2021 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

999. Cadwalader

For docking base pay of many associates last year.

Wasn't that only for people who billed below 1400 hours or some other low number?

When there's a downturn there's just not enough work for everyone to get hours. Penalizing people for not making hours by docking base pay is functionally equivalent to docking pay for economic downturn. It's okay for us to remember who did that.

1000. Cleary
1001. Goodwin

At least CWT didn't engage in stealth layoffs like Cleary (its headcount is as low as it's been since the Great Recession), Goodwin, and others allegedly did. Honestly, much better to keep people on at a reduced salary than to fire them. And we all know that firms aren't charities and when things were slow a lot more firms than have been discussed here let people go rather than wait for things to pick back up, which is just one more reason besides attrition why firms are so fucked on headcount now.

Probably explains the absolute subpar work that my group has seen this year working across from Cleary in an otherwise significant practice for their firm. Can’t blame them with the hits to morale and they’ve received I suppose…

[Anonymous User]

2022 Vault Rankings:

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. Cravath

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
4. STB/Willkie/Cooley
5. K&E + any other firm with variable bonuses above market
6. All the firms that match
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. S&C (for fucking over their summers last year)
52. Cravath

lol wut

[Anonymous User]

Wow there is alot of crying in the thread.

[mtf612]

I wonder if we see a bonus raise tomorrow in the very late afternoon so that Cravath et. al. effectively won't be able to match until Monday, giving the raising firm a few days of good coverage (albeit during a holiday weekend)...

[Anonymous User]

Wow there is alot of crying in the thread.

That’s what I’m going to say in Jan when partners are all bummed that everyone quit.

[Anonymous User]

2022 Vault Rankings:

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. Cravath

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
4. STB/Willkie/Cooley
5. K&E + any other firm with variable bonuses above market
6. All the firms that match
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. S&C (for fucking over their summers last year)
52. Cravath

lol wut

lol I'm the anon who made the semi-joking rankings you're replying to. I threw STB, Willkie, and Cooley on there because I seem to remember them being either first movers or increasers in recent years when it came to salaries and/or bonuses (even just COVID bonuses). Not to the degree of DPW/Milbank but still noteworthy. That kind of initiative gets them credit over K&E (who only ever matches, but does at least get credit for above-market bonuses and dumping giant fucking shipping containers of cash all over the lateral market), followed by all the other dutiful matchers.

My opinions of the actual quality of all these firms may differ, just thinking how they should be rewarded/punished on Vault.

[Anonymous User]

2022 Vault Rankings:

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. Cravath

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
4. STB/Willkie/Cooley
5. K&E + any other firm with variable bonuses above market
6. All the firms that match
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. S&C (for fucking over their summers last year)
52. Cravath

lol wut

lol I'm the anon who made the semi-joking rankings you're replying to. I threw STB, Willkie, and Cooley on there because I seem to remember them being either first movers or increasers in recent years when it came to salaries and/or bonuses (even just COVID bonuses). Not to the degree of DPW/Milbank but still noteworthy. That kind of initiative gets them credit over K&E (who only ever matches, but does at least get credit for above-market bonuses and dumping giant fucking shipping containers of cash all over the lateral market), followed by all the other dutiful matchers.

My opinions of the actual quality of all these firms may differ, just thinking how they should be rewarded/punished on Vault.

No one gets credit for speed of announcement, it's expected you're paying before year-end. Only thing that matters is how much. If you'd rather get paid less by a market-matcher and hear the news sooner, have fun, I'd prefer to get paid more by the market-toppers and get paid on the same timeline.

[almostperfectt]

Wow there is alot of crying in the thread.

Brave anon. Mods can you out this person who apparently doesn't like money?

[Anonymous User]

Wow there is alot of crying in the thread.

That’s what I’m going to say in Jan when partners are all bummed that everyone quit.

+1. A ton of mid/senior level associates will have been able to pay off their debt/build up a nest egg much faster than anticipated given the special bonuses this past year. Those same people have had record-high attrition among peers and record-high hours this past year and have seen their firms post record-high profits over the same period. They are ready to leave. If firms are willing to pay another firmwide special bonus in early- or mid-2022 then they need to announce it NOW. If not, those same folks are going to take their money, start their in-house interviews NOW knowing that nothing is on the horizon, and be fully prepared to l e a v e once the EOY bonus hits their accounts.

[Anonymous User]

2022 Vault Rankings:

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. Cravath

1. Wachtell
2. DPW
3. Milbank
4. STB/Willkie/Cooley
5. K&E + any other firm with variable bonuses above market
6. All the firms that match
....
50. Mintz Levin
51. S&C (for fucking over their summers last year)
52. Cravath

lol wut

lol I'm the anon who made the semi-joking rankings you're replying to. I threw STB, Willkie, and Cooley on there because I seem to remember them being either first movers or increasers in recent years when it came to salaries and/or bonuses (even just COVID bonuses). Not to the degree of DPW/Milbank but still noteworthy. That kind of initiative gets them credit over K&E (who only ever matches, but does at least get credit for above-market bonuses and dumping giant fucking shipping containers of cash all over the lateral market), followed by all the other dutiful matchers.

My opinions of the actual quality of all these firms may differ, just thinking how they should be rewarded/punished on Vault.

No one gets credit for speed of announcement, it's expected you're paying before year-end. Only thing that matters is how much. If you'd rather get paid less by a market-matcher and hear the news sooner, have fun, I'd prefer to get paid more by the market-toppers and get paid on the same timeline.

I don't know, I think they should get some credit for pushing the market. We should try to reward firms that do that when we can.

[Anonymous User]

No one gets credit for speed of announcement, it's expected you're paying before year-end. Only thing that matters is how much. If you'd rather get paid less by a market-matcher and hear the news sooner, have fun, I'd prefer to get paid more by the market-toppers and get paid on the same timeline.

There's something to be said for the DPW's of the world not letting little-old Cooley set the new market scale after years of stagnation. So if Cooley previously came in at +25%, and DPW was originally contemplated coming in at +25%, Cooley's actions may have forced DPW to +30%. Thus Cooley deserves credit for moving first.

Cravath would usually receive some credit for being a first mover except their increase is so paltry it may as well be in line with Baker McKenzie matching the prior years bonus before being blown out of the water by DPW et al -- i.e. attempting to sandbag the market. The Baker, Cravath's of the world are the worst of the worst -- just trying to keep us working class lawyers down.

[thisismytlsuername]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

Except different economic conditions mean different effects on associate attrition. The same it always has been? Wtf does that even mean, it changes from financial crisis to boom time cycles. My firm is already turning down deals because we can’t staff. I’m at a V5. Real attrition unlike the past is already happening and it can get worse.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

Except different economic conditions mean different effects on associate attrition. The same it always has been? Wtf does that even mean, it changes from financial crisis to boom time cycles. My firm is already turning down deals because we can’t staff. I’m at a V5. Real attrition unlike the past is already happening and it can get worse.

Second this. My firm is turning down really solid work constantly. Quite a few partners have told me it angers them but they are in the midst of a staffing crisis and don’t have much choice. This feels much different than other cycles—when firms are losing out on work because they don’t have enough bodies it’s a bit different than the normal/designed purge of 4th year and up.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

Except different economic conditions mean different effects on associate attrition. The same it always has been? Wtf does that even mean, it changes from financial crisis to boom time cycles. My firm is already turning down deals because we can’t staff. I’m at a V5. Real attrition unlike the past is already happening and it can get worse.

Co-signing, at a V5 and attrition is the worst anyone has ever seen it here. I mean, we're hiring 3Ls for temp work because we are literally out of warm bodies to staff on deals.

Half the reason I'm contacting recruiters is that I already billed close to 3000 this year, and I don't want to be stuck holding the bag next year picking up the slack for everyone that I know is already on their way out.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

Except different economic conditions mean different effects on associate attrition. The same it always has been? Wtf does that even mean, it changes from financial crisis to boom time cycles. My firm is already turning down deals because we can’t staff. I’m at a V5. Real attrition unlike the past is already happening and it can get worse.

Co-signing, at a V5 and attrition is the worst anyone has ever seen it here. I mean, we're hiring 3Ls for temp work because we are literally out of warm bodies to staff on deals.

Half the reason I'm contacting recruiters is that I already billed close to 3000 this year, and I don't want to be stuck holding the bag next year picking up the slack for everyone that I know is already on their way out.

This plus would love to take a vacation and hard to get away when things are so busy and so leanly staffed it’s impossible to actually unplug because there’s no one there to cover for you.

[glitched]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

There are other options as well. Like straight up leaving the legal field.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

[enibs]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

The demand for laterals this year has been aberrationally high, which has driven the market, including aberrational signing bonuses. Supply and demand works. Will demand stay aberrationally high in 2022? Who knows. But if there is a flood of supply, those looking to lateral or go in house in 2022 will likely face a different market than 2021.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

The demand for laterals this year has been aberrationally high, which has driven the market, including aberrational signing bonuses. Supply and demand works. Will demand stay aberrationally high in 2022? Who knows. But if there is a flood of supply, those looking to lateral or go in house in 2022 will likely face a different market than 2021.

I'm a stub year and even I can tell that it's not just demand, it's supply too. There are no seniors. Every deal I'm on is either me and partners, me a junior and a partner, sometimes counsels. There is a gaping void where there should be seniors.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

The demand for laterals this year has been aberrationally high, which has driven the market, including aberrational signing bonuses. Supply and demand works. Will demand stay aberrationally high in 2022? Who knows. But if there is a flood of supply, those looking to lateral or go in house in 2022 will likely face a different market than 2021.

No. There’s a demand for laterals because of attrition not the other way around. Also we know with good confidence where people we lose are going and a large proportion of them are going in house or just exiting the profession.

[enibs]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

The demand for laterals this year has been aberrationally high, which has driven the market, including aberrational signing bonuses. Supply and demand works. Will demand stay aberrationally high in 2022? Who knows. But if there is a flood of supply, those looking to lateral or go in house in 2022 will likely face a different market than 2021.

No. There’s a demand for laterals because of attrition not the other way around. Also we know with good confidence where people we lose are going and a large proportion of them are going in house or just exiting the profession.

If a large proportion are exiting the profession, that would obviously change the supply/demand equation, but if they’re primarily looking to go in-house, there’s a finite number of in-house positions. And the notion that a large proportion are exiting the profession seems inconsistent with the massive surge in law school applications that we saw in 2021.

[Anonymous User]

If a large proportion are exiting the profession, that would obviously change the supply/demand equation, but if they’re primarily looking to go in-house, there’s a finite number of in-house positions. And the notion that a large proportion are exiting the profession seems inconsistent with the massive surge in law school applications that we saw in 2021.

Not really sure how law school applications being up and mid-level/senior associates leaving the profession would be contradictory? I doubt many people applying to law school know what a 300 hour month feels like.

[Anonymous User]

In house positions are up too! Business is booming for them too, in fact that's why business is booming for us.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that 10,000 corporate lawyers are all going to go in house in January if nobody doubles Cravath. Attrition will stay at the same rate it has always been -- high. Firms will continue to address it the way they always have -- loading work on those remaining, hiring laterals, and increasing the size of their summer class. The world continues turning.

This is a misinformed take. How many
times do you need to hear that we are experiencing unprecedented levels of attrition? I’ve seen the hard numbers. This isn’t the same as before. I’m at a V10.

The demand for laterals this year has been aberrationally high, which has driven the market, including aberrational signing bonuses. Supply and demand works. Will demand stay aberrationally high in 2022? Who knows. But if there is a flood of supply, those looking to lateral or go in house in 2022 will likely face a different market than 2021.

No. There’s a demand for laterals because of attrition not the other way around. Also we know with good confidence where people we lose are going and a large proportion of them are going in house or just exiting the profession.

If a large proportion are exiting the profession, that would obviously change the supply/demand equation, but if they’re primarily looking to go in-house, there’s a finite number of in-house positions. And the notion that a large proportion are exiting the profession seems inconsistent with the massive surge in law school applications that we saw in 2021.

No offense but you are speaking total gibberish. The size of law school apps in 2021 has nothing to do with burnt out midlevels and seniors exiting after billing 2,500 hours for two years in a row through WFH COVID. You seem to want to suggest some contraorthodox explanation for what's going on when plenty of us who have access to actual numbers are telling you that, no, it's exactly what we're saying, attrition is at an unprecedented level and it's fucking up staffing and ability to bring in cases. Give it a rest.