The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Anonymous User]

3l here...it sucks. i was wondering how seriously to take a job posting's work experience. i see a few on simplicity asking for 1-3 years experience. should i apply as a 3L?

[baal hadad]

3l here...it sucks. i was wondering how seriously to take a job posting's work experience. i see a few on simplicity asking for 1-3 years experience. should i apply as a 3L?

Yes

[JoanSloan]

Just sent in my deferment form.
Oy! Unemployment never felt so real.

[sparty99]

OP here.

After 15 cold emails yesterday - I scored an interview with a five lawyer boutique that does the exact type of law I want to practice (and same type as the firm I'm clerking at now).

Three hesitations:

The size - five lawyers seems really really small.

It's not in my target market, but it is in the my second choice market (also where my favorite baseball and hockey teams are)

Jumping way ahead - I'm afraid of accepting an early offer and missing out on a potential offer from the firm I'm clerking at now (really want to work for them).

Thoughts and advice?

If the boutique ends up giving you an offer you can use it as leverage to see if your current firm has an offer available for you. IF you're frank about your present circumstances -- you'd rather stay with your current firm but need to do what's best for you and must consider the offer from the boutique -- then your firm should let you know whether they see a position for you becoming available. Even with that, though, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." I'd advise against passing up on an offer in hopes that your current places gives you one (unless they give you strong assurances that one is waiting).

Of course, you have to get an offer first.

Sound advice.

I have been told that "they want to hire me but right now they need to make sure there will have capacity." I think an offer in hand would def. force them to make a decision rather than "let's sit and watch the market."


Also, I know that a lot of valers in here have fought, and are still fighting to get employment so I don't want this to come off wrong or be offensive. But, is it crazy to decline an offer this late in the game? The thought of relocating and working at a small firm does not overly excite me (although their practice really does). Would it be crazy to decline an offer in hopes of landing other opportunities? Like everyone, the thought of no employment post bar scares the shit out of me.

I'm hesitate about jumping on the first thing I get. Obviously if I take the interview and love them this is all moot.

Again, all this is a big assumption of landing an offer. Posting right now because 1) just got the email and 2) procrastinating studying for finals.

You need to think big picture. Taking the small firm is not an employment agreement for life. Do at least 12 months and apply elsewhere. Or you might enjoy it and get more experience early on and so you decide to stay. It is not set in stone.

[Anonymous User]

What concerns you about working at a smaller firm? Or is is the relocating? Or both in combination?

Combo of both. Moving to a new city where I don't have a lot of friends or family, I was hoping that it would be with a larger firm that way I can meet people and make friends with coworkers (hoping there would be other associates around my age range). That is not the case with this firm.

Also, smaller firms tend to pay less.

I'm not gunning for big law or anything. The firm I'm at right now is 20 lawyers and I think that is a great size.

I don't know how, but they will smell it on you that you may not stay, even if you intend to. I'm speaking from experience after interviewing at a small firm an hour outside of my target market. I fully intended to move there, but they believed that I would eventually move back to my target market. They were probably right. I would suggest finding some convincing tie to the city other than favorite sports teams. People may be more convinced if you said you had family, friends, or SO in the area, or close by.

[Anonymous User]

What concerns you about working at a smaller firm? Or is is the relocating? Or both in combination?

Combo of both. Moving to a new city where I don't have a lot of friends or family, I was hoping that it would be with a larger firm that way I can meet people and make friends with coworkers (hoping there would be other associates around my age range). That is not the case with this firm.

Also, smaller firms tend to pay less.

I'm not gunning for big law or anything. The firm I'm at right now is 20 lawyers and I think that is a great size.

I don't know how, but they will smell it on you that you may not stay, even if you intend to. I'm speaking from experience after interviewing at a small firm an hour outside of my target market. I fully intended to move there, but they believed that I would eventually move back to my target market. They were probably right. I would suggest finding some convincing tie to the city other than favorite sports teams. People may be more convinced if you said you had family, friends, or SO in the area, or close by.

My ties are stronger than just sports teams. My s/o is from the area and I went to undergrad there. It's the second biggest city in my state (I'm currently in the biggest city).

But noted - I was def. going to pull the "my s/o other wants to move closer to family" and "I couldn't get in to the overpriced private school in this city so I moved away for law school fully intending on moving back" cards.

[BVest]

What concerns you about working at a smaller firm? Or is is the relocating? Or both in combination?

Combo of both. Moving to a new city where I don't have a lot of friends or family, I was hoping that it would be with a larger firm that way I can meet people and make friends with coworkers (hoping there would be other associates around my age range). That is not the case with this firm.

Also, smaller firms tend to pay less.

I'm not gunning for big law or anything. The firm I'm at right now is 20 lawyers and I think that is a great size.

I don't know how, but they will smell it on you that you may not stay, even if you intend to. I'm speaking from experience after interviewing at a small firm an hour outside of my target market. I fully intended to move there, but they believed that I would eventually move back to my target market. They were probably right. I would suggest finding some convincing tie to the city other than favorite sports teams. People may be more convinced if you said you had family, friends, or SO in the area, or close by.

My ties are stronger than just sports teams. My s/o is from the area and I went to undergrad there. It's the second biggest city in my state (I'm currently in the biggest city).

But noted - I was def. going to pull the "my s/o other wants to move closer to family" and "I couldn't get in to the overpriced private school in this city so I moved It made more sense financially to attend UH instead of SMU, so I moved away away for law school fully intending on moving back" cards.

I'm assuming about cities just to make a point, but just don't frame anything as "I didn't get in" but rather how the financial package at the school you attended was enough to draw you away from the city for the past three years.

And when you say S/O, are you talking b/gf, fiancé/e, or spouse? If one of the latter two, be sure to specify as those signal deeper, stronger ties

[Stanford4Me]

Things got crazy @ work so I'll just address one small thing --

I started out at a small firm -- 10 attorneys total. Enjoyed the work a lot, loved the people I worked with, and compensation was competitive but I was concerned about career prospects outside of just advancing in the firm.

In March of this year (after 8 months @ small firm) I got a call from a head hunter wanting me to interview for a position with a V20 firm here in Dallas. I turned that interview down because all of my friends in Dallas more or less hate working at large firms and, since my two-summer debacle with a large firm, I've written off BigLaw.

In May I was referred for an in-house position at a very senior level with a small, but very profitable and quickly growing, company. Didn't like the people there very much, opted not to pursue it.

In October I took a position that I couldn't turn up going In-house with a (different) privately held company that made it clear that if I stay I will be their Senior VP/General Counsel once I work here a few years.

I didn't actively seek out any of these positions, they were just all presented to me through the connections I'd made by getting involved with the local bar association.

Two of my co-workers at my previous firm are now at larger firms--one at Holland & Knight and one at a regional mid law firm.

I say all that just to point out that your first job is not, in any way, where you'll end up for the rest of your career. You'll be surprised how differently things can look 12 months down the road.

[numbertwo88]

Has anyone had success with their former school's career services office? I gave up on mine while I was still a student - because my school was and still is ridiculous - but I'm curious as to others.

I've also burnt out on searching. There's only so much networking I can handle - I feel like I just keep running into walls.

[spleenworship]

Mine is better for alums than current students because so many employers want people who already passed. Never hurts to try when you're in the vale IMO.

[jbiresq]

Just sent in my deferment form.
Oy! Unemployment never felt so real.

Why not do PAYE and have a $0 payment?

[deadpanic]

3l here...it sucks. i was wondering how seriously to take a job posting's work experience. i see a few on simplicity asking for 1-3 years experience. should i apply as a 3L?

Yes

Yeah, this may be obvious, but most every firm will ask for experience. They don't want to sit there and say, "would love to have a 3L as a future associate." It would be bidding against itself if the firm did that.

I knew many 3Ls and recent grads that snagged jobs like this (including myself). So, of course apply.

[Anonymous User]

Things got crazy @ work so I'll just address one small thing --

I started out at a small firm -- 10 attorneys total. Enjoyed the work a lot, loved the people I worked with, and compensation was competitive but I was concerned about career prospects outside of just advancing in the firm.

In March of this year (after 8 months @ small firm) I got a call from a head hunter wanting me to interview for a position with a V20 firm here in Dallas. I turned that interview down because all of my friends in Dallas more or less hate working at large firms and, since my two-summer debacle with a large firm, I've written off BigLaw.

In May I was referred for an in-house position at a very senior level with a small, but very profitable and quickly growing, company. Didn't like the people there very much, opted not to pursue it.

In October I took a position that I couldn't turn up going In-house with a (different) privately held company that made it clear that if I stay I will be their Senior VP/General Counsel once I work here a few years.

I didn't actively seek out any of these positions, they were just all presented to me through the connections I'd made by getting involved with the local bar association.

Two of my co-workers at my previous firm are now at larger firms--one at Holland & Knight and one at a regional mid law firm.

I say all that just to point out that your first job is not, in any way, where you'll end up for the rest of your career. You'll be surprised how differently things can look 12 months down the road.

That's great to hear there would be other options.

Again, I hate assuming things, like getting the gig, or that I may not like it actually, whatever. Just a lot to think about right now. I feel though, that given that this firm is small and very niche, and that I have WE in the area, that I actually have a really good shot going in as compared to the million other interviews with bigger firms that I have bombed.

BVest. You seemed to have hit the nail on your hypothetical schools lol .


I would love to hear peoples thoughts on relocating to a new market. With this interview, it's my first interview with a firm outside my target market. I don't really have friends or family in the city so I will be starting over. It would be very tough given that my s/o and I have a lot of friends in the city we are in now.

I'm sure a lot of people have gone through this - would love to hear how you handled it. This aspect is honestly the toughest part to swallow.

[Anonymous User]

Things got crazy @ work so I'll just address one small thing --

I started out at a small firm -- 10 attorneys total. Enjoyed the work a lot, loved the people I worked with, and compensation was competitive but I was concerned about career prospects outside of just advancing in the firm.

In March of this year (after 8 months @ small firm) I got a call from a head hunter wanting me to interview for a position with a V20 firm here in Dallas. I turned that interview down because all of my friends in Dallas more or less hate working at large firms and, since my two-summer debacle with a large firm, I've written off BigLaw.

In May I was referred for an in-house position at a very senior level with a small, but very profitable and quickly growing, company. Didn't like the people there very much, opted not to pursue it.

In October I took a position that I couldn't turn up going In-house with a (different) privately held company that made it clear that if I stay I will be their Senior VP/General Counsel once I work here a few years.

I didn't actively seek out any of these positions, they were just all presented to me through the connections I'd made by getting involved with the local bar association.

Two of my co-workers at my previous firm are now at larger firms--one at Holland & Knight and one at a regional mid law firm.

I say all that just to point out that your first job is not, in any way, where you'll end up for the rest of your career. You'll be surprised how differently things can look 12 months down the road.

this is encouraging to hear.

different anon here, but similar concerns: i'm a 2014 grad who just passed the bar. i'm in the final rounds of interviews for a small/mid-size firm to practice in an area that i have some experience in(and wouldn't mind practicing down the road).

the only problem is the pay is pretty terrible, especially considering the city/region.

i obviously don't want to join a firm looking to leave as soon as possible; and while any job (and any salary) is better than none, i don't know if the job/salary is sustainable for the long term.

i'm fairly certain the correct advice here is take the job if they offer it and then look to lateral down the road?

[minnbills]

i'm fairly certain the correct advice here is take the job if they offer it and then look to lateral down the road?

Two questions:

1) can you pay your bills on that salary?
2) will you be doing good work at this firm?

If they wanted to keep you long-term, they would give you a better salary. Don't feel bad if you take another job quickly.

[Stanford4Me]

Yeah, I think the major caveat to giving yourself a better chance of lateraling is to make sure your potential firm is at least doing good legal work.

[Anonymous User]

i'm fairly certain the correct advice here is take the job if they offer it and then look to lateral down the road?

Two questions:

1) can you pay your bills on that salary?
2) will you be doing good work at this firm?

If they wanted to keep you long-term, they would give you a better salary. Don't feel bad if you take another job quickly.

thanks for replying.

1) i can survive on that salary, but not easily, considering living/renting expenses in the area are pretty pricey + got loans to pay off.
2) from what i was told, i'd be doing legitimate work in the area of law i've had a summer of experience in. i honestly want to end up back in biglaw or a strong mid-size firm (i actually summered at a biglaw firm before being no offered for economic reasons) so i'm always concerned about whether the type of work i'm getting would make me marketable. by all indications so far, yes, but it's something i will really delve into for my final interview.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I think the major caveat to giving yourself a better chance of lateraling is to make sure your potential firm is at least doing good legal work.

thanks. i was thinking the same thing.

[crumpetsandtea]

Officially jerbed up. Oh my god it is such a fucking relief. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I panic requested a week to think about it but I'm definitely going to take it.

Guys. Best Christmas present ever.

[minnbills]

Officially jerbed up. Oh my god it is such a fucking relief. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I panic requested a week to think about it but I'm definitely going to take it.

Guys. Best Christmas present ever.

Congrats!!!! That's awesome.

[BVest]

Officially jerbed up. Oh my god it is such a fucking relief. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I panic requested a week to think about it but I'm definitely going to take it.

Guys. Best Christmas present ever.

Yay Crumpets!

[UnamSanctam]

Officially jerbed up. Oh my god it is such a fucking relief. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I panic requested a week to think about it but I'm definitely going to take it.

Guys. Best Christmas present ever.

Where at?!

[Jsa725]

.

[Pleasye]

Congratulations Crumps!! <3

[Anonymous User]

What are you guys doing for your job search? I feel like I'm doing everything but I want to hear other people's approach as obviously what I'm doing isn't working. Little background info: Very bad grades from a top 10 and finished in 2013. Did a fellowship afterwards and looking for real work now.