Personal Finance 101 for Young Lawyers Forum

[axiomaticapiary]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

After finally making some serious money in Big Law, the one splurge/fun purchase I made (other than just-a-little-more-luxury-than-necessary items, like a fancy keyboard/monitor for home office) was a nice watch (>$8k).

I know watches been covered in other threads on this board, but it's a nice combo of feels good/looks good. I don't wear it every day, which makes the days I do wear it feel a little more special. I like the weight of it on my wrist, and the little flash of the dial when I check the time surreptitiously during meetings. I like that I can check the time when I'm in a courtroom where you have to leave your cell phone with security, and I like winding it in the morning. I like how the second hand sweeps smoothly across the dial, and how the date snaps into place just after 12am. It's a totally unnecessary luxury, and there's LOTS of better things to spend Big Law money on, but that was my one big, stupid, splurge purchase. And I don't regret it!

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

After finally making some serious money in Big Law, the one splurge/fun purchase I made (other than just-a-little-more-luxury-than-necessary items, like a fancy keyboard/monitor for home office) was a nice watch (>$8k).

I know watches been covered in other threads on this board, but it's a nice combo of feels good/looks good. I don't wear it every day, which makes the days I do wear it feel a little more special. I like the weight of it on my wrist, and the little flash of the dial when I check the time surreptitiously during meetings. I like that I can check the time when I'm in a courtroom where you have to leave your cell phone with security, and I like winding it in the morning. I like how the second hand sweeps smoothly across the dial, and how the date snaps into place just after 12am. It's a totally unnecessary luxury, and there's LOTS of better things to spend Big Law money on, but that was my one big, stupid, splurge purchase. And I don't regret it!

Fully admitting this is not super unimpressive, I bought am $800 leather jacket. It feels great, I feel great in it, and I get lots of compliments on it. I read once that most clothing prices are not well correlated to material quality and durability (i.e. you're paying for styling), with the exceptions being knitwear and leather, and that's certainly been my experience.

Know someone who used their bonus to fly to Copenhagen for the weekend and have a meal at NOMA, though. That's splashy.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

Genuine answer: decided to bite the bullet and hit my healthcare insurance's $5,000 out of pocket maximum by receiving top-of-the-line therapeutic/psychiatric/full-service care. Besides that, spent a bunch of money on Skims (I'm a woman), and buying random flights to see friends whenever I feel like it, basically regardless of cost. Regret none of these things.

[Anonymous User]

Fully admitting this is not super unimpressive, I bought am $800 leather jacket. It feels great, I feel great in it, and I get lots of compliments on it. I read once that most clothing prices are not well correlated to material quality and durability (i.e. you're paying for styling), with the exceptions being knitwear and leather, and that's certainly been my experience.

My big spending was on high-end suits (like 2k+), shirts ($300+), and bespoke shoes. I figured they count as work-related investments, to look good and feel good. It's a lot like spending $$$ on watches. A well-fitted suit in nice materials, paired with a good pair of shoes, is obvious to a trained eye.

Oh, and some paintings for my office.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

Bought a Tesla

[mwells_56]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

Haven't done it yet but one of these days, probably once I get a house, I'm blowing at least $5,000 - $7,000 on a killer gaming setup.

[Anonymous User]

Close to $10k at the strippers one night.

[Anonymous User]

Returning to the main subject, I am beginning to steel myself to try to "buy the dip." Any particular ETFs folks around here like? I'm already heavily invested in a tech-heavy S&P by Vanguard (VOO).

I know a lot of these ETFs are similar, but wondering if there are others that knowledgeable people here may recommend -- maybe something with a mix of international or bond exposure? I could just pile more money into VOO, but I'm sooo down for the year (and really, really do not trust Elon Musk and Tesla...) that I kind of want to put some money somewhere else.

[nealric]

Returning to the main subject, I am beginning to steel myself to try to "buy the dip." Any particular ETFs folks around here like? I'm already heavily invested in a tech-heavy S&P by Vanguard (VOO).

I know a lot of these ETFs are similar, but wondering if there are others that knowledgeable people here may recommend -- maybe something with a mix of international or bond exposure? I could just pile more money into VOO, but I'm sooo down for the year (and really, really do not trust Elon Musk and Tesla...) that I kind of want to put some money somewhere else.

You can do VT if you want some international, or VTI if you want to add some smaller cap exposure.

[nealric]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

I'm in-house now, but I had a good equity event recently and bought a 1967 Alfa Romeo GT (to compliment my 1986 Spider).

[Anonymous User]

Returning to the main subject, I am beginning to steel myself to try to "buy the dip." Any particular ETFs folks around here like? I'm already heavily invested in a tech-heavy S&P by Vanguard (VOO).

I know a lot of these ETFs are similar, but wondering if there are others that knowledgeable people here may recommend -- maybe something with a mix of international or bond exposure? I could just pile more money into VOO, but I'm sooo down for the year (and really, really do not trust Elon Musk and Tesla...) that I kind of want to put some money somewhere else.

You can do VT if you want some international, or VTI if you want to add some smaller cap exposure.

Thanks, I'll look into those. Here's hoping the next recovery (whenever it actually begins) is as short as the last few were!

[championpyro]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

My splurges are going to be weekend or extended weekend trips. If you have remote work flexibility, take advantage of it. You can still work from a hotel on a Saturday morning if you need to, but spend the afternoon and evening exploring a new place.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

Background: I have just received an offer from a V20 that, if accepted, will pay me $3,700 a week next summer. I am 27 years old and I have never made more than $25,000 in a year. I am well aware that this forum typically takes a fairly conservative view of money and would recommend paying off student loan debt or investing in index funds, but I find it hard to believe that you have all been THAT financially conservative for your entire lives -- at least those of you, like me, that didn't grow up poor but do come from the public school/Applebee's/summer-vacation-to-see-Grandma-in-the-Midwest suburban middle class.

What kinds of dumb, fun stuff have you spent your huge piles of money on? Any recommendations? Bonus challenge: answer without telling me I'm going to be miserable in biglaw.

I spend a lot of time in Vegas, like 3-5 trips a year. Some with friends, some with my wife, some with family. I probably drop $5-7 thousand each trip between flights, hotels, gambling, clubs, shows and nice dinners. When I think about the fact that I have probably spent $100k on vegas trips in the last 4-5 years, its a bit scary. I always justify it by saying I will give it up when I leave biglaw.

[RedNewJersey]

I'm already heavily invested in a tech-heavy S&P by Vanguard (VOO).

I'm puzzled by this statement, because VOO just tracks the S&P 500, which is essentially the largest 500 companies weighted by market capitalization, and not what I'd call a "tech-heavy" ETF. Sure, it happens that tech companies now are a large component, but that's because they have a high market capitalization, not because of any choices by Vanguard.

That said, don't try to time the market. Just put money into your favorite broad-based index fund (VOO is fine) and leave it there. If you would find it difficult to just buy-in now with everything you've reserved (arguably the optimal strategy), consider setting up a plan to invest a set amount at set times, and follow that plan.

[Anonymous User]

That said, don't try to time the market. Just put money into your favorite broad-based index fund (VOO is fine) and leave it there. If you would find it difficult to just buy-in now with everything you've reserved (arguably the optimal strategy), consider setting up a plan to invest a set amount at set times, and follow that plan.

It's hard to justify this if you're a non-sophisticated investor (or don't have access to someone who can help set up a "plan"). I finally started making real money in the last 2 years. I put a big chunk into a broad-based ETF starting last year, and am now down $40,000. It's been a downhill disaster as soon as I entered the market.

Now, I understand the principle that you don't sell at a loss, and you keep the money in the market even when it's sliding, but at this rate, it would take a long time just to recoup the lost $40,000 and get to where I was when I entered the market. And it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon. Most experts believe the period of robust stock market growth in the last decade is now over, that that decade was unusual and likely aberrant.

So it's one thing to not take the money out, it's another to keep putting MORE money in. At this point, alternative investments are no longer more risky, or less reliable. We're entering a period (or have already) where broad-based ETFs like VOO are just as unreliable and risky as less vanilla investment options, but also more tepid. So it's a lose-lose.

[Wanderingdrock]

That said, don't try to time the market. Just put money into your favorite broad-based index fund (VOO is fine) and leave it there. If you would find it difficult to just buy-in now with everything you've reserved (arguably the optimal strategy), consider setting up a plan to invest a set amount at set times, and follow that plan.

It's hard to justify this if you're a non-sophisticated investor (or don't have access to someone who can help set up a "plan"). I finally started making real money in the last 2 years. I put a big chunk into a broad-based ETF starting last year, and am now down $40,000. It's been a downhill disaster as soon as I entered the market.

Now, I understand the principle that you don't sell at a loss, and you keep the money in the market even when it's sliding, but at this rate, it would take a long time just to recoup the lost $40,000 and get to where I was when I entered the market. And it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon. Most experts believe the period of robust stock market growth in the last decade is now over, that that decade was unusual and likely aberrant.

So it's one thing to not take the money out, it's another to keep putting MORE money in. At this point, alternative investments are no longer more risky, or less reliable. We're entering a period (or have already) where broad-based ETFs like VOO are just as unreliable and risky as less vanilla investment options, but also more tepid. So it's a lose-lose.

Lot of fallacies in here, but the bolded statements are the biggest "HUH??"s to me. The point of the poster you're quoting is that if you're an unsophisticated or risk-averse investor, just set up a plan to invest a set amount every so often - literally, like "Every two weeks I will buy $2,000 of VOO." Boom, that's it. It's nothing you need an advisor for. And it illustrates why your comment is such a big "HUH??" You're supposed to continue investing. Yes, the best wisdom is to invest everything you've got all at once.... but when your next paycheck comes, you should do that again. You're down $40,000? Cool! It's a good thing you've got a job where you can continue investing, taking advantage of the market being down! If you're young enough to be posting here, you're early enough in your career to still have a while to invest, so don't worry if last decade was an aberration. Your investments will come back, and you'll see even better growth over the next 20, 30 years with what you put in now and over the next few years, even if indeed you're right and stock market growth is anemic.

[Anonymous User]

Reviving this thread.

If someone plans to do 2-3 years in biglaw, and then go in-house or to government, does it make more sense to invest their money or to save it? Especially with the market being down so much.

[showusyourtorts]

Reviving this thread.

If someone plans to do 2-3 years in biglaw, and then go in-house or to government, does it make more sense to invest their money or to save it? Especially with the market being down so much.

First of all, make sure that you have a fully stocked emergency fund. The typical advice is around six months' worth of expenses. The other easy answer here is to make sure to maximize your pre-tax 401k and your IRA (and your HSA, if your insurance plan allows for it). Those investments are tax advantaged and generally always make sense to take advantage of if you have the cash flow for it.

Beyond that, I think at least part of this response will have to do with whether you have any short or medium term goals for your savings. Do you plan to buy a house or have a wedding in the next three/five years or so? If so, most people will probably recommend saving the money in a high yield saving account (or, at most, purchasing relatively safe bond investments). The general rule of thumb is to avoid investing in equities (or indexes that track equity markets) if you're planning on basically needing to pull the money within five years.

You'll also want to consider what your likely future income and future expenses will be. If you're leaning more towards government, which I imagine generally pays less than in-house, then you will want to be more cautious. If you think you're more likely to go in-house, then that affords you some more leeway given that you could somewhat safely count on probably at least ~130k salary, which could likely cover most individual's expenses if you're not balling out. Similarly, if you already own a home and are trapped in very expensive mortgage payments, then that cuts towards saving so that you'll be able to more safely meet your high annual expenses, whereas renters can more deftly adjust their annual expenses by downsizing.

Of course, if you have good backup sources of cash (i.e., parents could cover wedding costs or down payments in a down market, help if you get fired, etc.), then that makes it less scary to invest in the market. Conversely, if you're somewhat set on going into government practice, and especially if you don't have family wealth, then you may want to be more risk-averse and avoid investing your savings in equities.

These factors are magnified by each other. For example, I'm a single person in my late 20's that has no plans to buy a house or have a wedding or child, and I don't own any assets, and I can move into my parents' house to reduce rent expenses if absolutely necessary. I'm a prime candidate to invest extra beyond my emergency fund.

One other consideration is that biglaw can be very, very difficult, and it's nice to have the peace of mind knowing that you can leave whenever you need to. For that reason, a lot of young associates may leave a good chunk of cash in the bank just for their own peace of mind. That's because making the "right" investment moves produces peanuts when compared to making moves that increase your runway time in biglaw. So if having cash in the bank gives you peace of mind that lets you stay longer in biglaw with less stress, then it's almost certainly worth doing that, even just from a strictly financial perspective. Finances aside, it's also obviously nice to have that peace of mind.

Also, to the extent you do decide to invest beyond your 401k/IRA/HSA, look into whether your firm offers a mega backdoor roth option.

Annnd.. it's funny, but I'm not sure which way you intend for your last sentence -- "Especially with the market being down so much" -- to cut. I think that, if anything, that cuts toward being more willing to invest. But I suspect you may intend for it to imply the opposite. In any case, I don't think the market's current performance should make much (if any) of a difference in your approach to this question.

[nealric]

Reviving this thread.

If someone plans to do 2-3 years in biglaw, and then go in-house or to government, does it make more sense to invest their money or to save it? Especially with the market being down so much.

As the other poster said, you should make sure you have a good emergency fund first. It's a matter of personal preference how much you should have, but you don't want to be worried about paying rent if you are laid off without warning. I like to keep at least 6months cash on hand in case of emergency.

Once you've cleared that hurdle, there's no reason not to invest the remainder. That remainder can also be deployed in an emergency as well. Investing now while you are young and the money has time to grow is the best time to do it. Savings will likely be much harder if you find yourself with a government job and a bunch of family obligation down the line.

[Anonymous User]

Annnd.. it's funny, but I'm not sure which way you intend for your last sentence -- "Especially with the market being down so much" -- to cut. I think that, if anything, that cuts toward being more willing to invest. But I suspect you may intend for it to imply the opposite. In any case, I don't think the market's current performance should make much (if any) of a difference in your approach to this question.

Agree with this entirely. The point of putting money in the market is for it to sit there for a long time. Paying attention to the more immediate ups and downs just makes you crazy and shouldn’t really be a consideration for how much you put in.

[Anonymous User]

Some of the last few comments do make sense, but as others have noted, with the stock market, past performance does not equal future results, and the market is not likely to have the steady climb it's had in the last 10-odd years (and especially not anything like the big spike in 2020). Just something to keep in mind.

Anyone have non-tech heavy ETFs they like? I'd getting ready to buy the dip (I just have too much cash sitting in a savings account right now. I don't necessarily want to put it into such a volatile market, but I don't know what else to do with it!). My current allocation is too tech-heavy, but as a lawyer I obviously can't just pick and choose specific stocks. If there are other indexes people like, give em a shoutout!

[dabigchina]

I guess this is the opposite of what people want to talk about in this thread, but what kinds of fun stuff, if any, have people blown their biglaw paychecks on?

I'm in-house now, but I had a good equity event recently and bought a 1967 Alfa Romeo GT (to compliment my 1986 Spider).

Nice, but I coulda sworn you were a Subaru guy!

[Ultramar vistas]

Some of the last few comments do make sense, but as others have noted, with the stock market, past performance does not equal future results, and the market is not likely to have the steady climb it's had in the last 10-odd years (and especially not anything like the big spike in 2020). Just something to keep in mind.

Anyone have non-tech heavy ETFs they like? I'd getting ready to buy the dip (I just have too much cash sitting in a savings account right now. I don't necessarily want to put it into such a volatile market, but I don't know what else to do with it!). My current allocation is too tech-heavy, but as a lawyer I obviously can't just pick and choose specific stocks. If there are other indexes people like, give em a shoutout!

I know it’s not as fun as picking individual ETFs, but the most “rational” thing for you to do here is to dollar cost average into a broad market index. If you are worried about timing the market and you have, for example, $50,000 in your savings that you want to invest, just set an automatic investment of $1000 a week into SPY and you’ll capture the average of the S&P500 from now until September 2023.

[DisappointedSummer]

Gotta love the objectively terrible advice being given out with the qualifiers like the most “rational” - most rational thing to do is ALWAYS lump sum, throw it all in as soon as you get it to broad based mutual fund, don’t ever try to time the market. Spreading it out over time is for the weak, sensitive pearl-clutchers who can’t handle the thought of an investment going down. All you’re doing it playing to irrational emotional fears which should be confronted and ignored, not enabled. You are missing out on market returns the longer you stay on the sidelines. Don’t be a pussy - and definitely don’t be like the poster above me who claims this idiotic approach is “the most rational thing” - no you’re just acting like a timid coward, because you are one.

Because I know people will rush to defend themselves: NO, I’m not saying invest all your money all the time. Obviously keep out an emergency fund, and shorter term goals. But for the money that you do plan to invest, INVEST IT - keeping it sitting in cash is pure idiocy. I am constantly impressed at the level of abject stupidity on this board when it comes to basic financial advice.