Summer Associates 2014: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[sap]

for the other 1L SAs in the house: what is the protocol for networking/CB's at other firms in prep for OCI? I don't get any "days off," but I could pretty easily fib an AM dentist appointment or something (I actually really do need to go to the dentist, ironically). Feels disingenuous, but I really would like to finish some callback's before heading back to school since I'm in a big market this summer with offices that don't show up for on campus interviews. Too risky? I don't want to piss off the firm I'm at since I like it.

Are firms other than Quinn doing callbacks? I think you'd be OK asking for like a half-day a few times ("have to run an errand" has worked for me this summer to get a half day + wfh to get work done if necessary, no questions asked). At most schools, you should have a good 2-3 week gap between firm and OCI, too - so if I were you, I'd stay in your city apartment for an extra week and do them during that time. But since you're probably going to need screeners before callbacks, this late in the summer, this shouldn't even be a concern. Screeners are short enough that you won't really need an excuse to step out of your firm (and if you really are in a big city, most law firms will be pretty close by). Cross the callback bridge when/if you get there before you're done with your job.

If you want to do networking, stepping out to have coffee in the AM/afternoon, at least where I am this summer, wouldn't be looked at funny in any way, as long as coffee = coffee, not 1.5 hour lunch. You could also just use your lunch for this. "I'm having lunch with a friend" is totally ok.

[PepperJack]

Leaving during work hours seems wrong. I'm not the most moral person, but if you're making around market you're being paid too much money to bail on them during work hours. To each their own. Logically, it would seem like being in demand is a good thing. Plus, lawyers are smart, and could probably put 2 and 2 together. They might ask why you're there at 2 PM if the first thing on your resume is the firm. I don't know how they would weigh it, but they may find it strange.

[Anonymous User]

Leaving during work hours seems wrong. I'm not the most moral person, but if you're making around market you're being paid too much money to bail on them during work hours. To each their own. Logically, it would seem like being in demand is a good thing. Plus, lawyers are smart, and could probably put 2 and 2 together. They might ask why you're there at 2 PM if the first thing on your resume is the firm. I don't know how they would weigh it, but they may find it strange.

Do you have any suggestions for when an acceptable time to schedule a cb would be? I doubt you would be able to swing a weekend interview.

[Anonymous User]

Leaving during work hours seems wrong. I'm not the most moral person, but if you're making around market you're being paid too much money to bail on them during work hours. To each their own. Logically, it would seem like being in demand is a good thing. Plus, lawyers are smart, and could probably put 2 and 2 together. They might ask why you're there at 2 PM if the first thing on your resume is the firm. I don't know how they would weigh it, but they may find it strange.

Do you have any suggestions for when an acceptable time to schedule a cb would be? I doubt you would be able to swing a weekend interview.

At my firm we could probably just show up late and stay later to get the requisite hours in for the day.

[Anonymous User]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

You can definitely leave during the workday to do whatever to if you are capable of discretion. Just tell your secretary you have a meeting and will be out for a bit and if your firm requires you account for some period of time, make sure you get that in before or after. No one cares as long as you are getting your stuff done, and if an attorney comes looking for you they will probably just assume you are on a call or meeting for a different project.

[rpupkin]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

I'm not surprised. V13 firms are known for their work/life balance. That's less true of V12 firms.

[Nebby]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

You can definitely leave during the workday to do whatever to if you are capable of discretion. Just tell your secretary you have a meeting and will be out for a bit and if your firm requires you account for some period of time, make sure you get that in before or after. No one cares as long as you are getting your stuff done, and if an attorney comes looking for you they will probably just assume you are on a call or meeting for a different project.

So you're at whatever firm is ranked V13. You people are really bad at this. "I don't want to put V20, it's not prestifsious enough. I'll just do my firm and down! Muahaha"

[bjsesq]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

I'm not surprised. V13 firms are known for their work/life balance. That's less true of V12 firms.

V12 is fine, but V11.5 gets into indentured servitude. We won't even get into V2^3

[FSK]

ITT: Confirming that I have 0 desire to spend next summer in NYC.

[nsideirish]

Lol at summers pulling all nighters. That is so shitty. Do your scholarly contributions really help move that deal along that just has to close the next morning?!

So happy I'm not in NY.

[Anonymous User]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

You can definitely leave during the workday to do whatever to if you are capable of discretion. Just tell your secretary you have a meeting and will be out for a bit and if your firm requires you account for some period of time, make sure you get that in before or after. No one cares as long as you are getting your stuff done, and if an attorney comes looking for you they will probably just assume you are on a call or meeting for a different project.

So you're at whatever firm is ranked V13. You people are really bad at this. "I don't want to put V20, it's not prestifsious enough. I'll just do my firm and down! Muahaha"

Or perhaps I chose an arbitrary number that was not inaccurate.

[Nebby]

At a NYC V13 and I leave before 6 at least 3 days a week.

You can definitely leave during the workday to do whatever to if you are capable of discretion. Just tell your secretary you have a meeting and will be out for a bit and if your firm requires you account for some period of time, make sure you get that in before or after. No one cares as long as you are getting your stuff done, and if an attorney comes looking for you they will probably just assume you are on a call or meeting for a different project.

So you're at whatever firm is ranked V13. You people are really bad at this. "I don't want to put V20, it's not prestifsious enough. I'll just do my firm and down! Muahaha"

Or perhaps I chose an arbitrary number that was not inaccurate.

No. You didn't.

[Anonymous User]

for the other 1L SAs in the house: what is the protocol for networking/CB's at other firms in prep for OCI? I don't get any "days off," but I could pretty easily fib an AM dentist appointment or something (I actually really do need to go to the dentist, ironically). Feels disingenuous, but I really would like to finish some callback's before heading back to school since I'm in a big market this summer with offices that don't show up for on campus interviews. Too risky? I don't want to piss off the firm I'm at since I like it.

Are firms other than Quinn doing callbacks? I think you'd be OK asking for like a half-day a few times ("have to run an errand" has worked for me this summer to get a half day + wfh to get work done if necessary, no questions asked). At most schools, you should have a good 2-3 week gap between firm and OCI, too - so if I were you, I'd stay in your city apartment for an extra week and do them during that time. But since you're probably going to need screeners before callbacks, this late in the summer, this shouldn't even be a concern. Screeners are short enough that you won't really need an excuse to step out of your firm (and if you really are in a big city, most law firms will be pretty close by). Cross the callback bridge when/if you get there before you're done with your job.

If you want to do networking, stepping out to have coffee in the AM/afternoon, at least where I am this summer, wouldn't be looked at funny in any way, as long as coffee = coffee, not 1.5 hour lunch. You could also just use your lunch for this. "I'm having lunch with a friend" is totally ok.

1L SA right now and they encourage me to go around and network with other firms in the city (i'm in NYC). i guess it's just the culture here. But they allow me to leave early to go meet with alumni from my school and learn about the firm as long as i get my work done too. Sometimes that means doing stuff from home or other times coming back to the office afterwards too.

[Anonymous User]

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I'm at a V5 and have stayed past 7 to do work exactly once. I very often leave before 6pm.

[rpupkin]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

Perhaps my mistake was in assuming that there are only a couple of "huge NYC sweatshops" where summers are expected to stay late.

Seriously, though, when I wrote that a summer working late "is weird unless a partner or associate has specifically asked you to stay late and/or you have a real deadline to meet," I wasn't talking about working past some arbitrary hour. If most everyone at your firm (including summers) stays till 8 p.m. most days, then 8 p.m. isn't "late" by the standards of your firm. I'm talking about regularly staying past the point when most of the summers leave.

[5ky]

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I'm at a V5 and have stayed past 7 to do work exactly once. I very often leave before 6pm.

I left before 6:15 all the time when I was a summer, as do our summers still.

[fishfry111]

[

[Nelson]

Seriously, though, when I wrote that a summer working late "is weird unless a partner or associate has specifically asked you to stay late and/or you have a real deadline to meet," I wasn't talking about working past some arbitrary hour. If most everyone at your firm (including summers) stays till 8 p.m. most days, then 8 p.m. isn't "late" by the standards of your firm. I'm talking about regularly staying past the point when most of the summers leave.

Okay, but I'm telling ya: The "standard" here at my firm is definitely after 6:30 pm. The only SA's who leave before that either skulk away quietly, or double-ask every partner/associate in htheir rotation group "is there anything I can do?" just to cover their asses. (keep in mind that you're leaving at a time whem most associates, especially junior ones, are still slaving away).

Nobody wants to be no-offered just to get home a half-hour earlier. After the permanent offer, who knows?

If you get your work done on time and it's good, why would anyone care what time you leave? It's this kind of bullshit that reinforces the neurotic attitude around here.

[09042014]

Seriously, though, when I wrote that a summer working late "is weird unless a partner or associate has specifically asked you to stay late and/or you have a real deadline to meet," I wasn't talking about working past some arbitrary hour. If most everyone at your firm (including summers) stays till 8 p.m. most days, then 8 p.m. isn't "late" by the standards of your firm. I'm talking about regularly staying past the point when most of the summers leave.

Okay, but I'm telling ya: The "standard" here at my firm is definitely after 6:30 pm. The only SA's who leave before that either skulk away quietly, or double-ask every partner/associate in htheir rotation group "is there anything I can do?" just to cover their asses. (keep in mind that you're leaving at a time whem most associates, especially junior ones, are still slaving away).

Nobody wants to be no-offered just to get home a half-hour earlier. After the permanent offer, who knows?

If you get your work done on time and it's good, why would anyone care what time you leave? It's this kind of bullshit that reinforces the neurotic attitude around here.

Firms wildly vary in their face time requirements. If his firm is a facetime place, well that is how it goes, sucks for him. You are both wrong to force your firms culture on each others firm.

Though face time is lol, ttt.

[BuckinghamB]

Man, just got home from the office now. I dunno how my V7 would've closed this huge deal without my important work tonight.

[Anonymous User]

If you get your work done on time and it's good, why would anyone care what time you leave? It's this kind of bullshit that reinforces the neurotic attitude around here.

Totally agree with this. The problem is that at my V23-1/2 firm, If you finish your work early before 6 pm, they expect you to ask for more.

[Anonymous User]

Could be paranoia, but if a firm was 100% last year, yet partners make announcements "wherever you wind up starting your career" or "if you come back" at group sessions does this mean we may not be 100%?

[5ky]

Could be paranoia, but if a firm was 100% last year, yet partners make announcements "wherever you wind up starting your career" or "if you come back" at group sessions does this mean we may not be 100%?

No

[Anonymous User]

They could be worried about people trying to trade up, but that never made sense to me. If you like the people at Firm A then it's such a risk to trade up to Firm B. The only positive is prestige and exit options. Personally, I cannot believe that recruiters are superficial enough to always want the V-10 5th year over the V-30 5th year irrespective of experience.

[Anonymous User]

They could be worried about people trying to trade up, but that never made sense to me. If you like the people at Firm A then it's such a risk to trade up to Firm B. The only positive is prestige and exit options. Personally, I cannot believe that recruiters are superficial enough to always want the V-10 5th year over the V-30 5th year irrespective of experience.

Either way, we'll start biting our knuckles beginning in a couple of weeks.