Summer Associates 2014: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[jd20132013]

Someone made a comment like this in my presence and I didn't report him despite the awkward silence following.

Not sure if anyone else did.

a comment like what?

and don't say "i can't say, i'm worry about being outed" because a) these jokes are made all of the time and b) you're anon

I honestly don't remember, it wasn't a big deal to me and, like the person that said it, I had a few in me.

Can't say your tone is helping to jog my memory, though.

this is classic lawstudent lawyer passive aggression

can't wait for this to be my life for 16 hrs a day

[Druid]

Someone made a comment like this in my presence and I didn't report him despite the awkward silence following.

Not sure if anyone else did.

a comment like what?

and don't say "i can't say, i'm worry about being outed" because a) these jokes are made all of the time and b) you're anon

Can't say your tone is helping to jog my memory, though.

Just to be clear, nobody actually cares. But lol at acting like you're significant in any way.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard some really nasty crap during my SA, and unless you used the N or C word (or implied them), I can't see how you should be worried.

[Danger Zone]

So who is ready for this to be over with?

[smaug_]

So who is ready for this to be over with?

This has been one of the best summers of my life, dude. Including childhood. Wish it would never end.

[Danger Zone]

Everything is awesome, I just prefer doing nothing, which is what I do in school

[jbagelboy]

Everything is awesome, I just prefer doing nothing, which is what I do in school

I would keep working for the $$ and experience as many weeks as I could, but yea, I feel you on the "doing shit" point. The past 3-4 weekends have been so busy and active with trips, day drinking, world cup ragers ect that I haven't caught a break to just lay on my sofa & watch epic amounts of tv and tan at my pool. Exhausting.

Of course, EIP in less than four weeks won't be any more relaxing.

[Anonymous User]

So, for you guys in NYC/DC, any idea on when your firm announces offers? Hopefully, there won't be any nasty shocks.

[txdude45]

So, for you guys in NYC/DC, any idea on when your firm announces offers? Hopefully, there won't be any nasty shocks.

I guess ppl working anywhere else can make their way to the Vale of Tears and you won't have a single fuck to give...

[LRGhost]

One thing I've learned is that I cannot tell if someone is speaking to me in a passive-aggressive tone or if there is no undercurrent of criticism. It's hard to explain but I feel like a lot of what I do is done because I have free Lexis access.

Also, few people care about your time, if you're out of town with work, have other work that has to take a priority, or for any reason cannot meet a deadline without working 15+ hours on a variety of matters for a few days. I recognize that it's such a petty thing to complain about since the summer is otherwise great but it's still a drag.

[SA2014]

One thing I've learned is that I cannot tell if someone is speaking to me in a passive-aggressive tone or if there is no undercurrent of criticism. It's hard to explain but I feel like a lot of what I do is done because I have free Lexis access.

Also, few people care about your time, if you're out of town with work, have other work that has to take a priority, or for any reason cannot meet a deadline without working 15+ hours on a variety of matters for a few days. I recognize that it's such a petty thing to complain about since the summer is otherwise great but it's still a drag.

C

[Old Gregg]

Also, few people care about your time, if you're out of town with work, have other work that has to take a priority, or for any reason cannot meet a deadline without working 15+ hours on a variety of matters for a few days.

Depends on how you respond, and this is something you have to learn very early on (though I understand if you're not willing to stand your ground as a summer): You have to learn to say "No, I can't do it by the deadline you want."

There will be times when you already have projects to do by a certain deadline, and someone calls you asking you to do something by a deadline that's incompatible with the first project. Don't mention the first project, hoping that the associate will connect the dots (either they purposefully won't, or they have aspergers, or they just can't connect the dots because they're dumb). Be clear: "I have another project that I am already working on and that I have to complete on a shorter deadline, and I cannot do this by the deadline you're asking for."

Learning how to do this will save your ass both in terms of hours and in terms of the quality of your work (i.e., if you tried doing both projects, you'll just do a shitty job on both).

When I first started working, I was asked to do a ton of projects at ridiculous hours and with incompatibilities with my other projects and their deadlines. I frequently mentioned these facts, but was met with silence (i.e., "so... you're still going to do it, right?"). When I bitched about it to my fellow classmates, I'd just hear incredulity that I didn't just say "no." When I finally had the balls to tell an associate that I just can't do it, he said "oh don't worry about it. I'll handle it." And since then, it's been fine (even under the most demanding senior associates, no less).

And if an associate can't take that response, and you've informed him or her that you won't make the deadline, your ass is covered. If the associate complains to the partner, 7 times out of 10, the associate will look like a person who can't lead a project. Just looks bad on that person. 3 times out of 10 it could end up reflecting bad on you, in which case work for a different partner or you chose the wrong law firm and start thinking about looking for another job (and I know that sounds harsh, but really you'll be thanking yourself in the long run).

[redsox550]

Everything is awesome, I just prefer doing nothing, which is what I do in school

amen brother

[SA2014]

Anyone here registered for the August MPRE?

[LRGhost]

One thing I've learned is that I cannot tell if someone is speaking to me in a passive-aggressive tone or if there is no undercurrent of criticism. It's hard to explain but I feel like a lot of what I do is done because I have free Lexis access.

Also, few people care about your time, if you're out of town with work, have other work that has to take a priority, or for any reason cannot meet a deadline without working 15+ hours on a variety of matters for a few days. I recognize that it's such a petty thing to complain about since the summer is otherwise great but it's still a drag.

Careful. this could be mis-interpreted as bitching. A lot fo ppl on the Vale of Tears would love to take your place and deal with the "drag" of being unindated by requests.

I would never complain about it in real life outside of talking to a couple friends and even in that context, it's all relative. I went from just over minimum wage, demeaning work to an SA salary in like, a year and a half. I can't be anything but grateful. But that doesn't mean parts of it aren't difficult to navigate.

Depends on how you respond, and this is something you have to learn very early on (though I understand if you're not willing to stand your ground as a summer): You have to learn to say "No, I can't do it by the deadline you want."

...in which case work for a different partner or you chose the wrong law firm and start thinking about looking for another job (and I know that sounds harsh, but really you'll be thanking yourself in the long run).

The handful of times I haven't had the time to get something back when requested, normally a quick turnaround when I had something else due at the same time/before, I've been good about expressing that and associates understand since they're often in that position and don't know what you're up to (and figure throwing you work is nice for everyone involved). But it's the latter point you make that scares me.

What happens if I'm in a relatively small practice group and that happens? Most of the work is going to come from a few people and your reputation is sort of shot for a while. I know evaluating this is a case by case basis and some people won't really be upset outside of that day or week, but it's something that's hard to work with because it is subject to so many variables. If the senior associate in that group thinks poorly of you, do you up and look for a new group if things aren't going well in a reasonable amount of time? Is that even possible or feasible? What if you enjoy your group and the work outside of that one interaction? It seems like you can lose so much based on an outlier.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Old Gregg]

What happens if I'm in a relatively small practice group and that happens? Most of the work is going to come from a few people and your reputation is sort of shot for a while. I know evaluating this is a case by case basis and some people won't really be upset outside of that day or week, but it's something that's hard to work with because it is subject to so many variables. If the senior associate in that group thinks poorly of you, do you up and look for a new group if things aren't going well in a reasonable amount of time? Is that even possible or feasible? What if you enjoy your group and the work outside of that one interaction? It seems like you can lose so much based on an outlier.

Just protect yourself and don't be afraid to stand up for yourself in front of others. If associate is being a dick to you, especially over email, don't be afraid to CC the partner on the matter on your (what should be polite and professional) response. If your position is objectively reasonable,odds are that that one bad apple is known throughout the group and your reputation won't be harmed.

But my biggest takeaway is--You won't get a shitty reputation, even in a small group, for being overworked and saying no to more work or trying to manage expectations because of your already difficult workload. You will get a shitty reputation trying to accommodate every single request, being a general pushover, and as a result handing in less than great work product.

At the end of the day, your advancement at a firm depends almost entirely on whether people can trust you to manage and do things. If you do a shitty job, that influences that judgment. If you do a ton of work instead of a metric ASS ton of work, that doesn't really influence things as much.

If you're focusing on yourself, focus on learning and becoming good at what you do. If you find that the amount of work you're taking on is preventing you from doing that, no reasonable person will fault you for saying no for that reason.

[LRGhost]

At the end of the day, your advancement at a firm depends almost entirely on whether people can trust you to manage and do things. If you do a shitty job, that influences that judgment. If you do a ton of work instead of a metric ASS ton of work, that doesn't really influence things as much.

If you're focusing on yourself, focus on learning and becoming good at what you do. If you find that the amount of work you're taking on is preventing you from doing that, no reasonable person will fault you for saying no for that reason.

Thank you. This was my general impression and it's comforting to hear it from someone else.

[Old Gregg]

Half of what makes biglaw miserable is people not standing up for themselves in situations that are almost always reasonable for them to stand up for themselves on.

Even that really nice illustrated biglaw departure memo on ATL that was posted today... a lot of misery could be avoided by being clear. You don't even have to be stern or rude. Just be clear, polite and professional. I feel like a lot of biglaw shitty relationships are based on people either (a) being passive aggressive, (b) too afraid to complete a thought or (c) too absent minded to complete a thought.

[LRGhost]

Half of what makes biglaw miserable is people not standing up for themselves in situations that are almost always reasonable for them to stand up for themselves on.

Even that really nice illustrated biglaw departure memo on ATL that was posted today... a lot of misery could be avoided by being clear. You don't even have to be stern or rude. Just be clear, polite and professional. I feel like a lot of biglaw shitty relationships are based on people either (a) being passive aggressive, (b) too afraid to complete a thought or (c) too absent minded to complete a thought.

Obviously I'm not working in it yet but I have a friend that had a similar experience to that associate. He explained it as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. He was in a very small group and primarily worked with one partner who didn't like him. Moving wasn't really possible. As so often happens, the job ran its course. I'm not sure that in his situation, he could say "No" or request a new group once it became clear that he was completely and utterly fucked.

I would imagine that in a lot of situations, people are people and expressing yourself isn't a bad thing. The idea that partners and senior associates are lifeless soul-suckers who just want you to bill bill bill is, I think, wrong. But I would also imagine that there are plenty of situations that are beyond your control. At the same time, I don't know that it's worth worrying about that outside of trying to identify them early on while they are still salvageable.

[09042014]

Half of what makes biglaw miserable is people not standing up for themselves in situations that are almost always reasonable for them to stand up for themselves on.

Even that really nice illustrated biglaw departure memo on ATL that was posted today... a lot of misery could be avoided by being clear. You don't even have to be stern or rude. Just be clear, polite and professional. I feel like a lot of biglaw shitty relationships are based on people either (a) being passive aggressive, (b) too afraid to complete a thought or (c) too absent minded to complete a thought.

Obviously I'm not working in it yet but I have a friend that had a similar experience to that associate. He explained it as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. He was in a very small group and primarily worked with one partner who didn't like him. Moving wasn't really possible. As so often happens, the job ran its course. I'm not sure that in his situation, he could say "No" or request a new group once it became clear that he was completely and utterly fucked.

I would imagine that in a lot of situations, people are people and expressing yourself isn't a bad thing. The idea that partners and senior associates are lifeless soul-suckers who just want you to bill bill bill is, I think, wrong. But I would also imagine that there are plenty of situations that are beyond your control. At the same time, I don't know that it's worth worrying about that outside of trying to identify them early on while they are still salvageable.

Even in places without a free market, you gotta be able to say "I can't get it done by then." Because like Zweit said, you are just going to spew out two shitty sets of work product.

I know people are afraid they'll get fired, but you probably aren't. And if you did, that guy was going to destroy your life anyway.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard of first half offers going out in Houston?

[SA2014]

Anyone heard of first half offers going out in Houston?

Whoa.....Offers go out that early? based on 5 weeks?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard of first half offers going out in Houston?

Whoa.....Offers go out that early? based on 5 weeks?

SA's start around May 19 at several firms. Each half is usually 6 weeks long.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard of first half offers going out in Houston?

Whoa.....Offers go out that early? based on 5 weeks?

5 weeks? I'm about to finish up week 9 at my firm...