Michigan 2014 OCI Thread!!!!!!! Forum

[mvp99]

Well it's true, when students in the top 1/3 to top 1/4 are striking out left and right even after biding mostly NYC (not to mention median students) after our grade increase and reduced class size it's pretty sad.

Please. Lets remember that these top 1/4 students will (probably) get jobs. The question is when.

[Anonymous User]

If a top 1/4 student strikes out, that is their fault. They are doing something wrong.

I am bottom 1/4 and just accepted a V50 in a major market. I know of others w/ similar grades who have solid offers as well.

EDIT: As I am reading this, it came out in a much shittier way than I was going for. My apologies. If you are top 1/4 and struck out, you should be mass mailing to every market you have any connection to. You will get something. You have amazing grades at an amazing school. Don't give up because OCI didn't work out. There are plenty of current 3Ls who struck out at OCI but kept the hustle alive and landed something.

[OfThriceandTen]

If a top 1/4 student strikes out, that is their fault. They are doing something wrong.

I am bottom 1/4 and just accepted a V50 in a major market. I know of others w/ similar grades who have solid offers as well.

Congrats on your success. Let's remember not to phrase things in an antagonistic way. What you likely meant was that if a top 1/4 student strikes out, their grades did not carry them as far as many people expect. Legal hiring is a weird beast, and the vast majority of most students' success comes during a really strange, 4-day marathon of interviews. There's a ton of reasons why someone could fail to convert screeners to callbacks that cannot be said to be "their fault." Obviously, those with no offers know that they have to scramble and/or change things around now. What we should be doing is offering our classmates advice and support, not use anonymous handles to blame them for how their "failures" reflect on the school.

In that vein, I'm not sure how much I can help anyone ITT, but if you need someone to vent to, feel free to PM. I went through this process last year and know how trying and isolating it can feel.

[Anonymous User]

If a top 1/4 student strikes out, that is their fault. They are doing something wrong.

I am bottom 1/4 and just accepted a V50 in a major market. I know of others w/ similar grades who have solid offers as well.

Had I fit your top 1/4 but no offer scenario, reading what you wrote would have made me feel even worse.
UoM is known for being collegial, let's not forget the Michigan difference and let's be supportive and considerate of our classmates who many not be as lucky.
No reason to gloat how you got an offer with such bad grades.

[scaliaantics]

Earlier we outed our classmates because we didn't like their behavior. Now we're being douches to the people that struck out. This school fucking sucks.

[mvp99]

Earlier we outed our classmates because we didn't like their behavior. Now we're being douches to the people that struck out. This school fucking sucks.

Calm down. Dean Z is not perfect.

[scaliaantics]

Earlier we outed our classmates because we didn't like their behavior. Now we're being douches to the people that struck out. This school fucking sucks.

Calm down. Dean Z is not perfect.

Yeah she's not close to it. This thread is evidence of that.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, things seem to have gone well for the class a whole. Which makes it so crappy for the ones that did strike out like me. Decent grades (don't know ranks, 3.55), NY, 27 screeners, only 3 callbacks. Got one rejection already, the other 2 have not replied to me yet, but it's been more than a week. I am guessing those are rejections. I think I really fucking suck at interviews.

Which brings me to the more general point. Anyone have any idea/advice on what am I supposed to do? I did mail a little before OCI, but a combination of personal matters did not allow me much time and more mailing. Nothing from those firms as well. I am still mailing, but I have really low expectations. I don't have any ties to secondaries, still mailing those, but don't think I will get anything.

I don't want to drop out, because I am one of those few crazy people that actually wants to be a lawyer. But I have no earthly idea what I am supposed to do now.

Wow... 3.55 and only 3 CBs? Did you only bid for DC or something?

No, NYC. Which is why things like "NYC is an easy market" make me want to stab myself.

You should be in the running for government positions. That would be a great route if you want to do litigation, since BigLaw likes to hire former prosecutors.
Also, have you tried contacting partner alums at BigLaw and mid/small firms? Frankly, I didn't even attempt this myself since my grades are really meh, but you're probably close to top 1/3, which is a different story.

[Anonymous User]

Earlier we outed our classmates because we didn't like their behavior. Now we're being douches to the people that struck out. This school fucking sucks.

Calm down. Dean Z is not perfect.

Yeah she's not close to it. This thread is evidence of that.

Well it's true, when students in the top 1/3 to top 1/4 are striking out left and right even after biding mostly NYC (not to mention median students) after our grade increase and reduced class size it's pretty sad.

Please. Lets remember that these top 1/4 students will (probably) get jobs. The question is when.

A couple of thoughts:

1. We shouldn't be blaming people for not getting a job. Shit happens, even if you are top 1/4 or whatever. That being said, I do wonder if people in the top 1/4 who struck out did everything to maximize their chances (bid conservatively if k-jd, connect w/ people over the summer, practice interview if they know they were bad at it, research firms, etc.). Some probably did, some did not.

2. Top 1/4 students are not striking out "left and right." That's an absurd statement. Top 1/3 to 1/4 would be 3.6 and above, most likely. There are a handful, I think less, students who have posted on here that they have those stats and are without an offer. I haven't talked to anyone in-person who fits that profile. We are talking about less than 5% of the student body (if that) that was top 1/3 to 1/4 and still lacks a callback.

3. Stop with the negativity. If you don't have an offer yet, I'm sorry. That really does sucks. But this is a public forum. The majority of our class has done well. We have someone who finally broke the Wachtell curse for f'ing sake. If you don't have an offer, I understand fretting about it, but don't make up absurd statistics and/or facts about how OCI went for the class as a whole. 1Ls and prospective students read this, and that does nothing for your fellow Wolverines, or yourself, in the future.

[mvp99]

Earlier we outed our classmates because we didn't like their behavior. Now we're being douches to the people that struck out. This school fucking sucks.

Calm down. Dean Z is not perfect.

Yeah she's not close to it. This thread is evidence of that.

Well it's true, when students in the top 1/3 to top 1/4 are striking out left and right even after biding mostly NYC (not to mention median students) after our grade increase and reduced class size it's pretty sad.

Please. Lets remember that these top 1/4 students will (probably) get jobs. The question is when.

A couple of thoughts:

1. We shouldn't be blaming people for not getting a job. Shit happens, even if you are top 1/4 or whatever. That being said, I do wonder if people in the top 1/4 who struck out did everything to maximize their chances (bid conservatively if k-jd, connect w/ people over the summer, practice interview if they know they were bad at it, research firms, etc.). Some probably did, some did not.

2. Top 1/4 students are not striking out "left and right." That's an absurd statement. Top 1/3 to 1/4 would be 3.6 and above, most likely. There are a handful, I think less, students who have posted on here that they have those stats and are without an offer. I haven't talked to anyone in-person who fits that profile. We are talking about less than 5% of the student body (if that) that was top 1/3 to 1/4 and still lacks a callback.

3. Stop with the negativity. If you don't have an offer yet, I'm sorry. That really does sucks. But this is a public forum. The majority of our class has done well. We have someone who finally broke the Wachtell curse for f'ing sake. If you don't have an offer, I understand fretting about it, but don't make up absurd statistics and/or facts about how OCI went for the class as a whole. 1Ls and prospective students read this, and that does nothing for your fellow Wolverines, or yourself, in the future.

"Although Wachtell Lipton has no explicit billable hour requirements, expectations reportedly hover around the 2700 mark depending on deal volume, and billing 3000 hours in a year is not uncommon."

Good luck to the brave person that's going to WLRK.

[Anonymous User]

Who gives a crap about rankings? I am one of those with 3.5 who struck out in NY. And I am sure it would not have made much of a difference if Michigan was ranked 9th, or 10th, or 11th, or even 13th. It's a great law school, and puts you in a good pole position. I did not want to spend three years in Durham, but I love AA. To each their own.

And that post above how it is all my fault definitely was a cherry on top of my 5 rejection letters sundae. This whole thing is fucking random. OCP managed to get feedback from one of my callbacks that rejected me. Apparently, there is no reason for it. The interviewers gave no negative comments about me. I can't fix anything. Two of them recommended me for a job, two did not. Those two apparently just felt that others were better candidates. And I am pretty sure who they were. One of them, I am guessing, was a last minute substitute that I got. He did not seem in the mood to interview me at all. And I knew nothing about him, so was out of my comfort zone. Talk about luck.

[Anonymous User]

Yea. Think about how easily you could have been the one without any offers. Just be considerate.

[Anonymous User]

3. Stop with the negativity. If you don't have an offer yet, I'm sorry. That really does sucks. But this is a public forum. The majority of our class has done well. We have someone who finally broke the Wachtell curse for f'ing sake. If you don't have an offer, I understand fretting about it, but don't make up absurd statistics and/or facts about how OCI went for the class as a whole. 1Ls and prospective students read this, and that does nothing for your fellow Wolverines, or yourself, in the future.

Someone broke the Wachtell curse?! Did not know that. Now I have to start investigating and try to figure it out.

[Anonymous User]

It is still early to think that anyone struck out. I just received a callback invitation today. Firms are still looking!!!

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Was just about to say this. People who were pleasantly surprised (as in, 3.2-3.4 going to V10) don't post on here for obvious reasons (would likely be outed), but rest assured there are plenty. There are outliers in both directions, and offering blanket statements about the state of Michigan's brand based on a couple performances either way is ridiculous. I feel for those for whom OCI did not work out, but come on.

[scaliaantics]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

I was not referring to the class as a whole--I think my post was pretty clear on that. I was referring to the % of individuals who may be without an offer who have around a 3.5 GPA. Of course people with worse grades are striking out at higher rates. That's to be expected at any school, including Michigan. My point was I don't think people with 3.5 are striking out "left and right" or that it is a "common" occurrence.

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

Thank you that was exactly my point, not saying michigan is in a bad place or anything but there's a very real chance if you have above median grades you will strike out even 3.5+. I would say 3.7+ is great shape obviously. And median is hit or miss depending on soft factors

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Was just about to say this. People who were pleasantly surprised (as in, 3.2-3.4 going to V10) don't post on here for obvious reasons (would likely be outed), but rest assured there are plenty. There are outliers in both directions, and offering blanket statements about the state of Michigan's brand based on a couple performances either way is ridiculous. I feel for those for whom OCI did not work out, but come on.

Wait, did you just say there are plenty of 3.2-3.4 students who go to V10 firms? Yo have a really low threshold for plenty.

Look, shit is bad. If you're a 2L you really don't know a damn thing right now. We didn't either. Learning about the class as a whole takes a lot longer than the flurry of OCI. And shit is not good. The people who strike out generally aren't going to broadcast that. A lot of people who get offers are getting 1 offer from small or mid firms that no offer at a really terrible rate. I didn't see it either this time my 2L year.

[Anonymous User]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

From the people I have spoken to, it seems like only about 5-10% struck out. We all have different anecdotal evidence, and debating whose is more representative won't get anybody anywhere. You are flying in the face of logic, though, if you think this class did worse than the previous one when it has 1) fewer students, and 2) a higher grading curve, of which many employers were not aware.

[scaliaantics]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

I was not referring to the class as a whole--I think my post was pretty clear on that. I was referring to the % of individuals who may be without an offer who have around a 3.5 GPA. Of course people with worse grades are striking out at higher rates. That's to be expected at any school, including Michigan. My point was I don't think people with 3.5 are striking out "left and right" or that it is a "common" occurrence.

Even if you're not referring to the class as a whole, which I disagree with you regarding what your post was referring to, posts like this miss the point. The initial discussion was about giving information to future students. Future students dont know what their gpa is going to be and it is impossible of them to predict where they are going to stand. Posts like yours give off the false impression, using pretty bad assumptions, that things are pretty great. But even in the worst of all situations (using really bad analysis), at least 1 out of 5 people are striking out. But since we know that reality and the worst case scenario aren't the same, I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by ranting against people who are reporting negative information. Things aren't pretty here, and its not okay to pretend that they are so we all feel better.

[Anonymous User]

We will see what the #s are when they come out, but I think a few of you here are vastly underestimating how well most of the class did. If there are 3.5 people without jobs there at least as many individuals with that GPA with 3+ offers. Also a number of people with near median grades and offers at V10s.

Again, if you didn't do well, that sucks. I do feel bad for you. But some of you are really grasping at straws right now with some of the claims you're making.

[scaliaantics]

I love michigan as much as everyone else, but I think it is worth noting to future michigan students and current 1Ls that it's not uncommon for students with 3.5+S to be striking out even when bidding New York. I wish someone had told me and not kept up the untrue facade that this market is great and everyone is doing well.

Where are you getting this from?!? "Not uncommon" for students with a 3.5 to be striking out in NYC? Again, approx. 5 people have posted on here w/ around a 3.5 that they are w/o an offer right now. That's less than 2% of the Michigan student body. I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole.

Wait are you seriously this fucking bad at math? If a 3.5 is top 25% (which isn't an overly ambitious estimate), then 5% of the top 25% of the student body is striking out with stellar grades. If we assume that is constant across all GPA levels, that means 20% of the entire class is striking out. But of course, we know the lower your GPA, the higher your chance of striking out. So I want you to just stop and think about what you're saying.

You said "I find it both unfortunate and annoying that people who, may or may not have had bad luck themselves/in their group of friends, are claiming to speak for the class as a whole."

Assuming no diminishing returns, 20% of your classmates appear to have struck out. But we know that its more. I don't have the ability to accurately predict how that number changes across different GPA ranges, but since we all know that its worse the lower you go, maybe you should stop preaching the idea that everything is fucking green and rosy. People everywhere are striking out, and its not necessarily because they have aspergers or are bad interviewers. Nobody is speaking for the class as a whole, but if even 40% of the class struck out (which seems likely from the people I've spoken to), this is not good news.

From the people I have spoken to, it seems like only about 5-10% struck out. We all have different anecdotal evidence, and debating whose is more representative won't get anybody anywhere. You are flying in the face of logic, though, if you think this class did worse than the previous one when it has 1) fewer students, and 2) a higher grading curve, of which many employers were not aware.

I never said you guys did worse than my class. But I never said my class did well. You're assuming we did decently and you guys did well. Neither of those assumptions are necessarily true.