-level hiring at a law firm at this point in the year, that would also be appreciated. My OCS' only advice is to network. . . which, ok-- but is it even worth my while to network at a large firm? Better to target Mid-sized firms?

[3|ink]

I got a clerkship at the district court!! While I don't know if I should consider myself "out of the vale" on account of the position only being 1-2 years, it is a massive weight off my shoulders (for the time being) to actually be employed.

Keep your heads up everyone! There's always something out there.

Grats bro. What was your strategy? Did you just apply to openings on OSCAR? Or were you mass mailing private firms?

I'm wondering what I should be doing. It seems like there are almost no jobs left to apply for.

[Anonymous User]

Ok, so, sorry if this comes off as sounding pathetic, but does anyone have any words of wisdom for someone (me) who is just running out of motivation (and into depression) to apply for anything at all?

I am in CA, so I won't have results until thanksgiving, for one thing. And for another, I don't want to be in CA. Or practice law at all. I'd almost fellate someone just to get a 9-5 job somewhere that would maybe lead me to another industry that I'm actually interested in, or at least free time to get some hobbies.

I'm unemployed and living with family, which doesn't help either. I see the total number of job apps people have sent out here, and from better law schools than mine to boot, and I'm just starting to lose all hope...

Buck up. You could be a 2014 grad who just finished an unpaid fellowship with nothing lined up. Oh wait. That's me.

Sounds like you don't want the law and you don't want CA. Move states while you can. Get your foot in the door in an industry you desire. If you're young and without dependents, do it now.

[EvelynS]

I have an interview with the IB/fund for a compliance job scheduled this week. It should last for about 4 hrs. I am terrified. I don't even know what type of questions I should expect. Any advice or words of encouragement are highly appreciated.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know if job hunting gets easier after bar results in NY? I'm t20, median grades, but E-board and published on secondary journal, moot court, two clinics, and some interesting internships, and have obvious focus in practice group that NYC is busy in NY, but after well over 100 apps, still haven't been able to land anything, or get an interview at a place I would want to work. I'm not aiming high either. Applying for small firms with 60k starting in addition to any other position I remotely seem qualified for. I understand part of the process, and just keep plugging at it, but was curious if things open up a little after the bar results come out.

[beariful]

I have an interview with the IB/fund for a compliance job scheduled this week. It should last for about 4 hrs. I am terrified. I don't even know what type of questions I should expect. Any advice or words of encouragement are highly appreciated.

I've worked in compliance in financial services for a few years now. Interviews tend to be more behavioral/job fit questions rather than technical knowledge (especially in the more entry-level positions). I would prepare for it the same way you would prepare for any other interview - research as much as possible about the IB/fund, why you want to work there, why you're interested in compliance, why you'd choose compliance over traditional law practice, how your law school background makes you a better candidate, why you think compliance is important, etc. If you already have your interview schedule, look up your interviewers and get a feel for their backgrounds. People end up in compliance from a variety of places, so they may have some interesting backgrounds that could spark good conversations.

IMO, compliance is a great alternative to traditional law practice - more predictable hours, steadily growing field, decent income potential, and a wide array of industries with opportunities. And usually, you still get the chance to use your legal background to some extent (although this will vary with positions).

Good luck on your interview! You'll do great!

[Anonymous User]

I'm really starting to freak out and lose hope guys. I'm a 2014 grad who is currently working as an investigator in the area of law that I want. Ive been mass mailing and networking but just can't seem to find an attorney position. This really blows.

Any other 2014 or earlier grads out there who have any words of encouragement or success stories?

[Anonymous User]

There is a law clerk position that opened up at the Public Defender's office in Ventura County. It is a great opportunity to get some quick experience. The application deadline is Oct. 2.

[Anonymous User]

Here is the link to the position: http://agency.governmentjobs.com/ventura/default.cfm

Scroll down to Law Clerk-Fixed term

[OperaAttorney]

Decided to use this thread to vent.

I am a 3L. I am at a T25 law school with a 3.5 (which is at least top 1/3). I have passed the Patent Bar and invested great time and effort into IP classes/ECs/papers. I really just don't understand why I have not received a job (or even a callback) yet. I have submitted over 200 applications to firms, companies, you name it. I'm not asocial either, and think that I interview decently well. At least this is what I have been told in mock interviews.

I had a job before law school, but believed my school when it listed private sector starting mean at $145k. I also made sure to look up the real (adjusted) employment rate on graduation (50%) and have for that reason made sure to stay relatively high in my class. Now I've decided to graduate early to get this **** over with, and am not sure what I am qualified for. My life sciences background, lack of post grad experience, and lack of state bar (as well as geographic connections, for that matter) make it all but impossible for me to get a job where/in the field I want (though I am currently applying to any and all jobs). Meanwhile, veterans and URMs with similar/worse stats to my own are securing biglaw jobs with their first interview, while I've paid out over $5k at this point going to interview programs and networking in ways that OCS said would help me. Then there are the speakers who come in (yea, I go to all of them) and say that they struggled too, and that all you need to do is to stay focused. Screw that. I've focused as hard as I can on the type of law that I want to do, and have repeatedly come out empty-handed. At what point do I give up and just start bartending or evading my debt in Europe?

I have two suggestions.

First, fix your attitude. Griping about biglaw jobs going to veterans and URMS suggests you are haughty and entitled. Throwing a cyber tantrum about not having found a job yet suggests you need to grow up more. Here is the truth: the world owes you nothing, and you simply don't know why the veterans and the URMs who got the Biglaw jobs you didn't get. (Maybe they interviewed better than you did. Maybe they spoke better English than you do. Maybe their writing samples showed that they can construct cogent arguments and express them in simple, elegant sentences -- something most lawyers cannot do.) Like the other million law school graduates, you chose to join a profession with daunting job prospects. Anyone paying attention to the news about the legal market knows that graduates from Yale to Cooley are struggling to find jobs. Simply put, no one has it easy. So, you must do what every mature, balanced adult who has ever faced adversity had to do: suck it up and keep on climbing until you reach your goal.

Second, get more creative with your job search. Look for paths less frequently travelled. For example, you could offer to volunteer at a firm or a government agency a few days a week. You'll get good experience and meet some attorneys in your desired practice area. And if you're pleasant and friendly, you might develop a friendship with an attorney who is willing to put his or her name on the line for you by making calls, emailing, suggesting you for future vacancies, and so on. I can't tell you how many attorneys I know who've done this; the numbers will startle you. So do consider it. Too many law school graduates are too arrogant and impatient to do it.

[Anonymous User]

Nvm

[A. Nony Mouse]

Decided to use this thread to vent.

I am a 3L. I am at a T25 law school with a 3.5 (which is at least top 1/3). I have passed the Patent Bar and invested great time and effort into IP classes/ECs/papers. I really just don't understand why I have not received a job (or even a callback) yet. I have submitted over 200 applications to firms, companies, you name it. I'm not asocial either, and think that I interview decently well. At least this is what I have been told in mock interviews.

I had a job before law school, but believed my school when it listed private sector starting mean at $145k. I also made sure to look up the real (adjusted) employment rate on graduation (50%) and have for that reason made sure to stay relatively high in my class. Now I've decided to graduate early to get this **** over with, and am not sure what I am qualified for. My life sciences background, lack of post grad experience, and lack of state bar (as well as geographic connections, for that matter) make it all but impossible for me to get a job where/in the field I want (though I am currently applying to any and all jobs). Meanwhile, veterans and URMs with similar/worse stats to my own are securing biglaw jobs with their first interview, while I've paid out over $5k at this point going to interview programs and networking in ways that OCS said would help me. Then there are the speakers who come in (yea, I go to all of them) and say that they struggled too, and that all you need to do is to stay focused. Screw that. I've focused as hard as I can on the type of law that I want to do, and have repeatedly come out empty-handed. At what point do I give up and just start bartending or evading my debt in Europe?

I have two suggestions.

First, fix your attitude. Griping about biglaw jobs going to veterans and URMS suggests you are haughty and entitled. Throwing a cyber tantrum about not having found a job yet suggests you need to grow up more. Here is the truth: the world owes you nothing, and you simply don't know why the veterans and the URMs who got the Biglaw jobs you didn't get. (Maybe they interviewed better than you did. Maybe they spoke better English than you do. Maybe their writing samples showed that they can construct cogent arguments and express them in simple, elegant sentences -- something most lawyers cannot do.) Like the other million law school graduates, you chose to join a profession with daunting job prospects. Anyone paying attention to the news about the legal market knows that graduates from Yale to Cooley are struggling to find jobs. Simply put, no one has it easy. So, you must do what every mature, balanced adult who has ever faced adversity had to do: suck it up and keep on climbing until you reach your goal.

Second, get more creative with your job search. Look for paths less frequently travelled. For example, you could offer to volunteer at a firm or a government agency a few days a week. You'll get good experience and meet some attorneys in your desired practice area. And if you're pleasant and friendly, you might develop a friendship with an attorney who is willing to put his or her name on the line for you by making calls, emailing, suggesting you for future vacancies, and so on. I can't tell you how many attorneys I know who've done this; the numbers will startle you. So do consider it. Too many law school graduates are too arrogant and impatient to do it.

I mean, this is kind of a safe space for venting, even if September/October of 3L is a little early to throw in the towel.

Also, isn't it illegal to work for free for a private employer?

[OperaAttorney]

Decided to use this thread to vent.

I am a 3L. I am at a T25 law school with a 3.5 (which is at least top 1/3). I have passed the Patent Bar and invested great time and effort into IP classes/ECs/papers. I really just don't understand why I have not received a job (or even a callback) yet. I have submitted over 200 applications to firms, companies, you name it. I'm not asocial either, and think that I interview decently well. At least this is what I have been told in mock interviews.

I had a job before law school, but believed my school when it listed private sector starting mean at $145k. I also made sure to look up the real (adjusted) employment rate on graduation (50%) and have for that reason made sure to stay relatively high in my class. Now I've decided to graduate early to get this **** over with, and am not sure what I am qualified for. My life sciences background, lack of post grad experience, and lack of state bar (as well as geographic connections, for that matter) make it all but impossible for me to get a job where/in the field I want (though I am currently applying to any and all jobs). Meanwhile, veterans and URMs with similar/worse stats to my own are securing biglaw jobs with their first interview, while I've paid out over $5k at this point going to interview programs and networking in ways that OCS said would help me. Then there are the speakers who come in (yea, I go to all of them) and say that they struggled too, and that all you need to do is to stay focused. Screw that. I've focused as hard as I can on the type of law that I want to do, and have repeatedly come out empty-handed. At what point do I give up and just start bartending or evading my debt in Europe?

I have two suggestions.

First, fix your attitude. Griping about biglaw jobs going to veterans and URMS suggests you are haughty and entitled. Throwing a cyber tantrum about not having found a job yet suggests you need to grow up more. Here is the truth: the world owes you nothing, and you simply don't know why the veterans and the URMs who got the Biglaw jobs you didn't get. (Maybe they interviewed better than you did. Maybe they spoke better English than you do. Maybe their writing samples showed that they can construct cogent arguments and express them in simple, elegant sentences -- something most lawyers cannot do.) Like the other million law school graduates, you chose to join a profession with daunting job prospects. Anyone paying attention to the news about the legal market knows that graduates from Yale to Cooley are struggling to find jobs. Simply put, no one has it easy. So, you must do what every mature, balanced adult who has ever faced adversity had to do: suck it up and keep on climbing until you reach your goal.

Second, get more creative with your job search. Look for paths less frequently travelled. For example, you could offer to volunteer at a firm or a government agency a few days a week. You'll get good experience and meet some attorneys in your desired practice area. And if you're pleasant and friendly, you might develop a friendship with an attorney who is willing to put his or her name on the line for you by making calls, emailing, suggesting you for future vacancies, and so on. I can't tell you how many attorneys I know who've done this; the numbers will startle you. So do consider it. Too many law school graduates are too arrogant and impatient to do it.

I mean, this is kind of a safe space for venting, even if September/October of 3L is a little early to throw in the towel.

Also, isn't it illegal to work for free for a private employer?

Unless there's a TLS rule that forbids disagreeing thoughtfully with poster, I think my response is okay. I just happen to find complaining a futile, boring exercise. Perhaps I'd feel differently about the poster if he were married and had to support three children and a mother undergoing chemo for ovarian cancer.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I get that. I'm not banning you or anything. But this thread is designed in part for venting, so you may find it tedious sometimes.

[UnamSanctam]

Weeping and mourning is pretty frequent in the valley of tears. I don't know why you'd expect otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

Nvm again

[Anonymous User]

Federal government hiring is rough. I spent two summers and a semester working at various federal agencies in a particular field, and this week all of them rejected me. I did good work there, had good face time, hung out with the attorneys outside of work, and academically I have honors at a T6, which I thought would culminate into a jerb, but it appears the fates have different ideas for me!

I'm both excited and terrified, but mostly excited now that it appears my "plan" is now out the window.

[zot1]

Federal government hiring is rough. I spent two summers and a semester working at various federal agencies in a particular field, and this week all of them rejected me. I did good work there, had good face time, hung out with the attorneys outside of work, and academically I have honors at a T6, which I thought would culminate into a jerb, but it appears the fates have different ideas for me!

I'm both excited and terrified, but mostly excited now that it appears my "plan" is now out the window.

Did you apply to all the honors programs and they all rejected you or are you still waiting to hear from some?

Did you apply to any clerkships?

[Anonymous User]

Federal government hiring is rough. I spent two summers and a semester working at various federal agencies in a particular field, and this week all of them rejected me. I did good work there, had good face time, hung out with the attorneys outside of work, and academically I have honors at a T6, which I thought would culminate into a jerb, but it appears the fates have different ideas for me!

I'm both excited and terrified, but mostly excited now that it appears my "plan" is now out the window.

Did you apply to all the honors programs and they all rejected you or are you still waiting to hear from some?

Did you apply to any clerkships?

1) Yes. I've had a few screeners, and made it to round two at two places. No rejects yet from anywhere except the two places I've interned at (lol...) Others haven't closed yet so I may get screeners out of those as well. I made it to the second round with an agency I have no substantive experience with, which makes me laugh at how much of a black hole federal hiring is.

2) No. I want to practice immediately out of school. I'd consider a clerkship after two years in one of the honors programs.

I also have two scheduled interviews at some nonprofits. Also applied to some V100 firms hiring 3Ls, but I really don't want to do that unless I have to. I had a CB scheduled at a V10, but cancelled it because I just couldn't bring myself to interview there unless I was really committed.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm not sure clerking after doing 2 years as an honors attorney makes sense - at least, for most of the programs, I understand the idea to be that you will do your 2 years and then be placed into a permanent position. I don't think most agencies have any kind of "we'll hold your slot while you clerk" policy in place, so you'd have to reapply all over again outside of honors programs if you left at that point. If you think you're going to want to make a significant change after the 2 years, I guess that makes sense, but it seems unusual. (But that may just be the circles I've moved in.)

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure clerking after doing 2 years as an honors attorney makes sense - at least, for most of the programs, I understand the idea to be that you will do your 2 years and then be placed into a permanent position. I don't think most agencies have any kind of "we'll hold your slot while you clerk" policy in place, so you'd have to reapply all over again outside of honors programs if you left at that point. If you think you're going to want to make a significant change after the 2 years, I guess that makes sense, but it seems unusual. (But that may just be the circles I've moved in.)

Right now I'm 99% certain that I don't want to clerk, so it's not a big issue, haha.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No problem, then. Nothing says everyone has to clerk!

[zot1]

Federal government hiring is rough. I spent two summers and a semester working at various federal agencies in a particular field, and this week all of them rejected me. I did good work there, had good face time, hung out with the attorneys outside of work, and academically I have honors at a T6, which I thought would culminate into a jerb, but it appears the fates have different ideas for me!

I'm both excited and terrified, but mostly excited now that it appears my "plan" is now out the window.

Did you apply to all the honors programs and they all rejected you or are you still waiting to hear from some?

Did you apply to any clerkships?

1) Yes. I've had a few screeners, and made it to round two at two places. No rejects yet from anywhere except the two places I've interned at (lol...) Others haven't closed yet so I may get screeners out of those as well. I made it to the second round with an agency I have no substantive experience with, which makes me laugh at how much of a black hole federal hiring is.

2) No. I want to practice immediately out of school. I'd consider a clerkship after two years in one of the honors programs.

I also have two scheduled interviews at some nonprofits. Also applied to some V100 firms hiring 3Ls, but I really don't want to do that unless I have to. I had a CB scheduled at a V10, but cancelled it because I just couldn't bring myself to interview there unless I was really committed.

Well, don't give up just yet. I didn't get my offer until just a few days before spring finals. Was it a hectic spring? Sure, but it worked out and I'm super happy with my job now.

If you want to discuss more in depth stuff (I went through this awful process myself last year), feel free to PM.

And don't worry about rejections. I know it's hard to see that way, but I'm happy I got rejected by many places. And trust me, they were many.

And yeah, don't clerk if you don't wanna. It's prestigious and whatnot but not for everybody.

[Anonymous User]

I wonder why so many government jobs don't do any sort of entry-level hiring that doesn't require bar admissions. Do they think law students can afford to just chill until October following graduation?