School OCI Data Forum

[Anonymous User]

T20. Transfer student. 21 preselects. Utter disbelief.

[seespotrun]

T20. Transfer student. 21 preselects. Utter disbelief.

pleb.

[Aberzombie1892]

emory's "second round" of oci (in sept) is 5 employers. only one is a (midsize) firm. LOL.

What accounts for the huge decrease from last year? If I recall (from some pdf posted a few weeks ago on this thread), last year had much more than 5 for september.

Most of the threads about Emory emphasized how their career services people are crap. A lot of people here speculated that it was actually the schools in the middle (14-50), rather than the lower-tiered schools, that would suffer the most. We know that the top 14 or so schools can decently weather the recession (as loosely as one wants to define weather - I know some in the lower-tiered T14 hasn't been so hot). In contrast, the lower ranked schools are used to relying on local/regional law firms to get their students jobs - regardless of the economic climate.

It's the upper-middle tier, which used to funnel the top 1/3 of their grads into biglaw, that now have to funnel to smaller regional law - which is a whole different type of beast. Thus, at least ITE, career services actually matters in recruiting a broader spectrum of recruiters for upper-middle tier schools.

This is the best explanation I have heard. I remember reading somewhere that Emory did not have good relationships with mid and smaller size law firms.

My point in referencing this is that the rankings really don't mean too much beyond the T14/Vandy. By that, I mean that the rankings are not a straight line down. For example: while it appears as though Emory may still have a higher chance of Big Law than Tulane (which I think will be doubtful for the students that are going through OCI now and future classes), Tulane has a higher chance of getting a legal job (firms of 50+ lawyers and other legal jobs) than Emory.

On a separate note, the chart floating around with the T14s placement into big law is so screwed up that I wish that the creators of it would just remove it. I say that because the schools numbers mean different things (some schools percentages are for the entire class that got big law and other schools percentages are only for the part of the class that participated). As you can imagine, this causes confusion among 0L's and people seem to think that CCN are doing way better than BMVP. We really don't have any hard numbers. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speculate, but when you have hard percentages in chart form, people generally take it as gospel. Ultimately, CCN's placement is only marginally higher than MVP's placement. It will likely continue to be this way.

[2009 Prospective]

I'd be curious to know how many employers Georgia State is pulling in this summer with all these reports of a meager OCI at Emory.

[let/them/eat/cake]

emory's "second round" of oci (in sept) is 5 employers. only one is a (midsize) firm. LOL.

What accounts for the huge decrease from last year? If I recall (from some pdf posted a few weeks ago on this thread), last year had much more than 5 for september.

Most of the threads about Emory emphasized how their career services people are crap. A lot of people here speculated that it was actually the schools in the middle (14-50), rather than the lower-tiered schools, that would suffer the most. We know that the top 14 or so schools can decently weather the recession (as loosely as one wants to define weather - I know some in the lower-tiered T14 hasn't been so hot). In contrast, the lower ranked schools are used to relying on local/regional law firms to get their students jobs - regardless of the economic climate.

It's the upper-middle tier, which used to funnel the top 1/3 of their grads into biglaw, that now have to funnel to smaller regional law - which is a whole different type of beast. Thus, at least ITE, career services actually matters in recruiting a broader spectrum of recruiters for upper-middle tier schools.

This is the best explanation I have heard. I remember reading somewhere that Emory did not have good relationships with mid and smaller size law firms.

My point in referencing this is that the rankings really don't mean too much beyond the T14/Vandy. By that, I mean that the rankings are not a straight line down. For example: while it appears as though Emory may still have a higher chance of Big Law than Tulane (which I think will be doubtful for the students that are going through OCI now and future classes), Tulane has a higher chance of getting a legal job (firms of 50+ lawyers and other legal jobs) than Emory.

On a separate note, the chart floating around with the T14s placement into big law is so screwed up that I wish that the creators of it would just remove it. I say that because the schools numbers mean different things (some schools percentages are for the entire class that got big law and other schools percentages are only for the part of the class that participated). As you can imagine, this causes confusion among 0L's and people seem to think that CCN are doing way better than BMVP. We really don't have any hard numbers. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speculate, but when you have hard percentages in chart form, people generally take it as gospel. Ultimately, CCN's placement is only marginally higher than MVP's placement. It will likely continue to be this way.

don't know if i believe that, at least for the last few years. even if it is CCN data for the whole class vs. MVP data for only OCI participants, i actually believe the numbers are comparable: MVP students who want biglaw would usu get it through OCI, if they don't it is probably a marginal amount that get it via resume bombing. maybe you are right and the chart is worthless but i remember going through the data and discussion of said data and thinking "well wow that is quite a difference"--15-20 percentage points difference in placement is significant, no matter which way you slice it. i'll even concede a few points for outside OCI biglaw hiring and i'd still say that 10 percentage points is not "marginal."

[Blindmelon]

+ 1 to let/them/eat/cake.

Emory seems to be disproportionaly killed OCI wise compared to its peers (at least BC/BU as I know of now have at least double the amount of firms at OCI).
This probably has to do with the fact that consistantly, Emory has had a 10% or so less placement into big firms than GW/Fordham/BC/BU. Now with the recession, NY employers would look more to NE regionals (Fordham), DC to their schools (GW) and T14s than having to go to Emory. Unlike Fordham/GW/BC/BU, etc. Emory is not the strongest school in the region (UGA) and the market isn't big enough to handle the both (like Boston sort of is).

[emorystud2010]

.

[lawschoollll]

don't know if i believe that, at least for the last few years. even if it is CCN data for the whole class vs. MVP data for only OCI participants, i actually believe the numbers are comparable: MVP students who want biglaw would usu get it through OCI, if they don't it is probably a marginal amount that get it via resume bombing. maybe you are right and the chart is worthless but i remember going through the data and discussion of said data and thinking "well wow that is quite a difference"--15-20 percentage points difference in placement is significant, no matter which way you slice it. i'll even concede a few points for outside OCI biglaw hiring and i'd still say that 10 percentage points is not "marginal."

Not sure I'll believe this until we even see *any* numbers for VP. IIRC, even M's numbers were just kind of thrown up there with, to say the least, a less than stringent verification process.

[rayiner]

+ 1 to let/them/eat/cake.

Emory seems to be disproportionaly killed OCI wise compared to its peers (at least BC/BU as I know of now have at least double the amount of firms at OCI).
This probably has to do with the fact that consistantly, Emory has had a 10% or so less placement into big firms than GW/Fordham/BC/BU. Now with the recession, NY employers would look more to NE regionals (Fordham), DC to their schools (GW) and T14s than having to go to Emory. Unlike Fordham/GW/BC/BU, etc. Emory is not the strongest school in the region (UGA) and the market isn't big enough to handle the both (like Boston sort of is).

In other words, I'm 3 yrs away from throwing myself off the side of spaghetti junction. Awesome. Well, it was either Emory or Iowa...where dreams go to die.

If your plans are pinned on OCI success, may I suggest reconsidering law school instead?

[romothesavior]

I'd be curious to know how many employers Georgia State is pulling in this summer with all these reports of a meager OCI at Emory.

The PD's office may be doing a resume collect? But other than that...

[let/them/eat/cake]

don't know if i believe that, at least for the last few years. even if it is CCN data for the whole class vs. MVP data for only OCI participants, i actually believe the numbers are comparable: MVP students who want biglaw would usu get it through OCI, if they don't it is probably a marginal amount that get it via resume bombing. maybe you are right and the chart is worthless but i remember going through the data and discussion of said data and thinking "well wow that is quite a difference"--15-20 percentage points difference in placement is significant, no matter which way you slice it. i'll even concede a few points for outside OCI biglaw hiring and i'd still say that 10 percentage points is not "marginal."

Not sure I'll believe this until we even see *any* numbers for VP. IIRC, even M's numbers were just kind of thrown up there with, to say the least, a less than stringent verification process.

mehhh, i thought we had solid numbers for V? and it seemed that no matter how M's numbers came out, they weren't going to be being V. P was kind of a black box, yeah....

frankly, whatever, i don't feel like going back through the thread. i can only say that when i had been parsing the data and following the discussion a couple weeks ago i found it to be a very believable and legitimate difference between the two 'tiers'. if someone else wants to go back and prove me right/wrong, more power to you. My 3-day AJF in NYC starts tomorrow, and i've got a whole slew of interviews on day 1, so i've got bigger fish to fry at this point.

[lawschoollll]

So far, if I remember correctly, we have the following for hard stats:

Yale - 100% SA placement*
Harvard - 100% SA placement*
Stanford - 100% SA placement*
Columbia - 69% SA placement
NYU - 69% SA placement
Chicago - 69% SA placement
Berkeley - 40% SA placement
Virginia - XX% SA placement
Penn - XX% SA placement
Michigan - 50% SA placement
Northwestern - XX% SA placement
Duke - XX% SA placement
Cornell - 43% SA placement
Georgetown - XX% SA placement

*Potential placement.

I propose we fill in the stats for the rest of the T14 with actual hard data. Would people from the remaining schools do what they can to get some good information? This could be really helpful for future 0Ls deciding between schools.

I am pretty sure CLS and NYU placed 67 percent. Not that the difference is particularly significant, but I just thought I'd note it.

These placement differentials really invalidate what I used to think, i.e. that there was no meaningful difference between CCN and MPBV. 19 percent differential between Michigan and Chicago? Good God, that's step.

Where did the 50% at Michigan come from? I wouldn't be surprised if that was the actual number, but I thought the Mich estimate was based on extrapolations from the # of offers extended....

And the CLS # was placement of OCI participants, so not 100% comparable.

I have no idea where the 50 percent figure comes from. I'd venture to guess that someone that goes to Michigan posted it, much like students from other schools shared figures their OCSs released.

Isn't every number here reflective of the placement of OCI participants? Ours certainly is and I was assuming - perhaps erroneously - that such was the case with all of them.

I believe this is the most recent iteration of the chart. Looks pretty unreliable w/r/t MVP.

[Veyron]

I am curious to hear the Penn #'s. I've heard tell of 60-65% biglaw placement (total, not just thru OCI), can anyone verify?

Also, where are you guys getting these other numbers?

[BunkMoreland]

is anyone gonna create an OCI callback/success/failure thread like last year now that things are basically underway?

[98234872348]

+ 1 to let/them/eat/cake.

Emory seems to be disproportionaly killed OCI wise compared to its peers (at least BC/BU as I know of now have at least double the amount of firms at OCI).
This probably has to do with the fact that consistantly, Emory has had a 10% or so less placement into big firms than GW/Fordham/BC/BU. Now with the recession, NY employers would look more to NE regionals (Fordham), DC to their schools (GW) and T14s than having to go to Emory. Unlike Fordham/GW/BC/BU, etc. Emory is not the strongest school in the region (UGA) and the market isn't big enough to handle the both (like Boston sort of is).

In other words, I'm 3 yrs away from throwing myself off the side of spaghetti junction. Awesome. Well, it was either Emory or Iowa...where dreams go to die.

If your plans are pinned on OCI success getting a job, may I suggest reconsidering law school instead?

fixed.

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotal, rising 2L @ Wayne State University (in Detroit, MI) says that there are 37 employers attending OCI this fall.

I haven't seen the data from a lot of higher ranked schools, but as a rising 1L, it encourages me that my OCI employer numbers are similar to a lot of the mid-range schools up there, considering I could've gone there for about... another 100k than I'll be paying in the next three years.

[LawSchoolWannaBe]

Anecdotal, rising 2L @ Wayne State University (in Detroit, MI) says that there are 37 employers attending OCI this fall.

I haven't seen the data from a lot of higher ranked schools, but as a rising 1L, it encourages me that my OCI employer numbers are similar to a lot of the mid-range schools up there, considering I could've gone there for about... another 100k than I'll be paying in the next three years.

What kind of employers?

Will any of those employers actually be hiring?

[skoobily doobily]

Anecdotal, rising 2L @ Wayne State University (in Detroit, MI) says that there are 37 employers attending OCI this fall.

I haven't seen the data from a lot of higher ranked schools, but as a rising 1L, it encourages me that my OCI employer numbers are similar to a lot of the mid-range schools up there, considering I could've gone there for about... another 100k than I'll be paying in the next three years.

Yah, you're definitely better off than Emory students, because they don't have as many OCI firms as you do. For sure.

+ 1 to let/them/eat/cake.

Emory seems to be disproportionaly killed OCI wise compared to its peers (at least BC/BU as I know of now have at least double the amount of firms at OCI).
This probably has to do with the fact that consistantly, Emory has had a 10% or so less placement into big firms than GW/Fordham/BC/BU. Now with the recession, NY employers would look more to NE regionals (Fordham), DC to their schools (GW) and T14s than having to go to Emory. Unlike Fordham/GW/BC/BU, etc. Emory is not the strongest school in the region (UGA) and the market isn't big enough to handle the both (like Boston sort of is).

Also, blindmelon, I like you as a poster but you don't really know what you're talking about here.

[20160810]

Judging a school based only on how many employers come to OCI is a little silly. Yeah, less than 10 is a complete fucking disaster. No getting around that. But some differences aren't as big as you'd think. For instance, at least for most students, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a school with 40 OCI employers and one with 70 if the last 30 are only interviewing kids in the top 5-10%.

I think a better indicator of the quality of a school's OCI would be the number of employers willing to interview kids from the bottom 2/3-3/4 of the class.

[emorystud2010]

.

[98234872348]

Judging a school based only on how many employers come to OCI is a little silly. Yeah, less than 10 is a complete fucking disaster. No getting around that. But some differences aren't as big as you'd think. For instance, at least for most students, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a school with 40 OCI employers and one with 70 if the last 30 are only interviewing kids in the top 5-10%.

I think a better indicator of the quality of a school's OCI would be the number of employers willing to interview kids from the bottom 2/3-3/4 of the class.

so ur tellin me there's a chance i won't have to throw myself off a bridge? AWESOME!!!

Going to a school with a 90% chance of failure isn't a very good bet.

[let/them/eat/cake]

just my two cents: when you're in the shit, data means nothing. statistics mean nothing. this process is frightening and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. that being said, i just finished with the big job fair and i'm now comfortably numb and bout to hit this big city. good luck parsin' the data boys, for this here soldier, it's in God's hands now.

[Blindmelon]

skoobily doobily - you're right, it doesn't make much sense, hah. Oh well.

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotal, rising 2L @ Wayne State University (in Detroit, MI) says that there are 37 employers attending OCI this fall.

I haven't seen the data from a lot of higher ranked schools, but as a rising 1L, it encourages me that my OCI employer numbers are similar to a lot of the mid-range schools up there, considering I could've gone there for about... another 100k than I'll be paying in the next three years.

Yah, you're definitely better off than Emory students, because they don't have as many OCI firms as you do. For sure.

+ 1 to let/them/eat/cake.

Emory seems to be disproportionaly killed OCI wise compared to its peers (at least BC/BU as I know of now have at least double the amount of firms at OCI).
This probably has to do with the fact that consistantly, Emory has had a 10% or so less placement into big firms than GW/Fordham/BC/BU. Now with the recession, NY employers would look more to NE regionals (Fordham), DC to their schools (GW) and T14s than having to go to Emory. Unlike Fordham/GW/BC/BU, etc. Emory is not the strongest school in the region (UGA) and the market isn't big enough to handle the both (like Boston sort of is).

Also, blindmelon, I like you as a poster but you don't really know what you're talking about here.

Sarcasm appreciated, but I never said I was better off than Emory students, and its anecdotal evidence. I don't know anything about the employers at the moment, just the number. There is very little data from some of the "strong TTTs" that TLSers talk about, of which Wayne State is frequently named. When I have more information, I'll post it so that others can get a more accurate picture.

I was expecting the number to be worse when I signed up for Wayne State. Seeing numbers like that is encouraging as a rising 1L that I might have an outside chance of getting a job via OCI if I do well. I had the opportunity to attend some much more highly ranked schools than Wayne State, and decided that the extra $100k or so that it would cost me would not be worth the marginally better job prospects and it seems like that decision has been confirmed with some (not all) of the OCI data this summer.

To other posters: I don't know jack diddly about the firms coming, except that a lot of the top Michigan firms are. Warner, Dykema, Honigman included, and they typically hire between 20-30* associates a year (though not all from Wayne, clearly).

*Edit: Just looked at the data: Last year Michigan Firms Warner, Dykema, and Honigman hired 17, 13, and 20, respectively, so my initial numbers were a little high. Of course, this was also during the worst economic recession... everrr for law.

[skoobily doobily]

Sarcasm appreciated, but I never said I was better off than Emory students, and its anecdotal evidence. I don't know anything about the employers at the moment, just the number. There is very little data from some of the "strong TTTs" that TLSers talk about, of which Wayne State is frequently named. When I have more information, I'll post it so that others can get a more accurate picture.

I was expecting the number to be worse when I signed up for Wayne State. Seeing numbers like that is encouraging as a rising 1L that I might have an outside chance of getting a job via OCI if I do well. I had the opportunity to attend some much more highly ranked schools than Wayne State, and decided that the extra $100k or so that it would cost me would not be worth the marginally better job prospects and it seems like that decision has been confirmed with some (not all) of the OCI data this summer.

To other posters: I don't know jack diddly about the firms coming, except that a lot of the top Michigan firms are. Warner, Dykema, Honigman included, and they typically hire between 20-30* associates a year (though not all from Wayne, clearly).

*Edit: Just looked at the data: Last year Michigan Firms Warner, Dykema, and Honigman hired 17, 13, and 20, respectively, so my initial numbers were a little high. Of course, this was also during the worst economic recession... everrr for law.

Meh, I wasn't trying to pick on you or be offensive or anything, sorry about coming across like that. I'm just a little annoyed at how many posters are jumping on the "speculate from ignorance, articulate as fact" bandwagon right now.