The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[deadpanic]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

I would stick with the base salary and keep looking for other work. I know you are scared of the "law clerk" stigma but you also have to pay bills. You are also not that far removed from graduation. Maybe someone else can weigh in and tell you otherwise but I don't see much upside in jumping ship where you have no guarantee you can even pay rent after the first month. It sounds like you would basically be going solo without the overhead at the new place, which seems pretty risky unless you are confident you have a good book of business you can bring to the table.

[Anonymous User]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

This sounds creepily like a small firm I interviewed with a couple of months ago. It was billable work the first month, then I was expected to bring in business, of which they would take 50% of the first $8,000 I made, and then the rest would be a on "sliding scale." I turned down their second interview because it sounded like a scam, at least for a new grad.

[Anonymous User]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

This sounds creepily like a small firm I interviewed with a couple of months ago. It was billable work the first month, then I was expected to bring in business, of which they would take 50% of the first $8,000 I made, and then the rest would be a on "sliding scale." I turned down their second interview because it sounded like a scam, at least for a new grad.

This is kind of what I was worried about too, but I have been researching these types of offers, checking with career services and other attorneys who have accepted share agreements--they are pretty standard for small firms. Market around my area seems to be a 60/40 split, with the firm taking the 60%. This small firm is small enough (with such a small amount of overhead) that they are offering a significantly better deal than market. I'm just really, really worried about bringing in business fast enough to pay rent this new out of school.

deadpanic--that is exactly my worry. I don't have a book of business. I have ideas for bringing business, but it just seems risky. I do like the fact that it is close to going solo without the overhead. . .but knowing that I automatically lose a huge chunk of what I'm billing to overhead is scary.

[Anonymous User]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

This sounds creepily like a small firm I interviewed with a couple of months ago. It was billable work the first month, then I was expected to bring in business, of which they would take 50% of the first $8,000 I made, and then the rest would be a on "sliding scale." I turned down their second interview because it sounded like a scam, at least for a new grad.

This is kind of what I was worried about too, but I have been researching these types of offers, checking with career services and other attorneys who have accepted share agreements--they are pretty standard for small firms. Market around my area seems to be a 60/40 split, with the firm taking the 60%. This small firm is small enough (with such a small amount of overhead) that they are offering a significantly better deal than market. I'm just really, really worried about bringing in business fast enough to pay rent this new out of school.

deadpanic--that is exactly my worry. I don't have a book of business. I have ideas for bringing business, but it just seems risky. I do like the fact that it is close to going solo without the overhead. . .but knowing that I automatically lose a huge chunk of what I'm billing to overhead is scary.

Anon above here. I guess you'd have a better idea of how you are going to bring in business---and quickly. As someone who knows very few people (read: none probably) who would make good, paying clients, I have little confidence of generating any revenue within the first few years, let alone the second month of employment. But if you are someone who has deep connections to your market and maybe worked in some relevant or up-and-coming industries before law school, you're probably better situated. I just find that new grads have fewer connections because we tend to be younger so have had fewer opportunities to build a professional network. That said, good luck. I hope you find what works for you.

[sparty99]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

Sounds like a shit engagement. I would continue to be a law clerk. You can also put on your resume: Law Clerk (e.g. Attorney). Or you can choose to not put your title on your resume. Or if you are licensed, you can ask the firm if you can change your title to "Staff Attorney" or "Attorney."

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like a shit engagement. I would continue to be a law clerk. You can also put on your resume: Law Clerk (e.g. Attorney). Or you can choose to not put your title on your resume. Or if you are licensed, you can ask the firm if you can change your title to "Staff Attorney" or "Attorney."

I'm licensed, but no chance they'll change my title. I've been working at the firm all through law school, wonderful people, wonderful firm, but no flexibility on this point. Wish to God they had an attorney spot open. :/

[sparty99]

Sounds like a shit engagement. I would continue to be a law clerk. You can also put on your resume: Law Clerk (e.g. Attorney). Or you can choose to not put your title on your resume. Or if you are licensed, you can ask the firm if you can change your title to "Staff Attorney" or "Attorney."

I'm licensed, but no chance they'll change my title. I've been working at the firm all through law school, wonderful people, wonderful firm, but no flexibility on this point. Wish to God they had an attorney spot open. :/

Then I would put Law Clerk (Attorney) on my resume. Especially if you do work that an attorney would do. Even if its 10% of your job. You graduated from law school, passed the bar, passed c and f, and so you are an Attorney. If you are in the Law Clerk position past August then that will be a problem as you want to start gaining substantive legal experience. But that's 8 months away, so continue with the guranteed base and apply until the right opportunity comes.

[taway]

I need advice. 2014 grad--I have a small firm offer on the table. I'm currently working as a "law clerk," really a full-time paralegal doing paralegal and intermittent attorney work. I'm being paid around $45k for this work with benefits, under the assumption by my bosses that I will be looking for attorney work and be out the door as soon as I find it. The small firm is offering pay by percentage of billing, with far fewer benefits than my current position.

The small firm offer is close to the work I want to do, but not exactly; while my current law clerk position is much closer to what I want to do--but absolutely no hope of an attorney position opening up.

The small firm will start me out with some billable work for the first month, then I'm expected to be finding mostly my own clients. I'm scared to death of the percentage billing so early without a base salary to speak of or fall back on. . . .I'm just having trouble finding any alternative and am worried that if I continue to be a "law clerk" for much longer, that I'll lose any marketability. I'm searching everywhere, applying everywhere, all over the country. . . but getting no bites (everything wants 3-7 years experience as an attorney).

This sounds creepily like a small firm I interviewed with a couple of months ago. It was billable work the first month, then I was expected to bring in business, of which they would take 50% of the first $8,000 I made, and then the rest would be a on "sliding scale." I turned down their second interview because it sounded like a scam, at least for a new grad.

This is kind of what I was worried about too, but I have been researching these types of offers, checking with career services and other attorneys who have accepted share agreements--they are pretty standard for small firms. Market around my area seems to be a 60/40 split, with the firm taking the 60%. This small firm is small enough (with such a small amount of overhead) that they are offering a significantly better deal than market. I'm just really, really worried about bringing in business fast enough to pay rent this new out of school.

deadpanic--that is exactly my worry. I don't have a book of business. I have ideas for bringing business, but it just seems risky. I do like the fact that it is close to going solo without the overhead. . .but knowing that I automatically lose a huge chunk of what I'm billing to overhead is scary.

I have seen these deals many times. I was solo several years back and I turned an offer down for 50/50 split. It just didn't make sense because I knew overhead was not that much. If they will supply considerable leads to you then it may be worthwhile, but if you are generating your business and paying them half, you are getting ripped off.

[Anonymous User]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

[taway]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

December is always a slow month, but I don't know if I would say that January is going to be any better than November or October were.

[baal hadad]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

Hiring seems to happen at random times unfortunately

[Anonymous User]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

Hiring seems to happen at random times unfortunately

Just found out I lost an entry-level attorney position to another candidate with work experience. Was told they'd "keep my resume on file." Yeah, OK. Whatever.

When will it be mine turn to already have 1-3 years experience?

[Anonymous User]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

Hiring seems to happen at random times unfortunately

Just found out I lost an entry-level attorney position to another candidate with work experience. Was told they'd "keep my resume on file." Yeah, OK. Whatever.

When will it be mine turn to already have 1-3 years experience?

My office just hired an entry-level person (also a 2014 grad) who interned here last summer without:

1.) Telling me they were looking
2.) Ignoring me telling them I would like to stay here full time instead of relying on school fellowship money.

Happy new year I guess.

[BVest]

Is hiring generally supposed to pick up at the start of the year? The last few months after passing the bar has been quite depressing to say the least...

Hiring seems to happen at random times unfortunately

Just found out I lost an entry-level attorney position to another candidate with work experience. Was told they'd "keep my resume on file." Yeah, OK. Whatever.

When will it be mine turn to already have 1-3 years experience?

My office just hired an entry-level person (also a 2014 grad) who interned here last summer without:

1.) Telling me they were looking
2.) Ignoring me telling them I would like to stay here full time instead of relying on school fellowship money.

Happy new year I guess.

Sorry. Hopefully they're anticipating another opening about when your money runs out.

[Anonymous User]

I went to a TTT on a full ride to avoid taking loans, graduated in the top five students with an almost perfect GPA, clerked for a magistrate judge for a year in one of the more "prestigious" districts, and am clerking for a district judge now in a big city where I am barred and want to practice. I do not have a personality disorder, am not horrifically ugly, and I also have other legal experience actually drafting motions and doing other real substantive work. For the past six months, I have steadily sent out applications (2-3 a day average, some days many more, some days less) to firms large and small, non-profits, DOJ, and other government agencies, and I have received absolutely no response whatsoever. I have targeted firms with alumni from my law school, I have hit up old contacts, and I have reached out cold-email style to people at firms in the hopes of just getting a cup of coffee. Nothing has come of any of it.

A lot of people have suggested that my current judge should help me out and I have asked on occasion for her to make calls. She genuinely wants to help I think but she has been on the bench a long time and the contacts she had from her past jobs have either retired or gone elsewhere. She doesn't like making cold calls to people she doesn't know and I don't blame her and how effective could the call be anyway? I didn't think it would be a picnic finding a job in this economy or this market, and I now know how bad of an idea it was to go to a TTT, but after clerking twice I thought I would at least be able to get some interest.

It is even more disheartening that 3Ls who I have hired as interns who went to decent (not even T14) schools and are only maybe in the top 1/3 of their class are getting good offers with ease but I am struggling utterly to find ANYthing. True, I haven't really applied to firms at that one final level of shitlaw "Law Offices of ______" where you work for 35k or less for a guy who graduated 4 yrs before you and wants to boss you around in loser small $ civil rights cases. Maybe that's the level I need to go for, but honestly if that is all that is out there for me, it's really so unappealing that I think I would rather leave law altogether. With no debt this seems like a possibility --- although I wonder who would hire me now, given my litigation-specific experience.

I actually am one of those rare birds who really does enjoy law, but my clerkship is up soon and I have been giving switching careers more and more thought lately. I can't expect anyone to give me advice here, mostly I'm just writing to commiserate. It is a foul market out there (for some of us). Here's to better luck in the New Year.

[taway]

I went to a TTT on a full ride to avoid taking loans, graduated in the top five students with an almost perfect GPA, clerked for a magistrate judge for a year in one of the more "prestigious" districts, and am clerking for a district judge now in a big city where I am barred and want to practice. I do not have a personality disorder, am not horrifically ugly, and I also have other legal experience actually drafting motions and doing other real substantive work. For the past six months, I have steadily sent out applications (2-3 a day average, some days many more, some days less) to firms large and small, non-profits, DOJ, and other government agencies, and I have received absolutely no response whatsoever. I have targeted firms with alumni from my law school, I have hit up old contacts, and I have reached out cold-email style to people at firms in the hopes of just getting a cup of coffee. Nothing has come of any of it.

A lot of people have suggested that my current judge should help me out and I have asked on occasion for her to make calls. She genuinely wants to help I think but she has been on the bench a long time and the contacts she had from her past jobs have either retired or gone elsewhere. She doesn't like making cold calls to people she doesn't know and I don't blame her and how effective could the call be anyway? I didn't think it would be a picnic finding a job in this economy or this market, and I now know how bad of an idea it was to go to a TTT, but after clerking twice I thought I would at least be able to get some interest.

It is even more disheartening that 3Ls who I have hired as interns who went to decent (not even T14) schools and are only maybe in the top 1/3 of their class are getting good offers with ease but I am struggling utterly to find ANYthing. True, I haven't really applied to firms at that one final level of shitlaw "Law Offices of ______" where you work for 35k or less for a guy who graduated 4 yrs before you and wants to boss you around in loser small $ civil rights cases. Maybe that's the level I need to go for, but honestly if that is all that is out there for me, it's really so unappealing that I think I would rather leave law altogether. With no debt this seems like a possibility --- although I wonder who would hire me now, given my litigation-specific experience.

I actually am one of those rare birds who really does enjoy law, but my clerkship is up soon and I have been giving switching careers more and more thought lately. I can't expect anyone to give me advice here, mostly I'm just writing to commiserate. It is a foul market out there (for some of us). Here's to better luck in the New Year.

I am very surprised that someone with your qualifications and experience is not getting a Biglaw offer. I assumed that the market was rough just for the bottom 90%. I have seen people with a fraction of your qualifications and experience landing comfortable government jobs.

Honestly, I think you should get out while you are young enough to switch careers. It is rough out there and I don't see it improving. I am of the mindset that if you keep trying, something will come along. But you don't even have to keep trying. You have other options. Just my two cents.

[Anonymous User]

I'm OP from 2 posts up...I probably have applied to 80 Big to Medium to Small size firms here in my city and have not been asked to an interview at a single place. Certainly it seems no one from BigLaw is frothing at the mouth over my resume. I've also sent apps to pretty much every government agency that has an office here. Those places tend to have fewer openings, but they also aren't usually as prestige/law school driven. I thought I would have an easier time than I am having, but seeing posts like this from above, perhaps my experience is par for the course:

Well I am officially defeated. Worked for as a staff attorney at a litigation boutique for 2 years, but knew that the position was going to go nowhere. Became a law clerk for a federal magistrate judge for a year and then followed that with a federal district court judge for another year. Federal district court clerkship ended two months ago and haven't been close to securing a job anywhere.

Today I finally start working again.....as a sales associate at a pop-up halloween store. So while my classmates are getting married, buying homes, having kids, and making partner, I am stocking plastic masks and fake blood on the shelves of a former grocery store. I'm trying to stay positive, but I feel like every decision and opportunity I've pursued have been wrong. I thought clerking for two federal judges would help, but it seems to have made matters worse. It feels sickening knowing that I was writing the entire opinion in a discrimination case two months ago and the most substantive thing I will write at work will be .99 cent price tags.

Hope everyone else is having a better Columbus Day.

[Anonymous User]

Is there any reason why it would make sense to apply for entry level positions at firms located in a state where you're not barred in, but have strong ties to? I ended up taking the bar at my school state across the country and was wondering if it even makes sense to apply to firms at the state where I grew up and went to undergrad, if I was to tell them I would promise to take the bar in that state as soon as I can. Anyone have any success doing this?

If recent graduates of law schools in the state are having difficulty finding entry level positions, I can't imagine why a firm would even consider a candidate who isn't even currently barred and only hopes to be barred in the near future.

[baal hadad]

Is there any reason why it would make sense to apply for entry level positions at firms located in a state where you're not barred in, but have strong ties to? I ended up taking the bar at my school state across the country and was wondering if it even makes sense to apply to firms at the state where I grew up and went to undergrad, if I was to tell them I would promise to take the bar in that state as soon as I can. Anyone have any success doing this?

If recent graduates of law schools in the state are having difficulty finding entry level positions, I can't imagine why a firm would even consider a candidate who isn't even currently barred and only hopes to be barred in the near future.

Just apply

Worst they can say is no

[Anonymous User]

Does it look bad if you're in a law clerk position for a long period of time after graduation and bar passage? How important is it to start doing attorney level work, even if it's at a solo firm or pro bono or what not?

[Anonymous User]

Does it look bad if you're in a law clerk position for a long period of time after graduation and bar passage? How important is it to start doing attorney level work, even if it's at a solo firm or pro bono or what not?

I think as long as you're doing legal research and writing, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's commonly understood that it takes some time to land a legal job as a new grad.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone had success getting a job after a judge writes a rec letter? I had an employer call a federal judge I interned for as a reference, but didn't end up getting a job. I'm now asking him to write a letter for another job, but I'm not betting my life on it since the last attempt failed. Anyone else have success?

[crysmissmichelle]

Does it look bad if you're in a law clerk position for a long period of time after graduation and bar passage? How important is it to start doing attorney level work, even if it's at a solo firm or pro bono or what not?

I think as long as you're doing legal research and writing, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's commonly understood that it takes some time to land a legal job as a new grad.

I was having this conversation with an attorney at work today; his answer, and the one I keep getting is above. . .as long as it is legal work and you can sell the experience, it will not look bad. I'm hoping these answers are right!

[Anonymous User]

I just posted this as an independent thread, but perhaps this thread is a better place for it:

I got a call from a recruiter for a complex lit firm in Dallas of about 40 attorneys yesterday. I am happy with my job, so I passed. She then emailed me and said I could forward the email to interested candidates. Here it is:

"[Anon], thanks for your time on the phone today. I am looking for a 2011-2014 attorney with litigation experience for a high profile law firm in downtown Dallas. This firm requires top schools and top grades and is very highly respected in the industry. If you know someone who might have an interest, please pass on this email."

Many thanks, and Happy New Year!!!

MICHELE BIFANO, PRINCIPAL
Cell: [EDIT: REMOVED]
michele@bifanoassociates.com"

[JenDarby]

^ this will end up coming up in google if anyone googles her name. You may want to redact and provide upon a poster's request since she may or may not want her cell linked to her name on the internet.

(someone from my school posted outside the lounge TLS looking for a roommate and its one of the top hits when you search his name lol)