Penn OCI Forum

[PennBull]

So what is the safety not?

I don't have concrete numbers but just from talking to people it sounds like a decent percentage did not get anything through OCI this year. So how does Penn show 96% employed at graduation? When does everyone get jobs between now and grad?

There are countless legal jobs outside of just law firms. Being a Penn student is certainly good enough to get you something by mailing and contacting places all over the country. Read what OutCold posted above and refer to the TLS Employment Forum in general for tips.

Thanks for the advice, even though it left me even a little more depressed on this beautiful sunny day in Philadelphia. Tons of debt + coming to law school because I wanted to work in biglaw, kind of sucks as you see your dreams get flushed away.

Well that's a totally different analysis you have to do for yourself. Whether it's worth the debt is just a different thing entirely. No fellow student can give you advice on that.

[Anonymous User]

So what is the safety not?

I don't have concrete numbers but just from talking to people it sounds like a decent percentage did not get anything through OCI this year. So how does Penn show 96% employed at graduation? When does everyone get jobs between now and grad?

There are countless legal jobs outside of just law firms. Being a Penn student is certainly good enough to get you something by mailing and contacting places all over the country. Read what OutCold posted above and refer to the TLS Employment Forum in general for tips.

Thanks for the advice, even though it left me even a little more depressed on this beautiful sunny day in Philadelphia. Tons of debt + coming to law school because I wanted to work in biglaw, kind of sucks as you see your dreams get flushed away.

Well that's a totally different analysis you have to do for yourself. Whether it's worth the debt is just a different thing entirely. No fellow student can give you advice on that.

Ya I know, I turned down a free ride at a T20, because of Penn's big law placement. Life is funny.

[Anonymous User]

T20 2L here.

Why is the Penn OCI thread so much more depressing than the other threads? I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't have worse employment numbers than its comparably ranked peers. I think most of you will be fine.

I think, because Penn has over the last few years had the best biglaw hiring numbers of all law schools (or, if not, then right there), we didn't think it would happen to us, and as a result we are pretty upset. I also get the sense that our career office is particularly bad, which stokes the fire a little bit since we feel like this thread is pretty much the only place we can go.

+1.

All 1l all we heard about was the amazing placement that Penn has in big law. Every 2l seemed to have jobs. Obv they all didn't but the ones CPP paraded in front of us had jobs. We obv knew there was a chance of not getting a job, but it didn't see it happening to us. Also career services is terrible, I know everyone says that about their school's career office, but ours does seem extra incompetant and honestly they don't seem to care too much.


Plus I think there is decent percentage that didn't get biglaw this year.

Yeah, honestly I think its just the combination of Penn doing great with biglaw the last few years, went here in part because of that, and then this year being worse and screwing over a lot of us who had planned on biglaw. Just hard not to be a bit bitter.

Anyway I haven't been on here much the last 2-3 weeks, but I'm still struggling to find anything. Have an interview with a PI place (unpaid), but thats it. At least I have enough PI stuff on my resume that I can reasonably say "yeah, I always wanted to go to law school for PI work!" so who knows. At this point, the stress of job searching and finals approaching is just killing me.

[Anonymous User]

T20 2L here.

Why is the Penn OCI thread so much more depressing than the other threads? I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't have worse employment numbers than its comparably ranked peers. I think most of you will be fine.

I think, because Penn has over the last few years had the best biglaw hiring numbers of all law schools (or, if not, then right there), we didn't think it would happen to us, and as a result we are pretty upset. I also get the sense that our career office is particularly bad, which stokes the fire a little bit since we feel like this thread is pretty much the only place we can go.

+1.

All 1l all we heard about was the amazing placement that Penn has in big law. Every 2l seemed to have jobs. Obv they all didn't but the ones CPP paraded in front of us had jobs. We obv knew there was a chance of not getting a job, but it didn't see it happening to us. Also career services is terrible, I know everyone says that about their school's career office, but ours does seem extra incompetant and honestly they don't seem to care too much.


Plus I think there is decent percentage that didn't get biglaw this year.

Yeah, honestly I think its just the combination of Penn doing great with biglaw the last few years, went here in part because of that, and then this year being worse and screwing over a lot of us who had planned on biglaw. Just hard not to be a bit bitter.

Anyway I haven't been on here much the last 2-3 weeks, but I'm still struggling to find anything. Have an interview with a PI place (unpaid), but thats it. At least I have enough PI stuff on my resume that I can reasonably say "yeah, I always wanted to go to law school for PI work!" so who knows. At this point, the stress of job searching and finals approaching is just killing me.

+1. Then you see your friends and classmates all relaxed and laughing and not really caring, while we have to hustle our ass off finding jobs and studying for finals! And we must get As! (But no pressure). I know I had better grades then a lot of those with jobs - this hiring process in so unfair and arbitrary.

[WhirledWorld]

[Y]ou see your friends and classmates all relaxed and laughing and not really caring, while we have to hustle our ass off finding jobs and studying for finals! And we must get As! (But no pressure). I know I had better grades then a lot of those with jobs - this hiring process in so unfair and arbitrary.

That actually works to your advantage. Many (not all, buy many) people find the 2L curves to be a lot more generous.

Especially at Penn, where OCI placement is so good, people start to think of OCI as the only route to a successful career. It's not. It's just the easiest route to Biglaw. Striking out at OCI just means you'll have to get more creative--apply to smaller firms that might not be listed on NALP, apply to in-house departments, etc.

In a way, missing OCI can be a blessing in disguise because it makes you focus on your long-term career goals rather than punting on the question of what you really want to do with your life. Interested in sports? Entrepreneurship? Politics? Being a trial lawyer? Then big law isn't necessarily the right door, even if it's open.

[Anonymous User]

[Y]ou see your friends and classmates all relaxed and laughing and not really caring, while we have to hustle our ass off finding jobs and studying for finals! And we must get As! (But no pressure). I know I had better grades then a lot of those with jobs - this hiring process in so unfair and arbitrary.

That actually works to your advantage. Many (not all, buy many) people find the 2L curves to be a lot more generous.

Especially at Penn, where OCI placement is so good, people start to think of OCI as the only route to a successful career. It's not. It's just the easiest route to Biglaw. Striking out at OCI just means you'll have to get more creative--apply to smaller firms that might not be listed on NALP, apply to in-house departments, etc.

In a way, missing OCI can be a blessing in disguise because it makes you focus on your long-term career goals rather than punting on the question of what you really want to do with your life. Interested in sports? Entrepreneurship? Politics? Being a trial lawyer? Then big law isn't necessarily the right door, even if it's open.

Different anon, but I think part of my problem now thats just keeping me down is that its hard to find out where else to look and apply, you know?

[WhirledWorld]

Different anon, but I think part of my problem now thats just keeping me down is that its hard to find out where else to look and apply, you know?

I hear ya. Apologies if you've already gone through this process, but it might help to list out every metropolitan area to which you have some ties--places you lived/went to school or places your SO lived. Places you've vacationed, etc. If you really want to work at a firm, apply to every firm in the area with targeted cover letters. There are a lot of smaller firms that might be hiring, and sure it's not as easy as finding the contact on NALP, but that just means there's less competition for those jobs.

Reach out to alumni from your college or from Penn in other legal employers that you're interested in. Reach out to in-house folks/government/PI stuff if you're interested in that line of work.

And don't stress if you don't have something lined up. A lot of summer internships don't start hiring until much later.

[Anonymous User]

[Y]ou see your friends and classmates all relaxed and laughing and not really caring, while we have to hustle our ass off finding jobs and studying for finals! And we must get As! (But no pressure). I know I had better grades then a lot of those with jobs - this hiring process in so unfair and arbitrary.

That actually works to your advantage. Many (not all, buy many) people find the 2L curves to be a lot more generous.

Especially at Penn, where OCI placement is so good, people start to think of OCI as the only route to a successful career. It's not. It's just the easiest route to Biglaw. Striking out at OCI just means you'll have to get more creative--apply to smaller firms that might not be listed on NALP, apply to in-house departments, etc.

In a way, missing OCI can be a blessing in disguise because it makes you focus on your long-term career goals rather than punting on the question of what you really want to do with your life. Interested in sports? Entrepreneurship? Politics? Being a trial lawyer? Then big law isn't necessarily the right door, even if it's open.

Different anon, but I think part of my problem now thats just keeping me down is that its hard to find out where else to look and apply, you know?

Exactly. And harder to concentrate on courses.

[Anonymous User]

Different anon, but I think part of my problem now thats just keeping me down is that its hard to find out where else to look and apply, you know?

I hear ya. Apologies if you've already gone through this process, but it might help to list out every metropolitan area to which you have some ties--places you lived/went to school or places your SO lived. Places you've vacationed, etc. If you really want to work at a firm, apply to every firm in the area with targeted cover letters. There are a lot of smaller firms that might be hiring, and sure it's not as easy as finding the contact on NALP, but that just means there's less competition for those jobs.

Reach out to alumni from your college or from Penn in other legal employers that you're interested in. Reach out to in-house folks/government/PI stuff if you're interested in that line of work.

And don't stress if you don't have something lined up. A lot of summer internships don't start hiring until much later.

Sure but who wants a summer internship. We did that last year. We worked our butt of for a summer associate position this year. Going to be very depressing when were collecting our ten bucks an hour in our internships, while our close friends are making 3k a week.

[Anonymous User]

And why are there no jobs on simplicity at all? What does CPP do all day?!

[Anonymous User]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

[Anonymous User]

Definitly a possibility. I did a callback at a firm that I got through mass mail. This firm doesn't come to P. Heard from inside people that it was between me and someone from a school where the firm goes for OCI. They chose him/her because they wanted to maintain their relationship with that school, they don't have one with P.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

Leave your unfounded (and frankly unintelligible) opinions out of this forum.

[PennBull]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

Leave your unfounded (and frankly unintelligible) opinions out of this forum.

Yo it's a legitimate theory, dude is just tryna help us make sense of it all

Penn was the most represented school in my summer class, so maybe there's some validity to it

In any event, no need to be hostile bro, we're the collegial school and all that

[Anonymous User]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

Leave your unfounded (and frankly unintelligible) opinions out of this forum.

Yo it's a legitimate theory, dude is just tryna help us make sense of it all

Penn was the most represented school in my summer class, so maybe there's some validity to it

In any event, no need to be hostile bro, we're the collegial school and all that

Ya the collegial thing kind of wears off like after orientation. But I agree no reason to be hostile. His theory kind of made sense. Not that it helps us.

[Nelson]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

TLS is not a representative sample.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at MV and have heard anecdotally that our class did better than in recent years do to firms over-correcting for a lack of hires from our school in recent years. It's possible that, if indeed 2Ls at P have underperformed this year, that firms have done the opposite: realized they've hired too many P students in the last few years and therefore focused recruiting on other schools.

To be honest I don't really know why firms give a shit about having a diversity of schools represented as opposed to just having the best lawyers, but I've heard this a lot this year so I thought I would share.

TLS is not a representative sample.

I dont think anyone thinks it is. But it is all we have to go on. And the Penn forum does seem to be busier (not in a good way) then MV. Also seems to be busier then the last years but I dont know about that, Im just a lowly unemployed 2l.

[Anonymous User]

oh the humanity

[Anonymous User]

I made a few acquaintances from P, T, Drex and V while interning at the court house. The ones I know from P are heading to BL (NY/DC mainly) or at one of the BL satellite Philly firms. I recently checked some of the local Philly firm sites and P clearly trails the other schools. Is this because most Philly firms pay $20K less than BL or because P (for the most part) has a BL or bust mentality, or is it some other reason?

[Anonymous User]

I

I made a few acquaintances from P, T, Drex and V while interning at the court house. The ones I know from P are heading to BL (NY/DC mainly) or at one of the BL satellite Philly firms. I recently checked some of the local Philly firm sites and P clearly trails the other schools. Is this because most Philly firms pay $20K less than BL or because P (for the most part) has a BL or bust mentality, or is it some other reason?

I think the top students at P go to top firms in DC and NY. The rest try to land a job at any Big law firm that they can. As someone who interviewed at Philly firms, my expericance has been that these firms would rather take the top students at V or T then a median at P, unless it's an URM.

I think the reason is that back in the good days P students wouldn't even consider these firms. Now that legal hiring sucks, people are just trying to get any jobs, but there firms have a tradition and history for hiring from the lower schools. Also I believe they think that P students don't really want to to there it's just a fallback option. While the editor in chief of the Villinova law review really does want to go there.

Just my experiance. On that note if anyone knows of any firms still looking for SAs please post.
Being that CPP is not doing anythjng maybe we can help each other out.

[Anonymous User]

I think the top students at P go to top firms in DC and NY. The rest try to land a job at any Big law firm that they can. As someone who interviewed at Philly firms, my expericance has been that these firms would rather take the top students at V or T then a median at P, unless it's an URM.

I think the reason is that back in the good days P students wouldn't even consider these firms. Now that legal hiring sucks, people are just trying to get any jobs, but there firms have a tradition and history for hiring from the lower schools. Also I believe they think that P students don't really want to to there it's just a fallback option. While the editor in chief of the Villinova law review really does want to go there.

Just my experiance. On that note if anyone knows of any firms still looking for SAs please post.
Being that CPP is not doing anythjng maybe we can help each other out.

I agree with your assessments. With rare exception I noticed the non-P associates were magna cum laude, Order of the Coif, Law Review, etc. Starting in ’09 that is somewhat true for P…. any port in the storm. TLS folklore was that Philly firms avoided P thinking that they would jump to BL, that notion is now mostly debunked since there are few opportunities to jump anywhere to. The good news, I noticed many of the BL associates have been at the associate level for over 10 years, debunking the notion that associates are out in five years.

[Anonymous User]

I made a few acquaintances from P, T, Drex and V while interning at the court house. The ones I know from P are heading to BL (NY/DC mainly) or at one of the BL satellite Philly firms. I recently checked some of the local Philly firm sites and P clearly trails the other schools. Is this because most Philly firms pay $20K less than BL or because P (for the most part) has a BL or bust mentality, or is it some other reason?

Philly market is incredibly insular. Don't forget Rutgers. Also, they're generally afraid of taking people from the T14 because of the fear that they will just lateral to NYC after a few years.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who is median at Penn I have deep regrets about choosing P. Anyone that gets into P has some pretty good scholarships at T20. The P name is not enough to get you a good job. The elite firms are cutting Thier classes and HYS and CCN are fighting for all the same jobs. It can hurt you with lower ranked and philly firms. If you go to a lower school an do really well you will get a job. If you end up at median you will be in the same place with no job just with no or little debt.

Also one bad grade at penn can sink you forever. The curve is pretty harsh 1l. As someone with all good grades and one bad one, it totally ruined me.

[Anonymous User]

I was surprised to hear P uses a curve. I don’t “get that.” Unfortunately, I know a couple of great T students near the top of their class who are still looking. As far as second guessing your choice of P over an upper tier-1…. my guess is that the grass isn’t particularly greener, especially if you miss LR.

Are the chances of landing a Philly firm at this late date over.... or does a reasonable ray of hope exist?

[Anonymous User]

Philly big law firm? WAY OVER.

Maybe some small or midsize ones but i haven't heard or seen anything about this.