Summer Associates 2014: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[jbagelboy]

Do most firms also offer paternity leave? At my firm, an associate was able to take like 3 weeks paternity.

I was told in confidence that men who take paternity leave are actively mocked at my firm, even though it is offered.

"LOL, get a load of this guy, trying to be a good father!" I'm not denying that this is true, I'm sure it is, but as someone about to go through OCI who would also like to start a family in the medium term (4-5 years from now), it's pretty disheartening and I have to imagine helps lead to early burnout.

Lets be real though. We take paternity leave as an excuse so we can drink beer all day, watch football and play video games. Wifey can handle the baby.

That's not representative, especially if your wife is also a high powered professional. Lots of working parents actually share the burden, and paternity leave is more of a progressive recognition that men, not just women, should be responsible (and make the appropriate career sacrifices/moves) to contribute to family life. It's retrograde to make one of equal partners shoulder that entire freight.

If you just have a stay at home mom/wife, then yea paternity leave, meh, pretty stupid. But it's crucial for two working parents.

[Anonymous User]

That's not representative, especially if your wife is also a high powered professional. Lots of working parents actually share the burden, and paternity leave is more of a progressive recognition that men, not just women, should be responsible (and make the appropriate career sacrifices/moves) to contribute to family life. It's retrograde to make one of equal partners shoulder that entire freight.

If you just have a stay at home mom/wife, then yea paternity leave, meh, pretty stupid. But it's crucial for two working parents.

Lol at being two working parents and not hiring a nanny.

Woops, sorry this wasn't meant to be anon, this is fruitlobber

[jbagelboy]

That's not representative, especially if your wife is also a high powered professional. Lots of working parents actually share the burden, and paternity leave is more of a progressive recognition that men, not just women, should be responsible (and make the appropriate career sacrifices/moves) to contribute to family life. It's retrograde to make one of equal partners shoulder that entire freight.

If you just have a stay at home mom/wife, then yea paternity leave, meh, pretty stupid. But it's crucial for two working parents.

Lol at being two working parents and not hiring a nanny.

Woops, sorry this wasn't meant to be anon, this is fruitlobber

Sure, when the kid is 3. But for a new-born, not so easy - also not positive developmentally. Anyway, it was unnecessary for me to go off on this topic, esp over a joke, so I apologize - I just find the whole "you're a pussy if you care about helping your wife and kid" schtick rather fratty and obnoxious. If only tls wasn't 85% male lol

[rpupkin]

That's not representative, especially if your wife is also a high powered professional. Lots of working parents actually share the burden, and paternity leave is more of a progressive recognition that men, not just women, should be responsible (and make the appropriate career sacrifices/moves) to contribute to family life. It's retrograde to make one of equal partners shoulder that entire freight.

If you just have a stay at home mom/wife, then yea paternity leave, meh, pretty stupid. But it's crucial for two working parents.

Lol at being two working parents and not hiring a nanny.

Who said anything about not hiring a nanny? Even with a nanny, there's still plenty of work to do for two working parents. Also, you don't bring a nanny home with you from the hospital with your newborn. During the first few weeks (when maternity and paternity leave are relevant), it's usually just the parents and the baby.

[fruitlobber]

If you're both in biglaw or in similar careers the kid is going to be neglected and/or fucked up in the long run anyways. Just accept that reality and start him off with a nanny so that can be his or her real mom.

[Anonymous User]

my folks were both medical residents when i was a kid, so there wasn't much pay-attention-to-the-kid time. if you're not going to hire a nanny, leave the kid at the library or a friend's place

[Danger Zone]

Do most firms also offer paternity leave? At my firm, an associate was able to take like 3 weeks paternity.

I was told in confidence that men who take paternity leave are actively mocked at my firm, even though it is offered.

"LOL, get a load of this guy, trying to be a good father!" I'm not denying that this is true, I'm sure it is, but as someone about to go through OCI who would also like to start a family in the medium term (4-5 years from now), it's pretty disheartening and I have to imagine helps lead to early burnout.

Welcome to working at a law firm.

[jbagelboy]

Do most firms also offer paternity leave? At my firm, an associate was able to take like 3 weeks paternity.

I was told in confidence that men who take paternity leave are actively mocked at my firm, even though it is offered.

"LOL, get a load of this guy, trying to be a good father!" I'm not denying that this is true, I'm sure it is, but as someone about to go through OCI who would also like to start a family in the medium term (4-5 years from now), it's pretty disheartening and I have to imagine helps lead to early burnout.

Welcome to working at a law firm.

other associates (the type that would harass about leave), esp single midlevels, are probably just miserable about their own personal lives and projecting when someone has a source of happiness (or a source of anything) in their life beyond work

[5ky]

Do most firms also offer paternity leave? At my firm, an associate was able to take like 3 weeks paternity.

I was told in confidence that men who take paternity leave are actively mocked at my firm, even though it is offered.

"LOL, get a load of this guy, trying to be a good father!" I'm not denying that this is true, I'm sure it is, but as someone about to go through OCI who would also like to start a family in the medium term (4-5 years from now), it's pretty disheartening and I have to imagine helps lead to early burnout.

Welcome to working at a law firm.

Idk bro, that isn't the vibe at my firm at all. Your culture sounds pretty miserable to me.

[Danger Zone]

Nah the culture is hilarious. Everyone gets mocked for one reason or another

[dixiecupdrinking]

Do most firms also offer paternity leave? At my firm, an associate was able to take like 3 weeks paternity.

I was told in confidence that men who take paternity leave are actively mocked at my firm, even though it is offered.

"LOL, get a load of this guy, trying to be a good father!" I'm not denying that this is true, I'm sure it is, but as someone about to go through OCI who would also like to start a family in the medium term (4-5 years from now), it's pretty disheartening and I have to imagine helps lead to early burnout.

Welcome to working at a law firm.

Really not universal at all. As long as you're cool with this attitude then more power to you, but don't make the mistake of thinking this is how it has to be.

[Anonymous User]

It's inconvenient if someone you used to do work with suddenly leaves for a while. The mother is actually operated on. Yes, kids are work but it's like someone saying oh my god I'm so sweaty, my friend had to run 10 miles.

I think that's a bad example. A child is (usually) a joint endeavor. One person does the heavy lifting, but once it passes through the birth canal that becomes a full on team effort. Plus a case could be made that the father taking leave allows the mother to recover while he handles the flare ups.

Same poster. I'm just a summer, but delivering the baby is the big deal. Raising a baby is time consuming, but you're getting a big law salary so the man could pay for help. As the male, I don't need to be with the baby every night, but just know all is taken care of. I might be a minority, and don't speak for others or my perception of others. Personally, I was never a gunner, didn't study too hard to get good grades in law school, but this is so much money. Maybe it's a poor man's mentality, but I see it as though they're financing having a good family, and I'll damn well go to work as long as I don't have surgery.

Yes, I get it being a two team effort is the basis for the equal treatment legality about paternity leave. I understand the logic. That doesn't mean I think the law is correct.

[5ky]

It's inconvenient if someone you used to do work with suddenly leaves for a while. The mother is actually operated on. Yes, kids are work but it's like someone saying oh my god I'm so sweaty, my friend had to run 10 miles.

I think that's a bad example. A child is (usually) a joint endeavor. One person does the heavy lifting, but once it passes through the birth canal that becomes a full on team effort. Plus a case could be made that the father taking leave allows the mother to recover while he handles the flare ups.

Same poster. I'm just a summer, but delivering the baby is the big deal. Raising a baby is time consuming, but you're getting a big law salary so the man could pay for help. As the male, I don't need to be with the baby every night, but just know all is taken care of. I might be a minority, and don't speak for others or my perception of others. Personally, I was never a gunner, didn't study too hard to get good grades in law school, but this is so much money. Maybe it's a poor man's mentality, but I see it as though they're financing having a good family, and I'll damn well go to work as long as I don't have surgery.

Yes, I get it being a two team effort is the basis for the equal treatment legality about paternity leave. I understand the logic. That doesn't mean I think the law is correct.

I look forward to your thoughts on the matter after 2-3 years in biglaw

[Anonymous User]

But answer this -

What percentage of the women you graduated with who struckout have jobs paying them maternity leave?

That doesn't make you feel weird getting paternity leave? There's no way that the man has it worse than woman in child rearing. At worst it's equal.

[5ky]

But answer this -

What percentage of the women you graduated with who struckout have jobs paying them maternity leave?

That doesn't make you feel weird getting paternity leave? There's no way that the man has it worse than woman in child rearing. At worst it's equal.

I have considered your question multiple times and have no idea what you are asking or what your point is.

No, I would not feel weird taking paternity leave, knowing that there are people in the USA who aren't getting paid maternity leave. That's not how laws work.

[Lincoln]

Just to clarify: I went to a class at the gym and was stuck around when offered a comped 1-hour personal training session (sidenote: not sure if the trainer just thought I was a surefire repeat customer or that I was fat as hell and needed the extra work). Being in the office late was incidental, but I felt bad because I didn't think I would be there for more than ~30 minutes. Ended up there for an hour and a half, so I should have just ordered food.

The real danger here is not the dinner; it's the staying late. If you're a summer, working late is weird unless a partner or associate has specifically asked you to stay late and/or you have a real deadline to meet. My firm generally makes offers to all of its summers, but if we had to cull the herd I think we'd start with the summers who consistently stay late for no reason.

My summer is still at the office and it's expected where I work, cause we give summers real work, so don't go scaring them all with your generalizations.

Fair point. Just curious: do you work at a large law firm?

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

[Pleasye]

Lol at first I thought brotherdarkness was posting anonymous.

[Valley of the Deer]

Lol at first I thought brotherdarkness was posting anonymous.

[Anonymous User]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

[Anonymous User]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I know many NYC SAs who leave before 6:15, though not daily.

[Anonymous User]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I'm an SA in LA and I have yet to stay in the office past 6pm (and no weekends). It's pretty sweet.

[Anonymous User]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

whoa. that sucks. I hope this wasn't expected of me for an offer, cause I sure as shit don't stay much past 6 unless I'm working on something rush or due that next morning which I haven't finished, which only happens once or twice a week.

[fl0w]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I'm an SA in LA and I have yet to stay in the office past 6pm (and no weekends). It's pretty sweet.

California dreams.
CA Bar Exam nightmares.

[Anonymous User]

for the other 1L SAs in the house: what is the protocol for networking/CB's at other firms in prep for OCI? I don't get any "days off," but I could pretty easily fib an AM dentist appointment or something (I actually really do need to go to the dentist, ironically). Feels disingenuous, but I really would like to finish some callback's before heading back to school since I'm in a big market this summer with offices that don't show up for on campus interviews. Too risky? I don't want to piss off the firm I'm at since I like it.

[Anonymous User]

ETA: The only firms I've heard of where summers are "expected" to work late are very small firms with idiosyncratic cultures (where they may only have one or two SAs), and a couple of the huge NYC sweatshops where it's part of the culture for all the summers to work late. If you're at the latter, you'll know it.

In any case, you're right that I was over-generalizing; SAs should of course pay attention to firm culture.

I work at a V5 in NYC.

"very small firms", "idiosyncratic"??? Pupkin, I work at a V40 where the NYC office has 400+a attorneys, SA class is > 50, and I have a bunch of friends out here who, like me, have staggered home past 9 pm on several occasions. We don't leave before 7 pm. I don't know any NYC SA who leaves shop before 6:15 pm. I guess it's a whole lot cushier outside of NYC.

I'm at a V5 and plenty of us have had late nights and all-nighters.