Penn OCI Forum

[Anonymous User]

Not trying to give you a hard time. I'm in the same exact boat. Just trying to see if there is any substantive advice how to go about doing these things? Maybe if there are any 3ls that got jobs after striking out 2l oci, they can chime in with what worked for them.

No offense taken; these are valid questions and this is a hard thing to deal with. I can't say any of these things will work, and like I said it's just the stuff I plan to do, but I could elaborate on your questions in turn. I still hope that any 3Ls who happen to be lurking here do chime in here, because I'm just spitballing on this one...

Network hard - care to explain how?

Not really my forte, since I did much less networking than I should have for this OCI (one of the mistakes I made that I will fix next time around, for instance). But from what I understand, just look up Penn Law alumni (the more recent the better) working at firms you would like to work for. E-mail them asking for a chat, preferably in person. These things help! I learned the hard way this fall. I got callbacks at two of the places where I networked with someone (and I only met with three people).

Mass mail during summer to which firms? Most firms don't hire 3ls and the few that do come to OCI.

I don't really know the answer to this for sure- I think CPP might. But my guess as of right now is that I am going to mass-mail every firm that hires 3Ls (yes, even if I already mass mailed them this fall and got rejected, and even if they are coming to OCI).

I say this because I don't think this 3L OCI thing works like it did this time around. I don't think you just bid and get interviews, for the most part (maybe for a couple firms). I think those who have success and get interviews get them because they hustled for them. Say you are interested in the firm and that you would like an opportunity to interview with them while they are on campus during fall interviewing. Tell them you are willing to travel to interview with them. You gotta remember that 3L hiring is the exception to the rule, so the rules don't apply. It's on you to get your foot in the door. In my mind, the only interviews I'm going to get next year are gonna come from networking and mass mailing, in that order of preference.

Eliminate mistakes you made during OCI - Let say we didn't make mistakes, yet still didn't get a job? I don't think not getting a job means making a mistake.

I think we all made some mistakes:

- Maybe your bidding strategy was off (mine was). To the extent that we can bid (not sure if we can), bid conservatively and only for New York.

- Maybe you didn't network. Start hooking up those informational interviews with alumni, even if you have to go to NYC to do it.

- Maybe you didn't mass mail in June or July (after reading around TLS is seems like that's when you're actually supposed to do it; I certainly didn't), or when you did, your cover letter wasn't as good as it could have been. This time, send letters early and have a perfectly tailored resume and cover letter (have CPP review it multiple times) when you do.

- Maybe your references were bad or you didn't have enough. Start making connections with professors and your boss this summer.

- Maybe your approach during interviews was off. Get on them mocks.

- Maybe your grades hurt you. Start hittin' up Biddle so much the janitors know you. Also, set yourself up for success by choosing the right classes that won't overextend you next semester with too many difficult credits. We already submitted classes, but take advantage of add/drop.

If you legitimately don't have any of those problems, then go into CPP and find out which ones you are just in denial about. I thought long and hard about what I did wrong, and I'm gonna try not to do any of those things again. You know exactly how OCI works now and you're armed with so much more knowledge- use it to your advantage.

I hope that helps. I can't say it will work for everyone, but it's definitely what I'm going to try. There aren't any other options.

[Anonymous User]

T20 2L here.

Why is the Penn OCI thread so much more depressing than the other threads? I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't have worse employment numbers than its comparably ranked peers. I think most of you will be fine.

I think, because Penn has over the last few years had the best biglaw hiring numbers of all law schools (or, if not, then right there), we didn't think it would happen to us, and as a result we are pretty upset. I also get the sense that our career office is particularly bad, which stokes the fire a little bit since we feel like this thread is pretty much the only place we can go.

[Anonymous User]

Not trying to give you a hard time. I'm in the same exact boat. Just trying to see if there is any substantive advice how to go about doing these things? Maybe if there are any 3ls that got jobs after striking out 2l oci, they can chime in with what worked for them.

No offense taken; these are valid questions and this is a hard thing to deal with. I can't say any of these things will work, and like I said it's just the stuff I plan to do, but I could elaborate on your questions in turn. I still hope that any 3Ls who happen to be lurking here do chime in here, because I'm just spitballing on this one...

Network hard - care to explain how?

Not really my forte, since I did much less networking than I should have for this OCI (one of the mistakes I made that I will fix next time around, for instance). But from what I understand, just look up Penn Law alumni (the more recent the better) working at firms you would like to work for. E-mail them asking for a chat, preferably in person. These things help! I learned the hard way this fall. I got callbacks at two of the places where I networked with someone (and I only met with three people).

Mass mail during summer to which firms? Most firms don't hire 3ls and the few that do come to OCI.

I don't really know the answer to this for sure- I think CPP might. But my guess as of right now is that I am going to mass-mail every firm that hires 3Ls (yes, even if I already mass mailed them this fall and got rejected, and even if they are coming to OCI).

I say this because I don't think this 3L OCI thing works like it did this time around. I don't think you just bid and get interviews, for the most part (maybe for a couple firms). I think those who have success and get interviews get them because they hustled for them. Say you are interested in the firm and that you would like an opportunity to interview with them while they are on campus during fall interviewing. Tell them you are willing to travel to interview with them. You gotta remember that 3L hiring is the exception to the rule, so the rules don't apply. It's on you to get your foot in the door. In my mind, the only interviews I'm going to get next year are gonna come from networking and mass mailing, in that order of preference.

Eliminate mistakes you made during OCI - Let say we didn't make mistakes, yet still didn't get a job? I don't think not getting a job means making a mistake.

I think we all made some mistakes:

- Maybe your bidding strategy was off (mine was). To the extent that we can bid (not sure if we can), bid conservatively and only for New York.

- Maybe you didn't network. Start hooking up those informational interviews with alumni, even if you have to go to NYC to do it.

- Maybe you didn't mass mail in June or July (after reading around TLS is seems like that's when you're actually supposed to do it; I certainly didn't), or when you did, your cover letter wasn't as good as it could have been. This time, send letters early and have a perfectly tailored resume and cover letter (have CPP review it multiple times) when you do.

- Maybe your references were bad or you didn't have enough. Start making connections with professors and your boss this summer.

- Maybe your approach during interviews was off. Get on them mocks.

- Maybe your grades hurt you. Start hittin' up Biddle so much the janitors know you. Also, set yourself up for success by choosing the right classes that won't overextend you next semester with too many difficult credits. We already submitted classes, but take advantage of add/drop.

If you legitimately don't have any of those problems, then go into CPP and find out which ones you are just in denial about. I thought long and hard about what I did wrong, and I'm gonna try not to do any of those things again. You know exactly how OCI works now and you're armed with so much more knowledge- use it to your advantage.

I hope that helps. I can't say it will work for everyone, but it's definitely what I'm going to try. There aren't any other options.

Well I bid only NY, pretty conservatively, and networked my ass off. Found any any connection that I had at any firm, and spoke to either an associate or partner at most of the firms I interviewed at. Grades weren't amazing - but certainly not terrible. Don't think references make much of a difference, I don't think anyone will say anything bad about you. I had a professor who I was close with and liked me. Spent hours going over my resume and perfecting it with CPP and others. Did about 8 mock interviews over the summer, by the end I was getting great feedback.


All that and nothing. So hard to get excited and motivated for 3l OCI where it's going to be tough to even land interviews.

[Anonymous User]

Well I bid only NY, pretty conservatively, and networked my ass off. Found any any connection that I had at any firm, and spoke to either an associate or partner at most of the firms I interviewed at. Grades weren't amazing - but certainly not terrible. Don't think references make much of a difference, I don't think anyone will say anything bad about you. I had a professor who I was close with and liked me. Spent hours going over my resume and perfecting it with CPP and others. Did about 8 mock interviews over the summer, by the end I was getting great feedback.


All that and nothing. So hard to get excited and motivated for 3l OCI where it's going to be tough to even land interviews.

Hey man, same dude here. Sounds like a horribly unlucky cycle. Just keep hustling for grades and try again next year just as hard. It's that or nothing =/ I really hope it works out for you

[Anonymous User]

T20 2L here.

Why is the Penn OCI thread so much more depressing than the other threads? I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't have worse employment numbers than its comparably ranked peers. I think most of you will be fine.

I think, because Penn has over the last few years had the best biglaw hiring numbers of all law schools (or, if not, then right there), we didn't think it would happen to us, and as a result we are pretty upset. I also get the sense that our career office is particularly bad, which stokes the fire a little bit since we feel like this thread is pretty much the only place we can go.

+1.

All 1l all we heard about was the amazing placement that Penn has in big law. Every 2l seemed to have jobs. Obv they all didn't but the ones CPP paraded in front of us had jobs. We obv knew there was a chance of not getting a job, but it didn't see it happening to us. Also career services is terrible, I know everyone says that about their school's career office, but ours does seem extra incompetant and honestly they don't seem to care too much.


Plus I think there is decent percentage that didn't get biglaw this year.

[Anonymous User]

Start hittin' up Biddle so much the janitors know you.


That will probably hurt more then help. Stay the hell away from Biddle and find somewhere pleasant to study, that helped me considerably.

[Anonymous User]

T20 2L here.

Why is the Penn OCI thread so much more depressing than the other threads? I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't have worse employment numbers than its comparably ranked peers. I think most of you will be fine.

I think, because Penn has over the last few years had the best biglaw hiring numbers of all law schools (or, if not, then right there), we didn't think it would happen to us, and as a result we are pretty upset. I also get the sense that our career office is particularly bad, which stokes the fire a little bit since we feel like this thread is pretty much the only place we can go.

+1.

All 1l all we heard about was the amazing placement that Penn has in big law. Every 2l seemed to have jobs. Obv they all didn't but the ones CPP paraded in front of us had jobs. We obv knew there was a chance of not getting a job, but it didn't see it happening to us. Also career services is terrible, I know everyone says that about their school's career office, but ours does seem extra incompetant and honestly they don't seem to care too much.


Plus I think there is decent percentage that didn't get biglaw this year.

Anybody know what % that is? I know most people are keeping quiet about it, and CPP certainly won't tell us a number because it might ruin the rosy picture they are painting for the 1ls and future applicants. Just wondering if anybody has heard anything?

[OutCold]

Since 3L OCI came up: The 3L recruiting process is very dependent on mailing. There are very few firms recruiting at OCI for 3Ls, and usually only the firms that have a specific need (like Paul Weiss looking for corporate associates this year to grow the group). Apply broadly, and send applications directly to the NALP recruiting contacts for a particular office you are targeting. If you are shooting for multiple offices within a firm, apply to each individually. 3L hiring occurs both at the same time as 2L hiring, but also into mid/late September.

Also, go to OCI days early while the firms are setting up. Drop your resume, and introduce yourself to the head recruiter. If there is no recruiting staff, just stick your head into an interviewing room and say hello to the interviewer. You can get bites from this, even from firms that aren't actively interviewing 3Ls.

[Anonymous User]

Since 3L OCI came up: The 3L recruiting process is very dependent on mailing. There are very few firms recruiting at OCI for 3Ls, and usually only the firms that have a specific need (like Paul Weiss looking for corporate associates this year to grow the group). Apply broadly, and send applications directly to the NALP recruiting contacts for a particular office you are targeting. If you are shooting for multiple offices within a firm, apply to each individually. 3L hiring occurs both at the same time as 2L hiring, but also into mid/late September.

Also, go to OCI days early while the firms are setting up. Drop your resume, and introduce yourself to the head recruiter. If there is no recruiting staff, just stick your head into an interviewing room and say hello to the interviewer. You can get bites from this, even from firms that aren't actively interviewing 3Ls.

Are you at Penn? Just wondering because I don't think OCI works like that here. Firms aren't getting here days early. From my experience they usually arrived the morning of, with the interviewers arriving right before the interviews began.

So we got to hang out in that tight cramped cellar which will be full of 1ls, and we got to run around begging recruiters and interviewers for interviews. Probably the same ones that dinged us last year and now were 3ls and even less desirable. Looking forward!

On a side note - can you tell us a little about Paul Weiss? Did they hire a lot of 3ls? Are they still looking to grow their corp. practice? Should we mass mail them now for this summer if we can sell corp?

[Anonymous User]

Also, go to OCI days early while the firms are setting up. Drop your resume, and introduce yourself to the head recruiter. If there is no recruiting staff, just stick your head into an interviewing room and say hello to the interviewer. You can get bites from this, even from firms that aren't actively interviewing 3Ls.

Are you at Penn? Just wondering because I don't think OCI works like that here. Firms aren't getting here days early. From my experience they usually arrived the morning of, with the interviewers arriving right before the interviews began.

I believe OutCold does go to Penn. Also I interpreted that section to mean "on days where OCI is happening, show up early while firms are setting up."

[Anonymous User]

Also, go to OCI days early while the firms are setting up. Drop your resume, and introduce yourself to the head recruiter. If there is no recruiting staff, just stick your head into an interviewing room and say hello to the interviewer. You can get bites from this, even from firms that aren't actively interviewing 3Ls.

Are you at Penn? Just wondering because I don't think OCI works like that here. Firms aren't getting here days early. From my experience they usually arrived the morning of, with the interviewers arriving right before the interviews began.

I believe OutCold does go to Penn. Also I interpreted that section to mean "on days where OCI is happening, show up early while firms are setting up."

Oh that makes more sense.

[OutCold]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Apologies for the awkward phrasing. Around 8:30 is when recruiters start herding in. That half hour before interviews start is the only chance you'll get to have someone's full attention without being on the schedule.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Apologies for the awkward phrasing. Around 8:30 is when recruiters start herding in. That half hour before interviews start is the only chance you'll get to have someone's full attention without being on the schedule.

Mr OutCold,

Don't want to get too personal, but can you tell us if you went through 3l OCI? What firms were more receptive to 3ls? Any firms known for giving jobs to 3ls? Specifically at Penn?

[OutCold]

I went through the 3L recruiting process this year, but I was coming off an SA. The process of finding interviews should still be the same, however. The fact of the matter is that there were only four or five firms with 3L specific slots at OCI. This doesn't mean that only those particular firms are looking for 3Ls. Ignore what firms say about their hiring needs. Drop your resume and talk to recruiters from as many firms as you can at OCI. Maybe you get they fit you into their schedule, maybe they hold onto your resume until later. Either way, it's the best chance you'll get to have a personal interaction with a recruiter.

Don't rely on OCI or you'll get burned. You need to mass mail. Like I said before, send resumes straight to recruiters listed on NALP. It might even be worth it to make contact with a partner alum with some clout and ask them to pass along your resume. I had one of those pay off this year, though that alum happened to be the hiring partner in a small office. Mail everyone, everywhere. Make your cover letter count because it will be the ONLY chance you have to sell yourself. I spent a paragraph talking about my desire to be a trial lawyer, my experiences playing into that, and how the firm fit my goals.

Finally, I was only targeting the east coast major markets, but what I found was that the bigger the firm, the more likely they were to be receptive to 3L recruiting. This is not to say that smaller firms and firms in secondary markets don't have openings, but they are much more sensitive to the number of associates they need. Again, mail everywhere.

I know that CPP is useless and I feel your frustration. What you need to remember now is that you can't give up on it. Yeah, you need to keep your grades strong and all that, but the fact of the matter is 2L summer jobs keep hiring year round. You need to keep mailing. Mail an hour a day. Mail a few days a week. The point is that you can't get something that you didn't apply to. A significant grade increase can and will help you get noticed, I know this from experience. It catches a firm's eye and they like to ask you about it, which gets you an interview, even if it is 20 minutes on the phone. Take one substantive class like crim pro or evidence and three fluff seminars that don't sound fluffy. Drug products lit is a good one. This lets you focus on the substantive class and still pull A's in the seminars.

One final lead: The DA's office here in Philly recruits heavily out of their 2L summer program AND the DA externship offered through the law school both semesters. If that interests you, reach out to someone who did it.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't seminars more work then classes? Haven't seen any that had great grade distributions either. Of course as soon as one writes anything down in that office - you got 4 people yelling like you just murdered someone.

So you think we should still be mass mailing? CPP told me the exact opposite (not that I would put any stock into what they say). Any firms that are known to hire this late in the game?
'

[Anonymous User]

OutCold- sincere thanks for your time and help.

I've got one more question for you. Right now I was lucky enough to get an SA at a non NLJ 350 midsize firm (just under 100 lawyers firmwide) in an irrelevant flyover country midwest market. I'd like to try for 3L OCI and get something better. My question is, how do you do 3L OCI without screwing yourself over at your current job? The firm hires very few people per year and it isn't like they would be happy to be a reference for me or anything, in fact I'm sure they'd be pretty pissed if they knew I was looking elsewhere. This has to be a common occurrence when trying to trade up at 3L OCI. How does one juggle it?

[Anonymous User]

OutCold- sincere thanks for your time and help.

I've got one more question for you. Right now I was lucky enough to get an SA at a non NLJ 350 midsize firm (just under 100 lawyers firmwide) in an irrelevant flyover country midwest market. I'd like to try for 3L OCI and get something better. My question is, how do you do 3L OCI without screwing yourself over at your current job? The firm hires very few people per year and it isn't like they would be happy to be a reference for me or anything, in fact I'm sure they'd be pretty pissed if they knew I was looking elsewhere. This has to be a common occurrence when trying to trade up at 3L OCI. How does one juggle it?

Wow congrats is this from mass mailing?

[PennBull]

OutCold- sincere thanks for your time and help.

I've got one more question for you. Right now I was lucky enough to get an SA at a non NLJ 350 midsize firm (just under 100 lawyers firmwide) in an irrelevant flyover country midwest market. I'd like to try for 3L OCI and get something better. My question is, how do you do 3L OCI without screwing yourself over at your current job? The firm hires very few people per year and it isn't like they would be happy to be a reference for me or anything, in fact I'm sure they'd be pretty pissed if they knew I was looking elsewhere. This has to be a common occurrence when trying to trade up at 3L OCI. How does one juggle it?

You just do it. There's no juggling.

If they've given you an offer, you can always sit on it and wait until you finish 3L OCI

If they haven't given you an offer, then you just do 3L OCI while you wait to hear from them

You don't necessarily have to tell them what you're doing every step of the way

[Anonymous User]

OutCold- sincere thanks for your time and help.

I've got one more question for you. Right now I was lucky enough to get an SA at a non NLJ 350 midsize firm (just under 100 lawyers firmwide) in an irrelevant flyover country midwest market. I'd like to try for 3L OCI and get something better. My question is, how do you do 3L OCI without screwing yourself over at your current job? The firm hires very few people per year and it isn't like they would be happy to be a reference for me or anything, in fact I'm sure they'd be pretty pissed if they knew I was looking elsewhere. This has to be a common occurrence when trying to trade up at 3L OCI. How does one juggle it?

You just do it. There's no juggling.

If they've given you an offer, you can always sit on it and wait until you finish 3L OCI

If they haven't given you an offer, then you just do 3L OCI while you wait to hear from them

You don't necessarily have to tell them what you're doing every step of the way

But do the firms I'm interviewing with want to call the previous firm as a reference or something?

[Anonymous User]

OutCold- sincere thanks for your time and help.

I've got one more question for you. Right now I was lucky enough to get an SA at a non NLJ 350 midsize firm (just under 100 lawyers firmwide) in an irrelevant flyover country midwest market. I'd like to try for 3L OCI and get something better. My question is, how do you do 3L OCI without screwing yourself over at your current job? The firm hires very few people per year and it isn't like they would be happy to be a reference for me or anything, in fact I'm sure they'd be pretty pissed if they knew I was looking elsewhere. This has to be a common occurrence when trying to trade up at 3L OCI. How does one juggle it?

You just do it. There's no juggling.

If they've given you an offer, you can always sit on it and wait until you finish 3L OCI

If they haven't given you an offer, then you just do 3L OCI while you wait to hear from them

You don't necessarily have to tell them what you're doing every step of the way

But do the firms I'm interviewing with want to call the previous firm as a reference or something?

What if we don't have jobs this summer? What do we say during 3l OCI, that we struck out? Or if we get hired by a firm that is not ranked pays way below market and in a field that your not interested in at all, but it was the only one you got? How do you spin that?

[PennBull]

First of all, 3L OCI is a long ways away, and it's not like some safety net. Don't focus so much on it.

If you're sitting on an offer at 3L OCI, that's okay. Being transparent is fine. Letting them know you're interested in different options is fine. If they contact your summer firm, that firm isn't going to revoke their offer. (They're probably not going to contact your summer firm).

If you're waiting for an offer from your summer firm, that's okay. Being transparent is fine. Your post-graduation plans are not set and you'd like an opportunity at the interviewer's law firm.

What if we don't have jobs this summer?

Seriously? You'll get something. It might not be a law firm. That's not the end of the world. Approach 3L OCI interviews talking about your 2L summer experience as a valuable opportunity and what you learned about.

For the love of everything don't tell an interviewer next fall "yeah, I struck out last year so I had to settle for X job, it wasn't that great"

[Anonymous User]

So what is the safety not?

I don't have concrete numbers but just from talking to people it sounds like a decent percentage did not get anything through OCI this year. So how does Penn show 96% employed at graduation? When does everyone get jobs between now and grad?

[Anonymous User]

First of all, 3L OCI is a long ways away, and it's not like some safety net. Don't focus so much on it.

If you're sitting on an offer at 3L OCI, that's okay. Being transparent is fine. Letting them know you're interested in different options is fine. If they contact your summer firm, that firm isn't going to revoke their offer. (They're probably not going to contact your summer firm).

If you're waiting for an offer from your summer firm, that's okay. Being transparent is fine. Your post-graduation plans are not set and you'd like an opportunity at the interviewer's law firm.

Thanks, PennBull

[PennBull]

So what is the safety not?

I don't have concrete numbers but just from talking to people it sounds like a decent percentage did not get anything through OCI this year. So how does Penn show 96% employed at graduation? When does everyone get jobs between now and grad?

There are countless legal jobs outside of just law firms. Being a Penn student is certainly good enough to get you something by mailing and contacting places all over the country. Read what OutCold posted above and refer to the TLS Employment Forum in general for tips.

[Anonymous User]

So what is the safety not?

I don't have concrete numbers but just from talking to people it sounds like a decent percentage did not get anything through OCI this year. So how does Penn show 96% employed at graduation? When does everyone get jobs between now and grad?

There are countless legal jobs outside of just law firms. Being a Penn student is certainly good enough to get you something by mailing and contacting places all over the country. Read what OutCold posted above and refer to the TLS Employment Forum in general for tips.

Thanks for the advice, even though it left me even a little more depressed on this beautiful sunny day in Philadelphia. Tons of debt + coming to law school because I wanted to work in biglaw, kind of sucks as you see your dreams get flushed away.