NY to 200k?! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin match

[Anonymous User]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Does this mean class of 2021 get 205k rather than 202.5k when they start, including for the stub year? Seen that CSM, Willkie and Skadden have released info like this too.

[Anonymous User]

Wilmer matched DPW. 202.5k officially in DC.

[Anonymous User]

No one is raising, will be calls across the board. Haven't been following all 30+ pages of this thread but unless STB dives in with a raise at the midlevel+ bracket we're not going to see any developments. Rest of the V10 and usual suspects (do not make this into a WilliamsConnolly and JD thread pls) in the v30 will match and then it's a question about what happens throughout the rest of the v50.

When is Williams just going to collapse? Their numbers don't look great:

https://www.law.com/law-firm-profile/?i ... nnolly-LLP

I feel like they're one major round of partner defections away from just imploding. They were such a cool firm back in the day when you could be litigation forward as a biglaw firm but they seem like a dinosaur in an age of exploding transactional profits. Even as a litigator why would I want to work there when I could go somewhere where I had the safety net of a robust m&a / cap mkts / debt finance etc. practice.

Williams’ salary scale (PRE-salary raises, at least.) was far ahead of what is reported on Vault. I think 4th year salary may have started with a 3. No bonuses though.). I imagine they’ll move to, albeit late and, as almost always, silently.

my understanding (speaking with knowledge, so just delete if considering deleting-anon) is that the average associate doesn’t bill nearly as many hours as the average Lit or corp associate in NYC. Take that for whatever it’s worth. there’s a reason law students still flock to the firm
notwithstanding a pretty substantial pay gap beginning year 3 or 4, which only widens as time goes on. But I agree that we are now living in a time where money talks.

This, and also speaking with knowledge - it's true WC's profits will never be as sky-high as heavy transactional firms, but they absolutely do keep up with market but just don't publicize it. It's also a "dinosaur" in that you can actually make partner there. Last I heard - and granted this was a couple years ago - midlevels could cruise at 1500-1800 hours (and you'd be making more than a lit associate at another firm in DC, because they all have hours reqs for bonuses) OR they could be doing 2200-2400 hours. Those doing 1600 hours are still making good pay and could use the preftige to jump to a government job whenever they want. Those doing 2300 hours may technically be underpaid compared to the rest of DC, but if they keep it up, are genuinely likely to make partner if they want to stick around and do that level of work. You'll never rake in $3 million/year like an STB partner, but you'll be a trial lawyer (which is what some people want in their careers) making $1 million, which is not bad at all in DC.

tldr WC is a good gig from everything I've heard.

[Anonymous User]

Do you guys think Shearman will match? Their revenue dropped like 11% last year. Hopefully they recovered well enough to match.

They've historically matched everything, even the special bonuses in the middle of the pandemic that most firms only paid out at the end of the year.

Shearman's also unique in that it used to be a v10. I get the sense it still considers itself as one of the power players, so I doubt they'd let their comp be second tier.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin match

Can confirm. Also heard that Wilmer matched.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin match

Can confirm. Also heard that Wilmer matched.

Confirming Arnold & PorTTTer has not matched

[Anonymous User]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Does this mean class of 2021 get 205k rather than 202.5k when they start, including for the stub year? Seen that CSM, Willkie and Skadden have released info like this too.

The stub year is like 10 weeks long so we're basically just talking about $480 per first-year associate. The firms that are sticking with this plan are really petty, with DPW obviously being the worst offender for coming up with it in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

No one is raising, will be calls across the board. Haven't been following all 30+ pages of this thread but unless STB dives in with a raise at the midlevel+ bracket we're not going to see any developments. Rest of the V10 and usual suspects (do not make this into a WilliamsConnolly and JD thread pls) in the v30 will match and then it's a question about what happens throughout the rest of the v50.

When is Williams just going to collapse? Their numbers don't look great:

https://www.law.com/law-firm-profile/?i ... nnolly-LLP

I feel like they're one major round of partner defections away from just imploding. They were such a cool firm back in the day when you could be litigation forward as a biglaw firm but they seem like a dinosaur in an age of exploding transactional profits. Even as a litigator why would I want to work there when I could go somewhere where I had the safety net of a robust m&a / cap mkts / debt finance etc. practice.

Williams’ salary scale (PRE-salary raises, at least.) was far ahead of what is reported on Vault. I think 4th year salary may have started with a 3. No bonuses though.). I imagine they’ll move to, albeit late and, as almost always, silently.

my understanding (speaking with knowledge, so just delete if considering deleting-anon) is that the average associate doesn’t bill nearly as many hours as the average Lit or corp associate in NYC. Take that for whatever it’s worth. there’s a reason law students still flock to the firm
notwithstanding a pretty substantial pay gap beginning year 3 or 4, which only widens as time goes on. But I agree that we are now living in a time where money talks.

This, and also speaking with knowledge - it's true WC's profits will never be as sky-high as heavy transactional firms, but they absolutely do keep up with market but just don't publicize it. It's also a "dinosaur" in that you can actually make partner there. Last I heard - and granted this was a couple years ago - midlevels could cruise at 1500-1800 hours (and you'd be making more than a lit associate at another firm in DC, because they all have hours reqs for bonuses) OR they could be doing 2200-2400 hours. Those doing 1600 hours are still making good pay and could use the preftige to jump to a government job whenever they want. Those doing 2300 hours may technically be underpaid compared to the rest of DC, but if they keep it up, are genuinely likely to make partner if they want to stick around and do that level of work. You'll never rake in $3 million/year like an STB partner, but you'll be a trial lawyer (which is what some people want in their careers) making $1 million, which is not bad at all in DC.

tldr WC is a good gig from everything I've heard.

I don't know, I get this, but this is a very specific and subtle message that you have to get across to an associate and lateral partner market inundated with noise and money. "We won't pay you as much, but you'll actually make partner, and you'll be a trial lawyer." The problem is many people will see that and think "but I could be a trial lawyer at Latham or Kirkland and make $5m per year." The response is "yes, but did you see the part about actually making partner?" But when your brand identity depends on a complex back and forth explanation it's a hard line to hold. Williams' line 20 years ago was simply "trial lawyer + $$$ + prestige." There's a shift now and I wonder how sustainable it is.

[LBJ's Hair]

This, and also speaking with knowledge - it's true WC's profits will never be as sky-high as heavy transactional firms, but they absolutely do keep up with market but just don't publicize it. It's also a "dinosaur" in that you can actually make partner there. Last I heard - and granted this was a couple years ago - midlevels could cruise at 1500-1800 hours (and you'd be making more than a lit associate at another firm in DC, because they all have hours reqs for bonuses) OR they could be doing 2200-2400 hours. Those doing 1600 hours are still making good pay and could use the preftige to jump to a government job whenever they want. Those doing 2300 hours may technically be underpaid compared to the rest of DC, but if they keep it up, are genuinely likely to make partner if they want to stick around and do that level of work. You'll never rake in $3 million/year like an STB partner, but you'll be a trial lawyer (which is what some people want in their careers) making $1 million, which is not bad at all in DC.

tldr WC is a good gig from everything I've heard.

this. if you're a midlevel who wants to like, actually make partner litigating interesting cases, W&C is the dream, not STB. STB doesn't want junior lit partners. they don't make enough money for the firm.

I don't know, I get this, but this is a very specific and subtle message that you have to get across to an associate and lateral partner market inundated with noise and money. "We won't pay you as much, but you'll actually make partner, and you'll be a trial lawyer." The problem is many people will see that and think "but I could be a trial lawyer at Latham or Kirkland and make $5m per year." The response is "yes, but did you see the part about actually making partner?" But when your brand identity depends on a complex back and forth explanation it's a hard line to hold. Williams' line 20 years ago was simply "trial lawyer + $$$ + prestige." There's a shift now and I wonder how sustainable it is.

we'll see but given the popularity of lit boutiques I do'nt think it's a particularly complicated message, and it's one that litigation juniors/midlevels -- fuck even 2Ls -- seem receptive to

[Anonymous User]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Does this mean class of 2021 get 205k rather than 202.5k when they start, including for the stub year? Seen that CSM, Willkie and Skadden have released info like this too.

Willkie explicitly said Class of 2021- $205,000

[Anonymous User]

Allen & Overy matched, stubs @ 205

[Anonymous User]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Anything from the bay area firms (mofo, wsgr, cooley,orrick)?

[lawschoolkidaz]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Anything from the bay area firms (mofo, wsgr, cooley,orrick)?

WSGR: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/wsgr-raises/

[TTTTortQueen]

Almost feels like Willkie is the "new market leader" for explicitly doing away with the stub year differential

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise match.

2021 $202,500
2020 $205,000
2019 $215,000
2018 $240,000
2017 $275,000
2016 $305,000
2015 $330,000
2014 $350,000
2013 $365,000
2012 and senior $375,000

[Anonymous User]

Almost feels like Willkie is the "new market leader" for explicitly doing away with the stub year differential

The Willkie Scale(tm)

[bigboybob]

Do you think I could ask firms to pay my salary in bitcoin/etherum or doge?

[beepboopbeep]

I don't know, I get this, but this is a very specific and subtle message that you have to get across to an associate and lateral partner market inundated with noise and money. "We won't pay you as much, but you'll actually make partner, and you'll be a trial lawyer." The problem is many people will see that and think "but I could be a trial lawyer at Latham or Kirkland and make $5m per year." The response is "yes, but did you see the part about actually making partner?" But when your brand identity depends on a complex back and forth explanation it's a hard line to hold. Williams' line 20 years ago was simply "trial lawyer + $$$ + prestige." There's a shift now and I wonder how sustainable it is.

Do you believe this, or do you work at W&C or a similar firm and are trying to shame them into paying you more? Better hours, actual partnership odds, substantive responsibility, etc. have been a pretty simple and compelling message to sharp 2Ls for years, let alone laterals who have some capacity to understand what actual partnership odds means in practice. There's a reason the top lit-focused students in T14 classes have long flocked to boutiques like W&C, MTO, etc. over corporate-focused NY megafirms.

Does W&C really do a ton of lateral hiring anyway, especially at the partner level? I'd guess that like similar firms, to the extent they're hiring non-homegrown partners at all, they are mostly coming out of government.

[Anonymous User]

So it sounds like there is no mass movement toward $205k? It seems weird for some firms to be matching DPW but some turning stub year into $205k. I would assume all would just do the latter.

[Anonymous User]

Fish & Richardson match

[Anonymous User]

Some intrepid first year with time to kill should put together a running list of firms that haven't matched and profits per partner to shame the CovingTTTons and Arnold & PorTTTers of the world into matching (like what happened in the 2018 salary wars thread).

[Anonymous User]

I don't know, I get this, but this is a very specific and subtle message that you have to get across to an associate and lateral partner market inundated with noise and money. "We won't pay you as much, but you'll actually make partner, and you'll be a trial lawyer." The problem is many people will see that and think "but I could be a trial lawyer at Latham or Kirkland and make $5m per year." The response is "yes, but did you see the part about actually making partner?" But when your brand identity depends on a complex back and forth explanation it's a hard line to hold. Williams' line 20 years ago was simply "trial lawyer + $$$ + prestige." There's a shift now and I wonder how sustainable it is.

Do you believe this, or do you work at W&C or a similar firm and are trying to shame them into paying you more? Better hours, actual partnership odds, substantive responsibility, etc. have been a pretty simple and compelling message to sharp 2Ls for years, let alone laterals who have some capacity to understand what actual partnership odds means in practice. There's a reason the top lit-focused students in T14 classes have long flocked to boutiques like W&C, MTO, etc. over corporate-focused NY megafirms.

Does W&C really do a ton of lateral hiring anyway, especially at the partner level? I'd guess that like similar firms, to the extent they're hiring non-homegrown partners at all, they are mostly coming out of government.

I genuinely believe this. I'm at an entirely different V25 (V10) that doesn't even compete with Williams on most things, so I don't have skin in the game one way or the other. Our perception of Williams is that it's an oddity and may not be around ten years from now (because it became the odd biglaw firm that got big but also stuck to lit) but it's not borne out of animosity toward them just a sense that the ground is changing under them. Would be happy to be proven wrong on that they're obviously an institution in the old legal community and have a lot of DC history, don't get my intention wrong. It's just hard to market a firm that doesn't appear to be financially competitive or tracking the growth of the industry any longer and I've seen all these same "we're special" / "we're different" arguments before at firms that then go belly up another year or two later.

[Anonymous User]

Some intrepid first year with time to kill should put together a running list of firms that haven't matched and profits per partner to shame the CovingTTTons and Arnold & PorTTTers of the world into matching (like what happened in the 2018 salary wars thread).

Covington already committed to matching. Like with everything else the firm does, it will move when the dust settles. Now that the settled market rate has become increasingly clear, I expect an announcement soon. I imagine Cov associates are hoping before July 1st.

[Anonymous User]

Some intrepid first year with time to kill should put together a running list of firms that haven't matched and profits per partner to shame the CovingTTTons and Arnold & PorTTTers of the world into matching (like what happened in the 2018 salary wars thread).

This