Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

When is that DPW town hall?

[Anonymous User]

I am incredibly happy in my non-major-market city with a super low COA at my very not V10 firm that matched the raises quickly. I leave the office by 6 to swim in a pool full of cash at my 3500 sq ft home that cost me less than a studio in Astoria.

[Anonymous User]

This place is gonna boil over tmrw when the DPW town hall goes by without a word re: comp

[Anonymous User]

This place is gonna boil over tmrw when the DPW town hall goes by without a word re: comp

I wonder if they would be smart enough to know that it would be a really bad idea to shatter morale doing that or if they really could care less

[bigboybob]

You think DPW will cater Lobster tomorrow for this town hall?

[Anonymous User]

You think DPW will cater Lobster tomorrow for this town hall?

That would be an epic troll if they did something like that.

[Anonymous User]

The amount of people who are saying they would switch firms or choose another firm based on this comp decision must be juniors/law students. Yes, at the OCI stage I would've chosen the firm that paid the most.

As a midlevel, many of us have already been taken care of via either retention bonuses or above market YE bonus. I'm not switching out my firm where I'm super comfortable, have a good relationship with partners, manageable workflow etc. for a an extra $20k.

By the time I hit 4th year, more than half my summer class had lateraled/gone in-house. You really only start becoming value-add around 3rd year and in this environment, there's a 50/50 chance firms will lose you by then anyway. I think most firms are understanding that it's better to compete in for mid-level talent via lateral signing bonuses and reward their best performers with retention+above market YE bonuses. Raising the base is primarily a concern for the youngest and most expendable associates.

Nonetheless, every firm will match and this hand-wringing is stupid.

[Anonymous User]

The amount of people who are saying they would switch firms or choose another firm based on this comp decision must be juniors/law students. Yes, at the OCI stage I would've chosen the firm that paid the most.

As a midlevel, many of us have already been taken care of via either retention bonuses or above market YE bonus. I'm not switching out my firm where I'm super comfortable, have a good relationship with partners, manageable workflow etc. for a an extra $20k.

By the time I hit 4th year, more than half my summer class had lateraled/gone in-house. You really only start becoming value-add around 3rd year and in this environment, there's a 50/50 chance firms will lose you by then anyway. I think most firms are understanding that it's better to compete in for mid-level talent via lateral signing bonuses and reward their best performers with retention+above market YE bonuses. Raising the base is primarily a concern for the youngest and most expendable associates.

Nonetheless, every firm will match and this hand-wringing is stupid.

"People won't leave for more money at another firm, especially the people that were paid more money by their firms." Yeah, exactly.

[thecaliforniakid]

What if DPW is waiting until Milbank’s true up to re-raise, forcing Milbank et al. to perform another true-up payment to match DPW?

[Anonymous User]

They'll match, but I agree it wouldn't affect retention all that much if they didn't. Few people would lateral solely for the sake of a 10-15k raise. It would certainly affect recruiting though.

Disagree with this part strongly. In this market, they would. I certainly would. It's extremely easy to get hired right now and you get a lateral bonus on top of it. What difference does it make if I make sausage for Wilmer or Ropes? Maybe that'll be different in 12 months time but that's an issue for a year from now.

Yeah, people are wild if they don't think a lot of people will start making moves. If not even for the 10k, then for the security of knowing you're at a "market" or "above-market" firm in case these salary raises continue to happen.

It's absolute stupidity. Not specifically retention/lateral effect, but I start at a "prestigous" NY firm next year (STB/PW) and I would've accepted my Milbank offer over them in a heartbeat if they were confirmed below market during OCI.

Lolz at the thought of taking Milbank over any of the v10... Unless you want to cash out after a couple years, that’s a big time drop off in credentials. I’m sure many a law student would eagerly swap a spot at milbank making 10k more for more prestige (not that the situation would ever occur).

It's as if you believe the v10 materialized out of thin air. I can't tell if you are really this foolish or are just trolling.

If real it’s the rantings of either a law student or junior who hasn’t seen how the sausage is made yet.

It's a 100% real take. Junior at a white-shoe v10 and firmly stand by the idea that the "prestige" factor exists for long-term career prospects. Yeah if I want I can lateral down, switch to a lower v-rated firm in tech, or whatever else - but the point is at the top firms you objectively sit with more options. On the other hand, if you flounder out of Cadwalader where are you going... And to the v25 partner, that's a prime example, hang on at the top until lateraling down to partnership. 10-15k isn't worth the lack of mobility, anyone denying that probably isn't shooting for partnership

[Anonymous User]

Disagree with this part strongly. In this market, they would. I certainly would. It's extremely easy to get hired right now and you get a lateral bonus on top of it. What difference does it make if I make sausage for Wilmer or Ropes? Maybe that'll be different in 12 months time but that's an issue for a year from now.

Yeah, people are wild if they don't think a lot of people will start making moves. If not even for the 10k, then for the security of knowing you're at a "market" or "above-market" firm in case these salary raises continue to happen.

It's absolute stupidity. Not specifically retention/lateral effect, but I start at a "prestigous" NY firm next year (STB/PW) and I would've accepted my Milbank offer over them in a heartbeat if they were confirmed below market during OCI.

Lolz at the thought of taking Milbank over any of the v10... Unless you want to cash out after a couple years, that’s a big time drop off in credentials. I’m sure many a law student would eagerly swap a spot at milbank making 10k more for more prestige (not that the situation would ever occur).

It's as if you believe the v10 materialized out of thin air. I can't tell if you are really this foolish or are just trolling.

If real it’s the rantings of either a law student or junior who hasn’t seen how the sausage is made yet.

It's a 100% real take. Junior at a white-shoe v10 and firmly stand by the idea that the "prestige" factor exists for long-term career prospects. Yeah if I want I can lateral down, switch to a lower v-rated firm in tech, or whatever else - but the point is at the top firms you objectively sit with more options. On the other hand, if you flounder out of Cadwalader where are you going... And to the v25 partner, that's a prime example, hang on at the top until lateraling down to partnership. 10-15k isn't worth the lack of mobility, anyone denying that probably isn't shooting for partnership

Anyone suggesting that associates would still pick a V10 over a lower ranked firm that pays more (thus implying that no one in the V10 will move) is ignoring market realities. Yes, everyone is currently waiting for DPW to speak, but in the (extremely unlikely) event that DPW continues to remain silent, eventually at least some of the other firms in the V10 would start announcing Milbank matches. It is inevitable. These firms have all affirmed over and over to their associates that they will always pay top-of-market. And once even just one of, e.g., STB, Debevoise or Weil match, we would see the dominoes begin to fall. Because while associates and law students may not choose DLA Piper over a DPW, S&C, or PW for an extra 10-15k per year, they certainly can and will choose STB, Debevoise or Weil over them if it means higher compensation. All it takes is one firm in your competitive circle to move and then the firm is left with very little choice but to do the same. This is the reason base pay and bonuses always end up equal throughout the market, because firms have overlapping circles of competitors (both prestige-wise and regionally) and must respond to those who they see as legitimate competition for their talent.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please confirm what time the DPW town hall meeting is? I already asked this just now but I don’t see my comment anywhere so excuse me if it shows this twice

[Anonymous User]

Disagree with this part strongly. In this market, they would. I certainly would. It's extremely easy to get hired right now and you get a lateral bonus on top of it. What difference does it make if I make sausage for Wilmer or Ropes? Maybe that'll be different in 12 months time but that's an issue for a year from now.

Yeah, people are wild if they don't think a lot of people will start making moves. If not even for the 10k, then for the security of knowing you're at a "market" or "above-market" firm in case these salary raises continue to happen.

It's absolute stupidity. Not specifically retention/lateral effect, but I start at a "prestigous" NY firm next year (STB/PW) and I would've accepted my Milbank offer over them in a heartbeat if they were confirmed below market during OCI.

Lolz at the thought of taking Milbank over any of the v10... Unless you want to cash out after a couple years, that’s a big time drop off in credentials. I’m sure many a law student would eagerly swap a spot at milbank making 10k more for more prestige (not that the situation would ever occur).

It's as if you believe the v10 materialized out of thin air. I can't tell if you are really this foolish or are just trolling.

If real it’s the rantings of either a law student or junior who hasn’t seen how the sausage is made yet.

It's a 100% real take. Junior at a white-shoe v10 and firmly stand by the idea that the "prestige" factor exists for long-term career prospects. Yeah if I want I can lateral down, switch to a lower v-rated firm in tech, or whatever else - but the point is at the top firms you objectively sit with more options. On the other hand, if you flounder out of Cadwalader where are you going... And to the v25 partner, that's a prime example, hang on at the top until lateraling down to partnership. 10-15k isn't worth the lack of mobility, anyone denying that probably isn't shooting for partnership

If you flounder out you can do a lot of things. If you have good grades and recs you can clerk. You can go in house to a bank. You can lateral. And I know plenty of people at cwt, cahill, and other firms that have done just that. There’s a misconception that it’s the institution that has an outsized effect upon career, when really, after a certain bar is passed the qualities of the individual matter far more. There can be a selection bias about who goes to what firm, but a brilliant, hard working individual is likely to do well for themselves at cravath or at cahill. It’s just that these individuals often, but not always, pick the first over the second. That is why compensation is so important.

[Anonymous User]

Would be great for associates to walk into DPW's town hall tomorrow knowing Uncle Davis still is still the top dog in town...

[Anonymous User]

I'm not switching out my firm where I'm super comfortable, have a good relationship with partners, manageable workflow etc. for a an extra $20k.

Didn't you miss the entire point with this sentence here though? I agree that many when they reach mid/senior level would not lateral over for an extra $20k. However, if the v10 (or whatever grouping of "elite" firms you want to use) do not match market, they would lose out on a significant portion of top talent coming out of law school. Then, those midlevels would be sitting at Milbank, and would have the same calculus, i.e. "I'm not lateraling for $50k to STB when I've made more than that number in surplus income at Milbank over the last five years and will continue to going forward." Sure, K&E earth shattering lateral bonuses would still draw a few, but overall the v10 would lose a ton of top law school grads which is a driving force behind their entrenchment as top NY firms.

Unless I'm completely missing something?

[Anonymous User]

I think there's some wiggle room here. I turned down Desmarais (which pays above market) for a V20 with a good IP group. But I think that's in part because Desmarais is an outlier (and hadn't yet shaken off the troll smell).

What I'm trying to say is if like 5 firms in the V50 match and the rest (including V10) don't, I don't think it will make a big difference for law students. If, on the other hand, the question was get preftige at a V10 or more money literally anywhere else, I think you'd see people dropping their V10 offers more.

[Anonymous User]

I hope DPW matches tomorrow so all this well-AKSCHUALLY-tier bickering about the mysterious benefits of paying your employees market rate salaries for their labor can finally cease.

[Anonymous User]

Is hope lost on today being the day?

[Anonymous User]

I hope DPW matches tomorrow so all this well-AKSCHUALLY-tier bickering about the mysterious benefits of paying your employees market rate salaries for their labor can finally cease.

Alright everyone, pack it up, we finally got to the "complaining about people complaining" post, signaling the end of another productive day. See y'all tomorrow.

[Anonymous User]

If I were a DPW/Milbank partner, I would print out this entire thread after the dust settles on this round of raises and attach it as an exhibit to the next partner meeting agenda. Goal would be to hire an outside analyst to determine the lowest $$$ they can get away with paying us. There's just so much material here on the psyche of your average associate that can be leveraged...

[ExpOriental]

Disagree with this part strongly. In this market, they would. I certainly would. It's extremely easy to get hired right now and you get a lateral bonus on top of it. What difference does it make if I make sausage for Wilmer or Ropes? Maybe that'll be different in 12 months time but that's an issue for a year from now.

Yeah, people are wild if they don't think a lot of people will start making moves. If not even for the 10k, then for the security of knowing you're at a "market" or "above-market" firm in case these salary raises continue to happen.

It's absolute stupidity. Not specifically retention/lateral effect, but I start at a "prestigous" NY firm next year (STB/PW) and I would've accepted my Milbank offer over them in a heartbeat if they were confirmed below market during OCI.

Lolz at the thought of taking Milbank over any of the v10... Unless you want to cash out after a couple years, that’s a big time drop off in credentials. I’m sure many a law student would eagerly swap a spot at milbank making 10k more for more prestige (not that the situation would ever occur).

It's as if you believe the v10 materialized out of thin air. I can't tell if you are really this foolish or are just trolling.

If real it’s the rantings of either a law student or junior who hasn’t seen how the sausage is made yet.

It's a 100% real take. Junior at a white-shoe v10 and firmly stand by the idea that the "prestige" factor exists for long-term career prospects. Yeah if I want I can lateral down, switch to a lower v-rated firm in tech, or whatever else - but the point is at the top firms you objectively sit with more options. On the other hand, if you flounder out of Cadwalader where are you going... And to the v25 partner, that's a prime example, hang on at the top until lateraling down to partnership. 10-15k isn't worth the lack of mobility, anyone denying that probably isn't shooting for partnership

Oh man we can't let this cringey shit go by unnoticed. You got absolutely nailed by the "junior who hasn’t seen how the sausage is made yet" tag so I don't know why you even bothered responding. You are like the living incarnation of "logo facing out."

If that POS Laterally was still up and running I could blow your mind by showing you the scores of associates that lateral "up" to firms like S&C from places like Cadwalader and Shearman (and vice versa!). You should be able to find plenty of anecdotes just by looking around, though. It is routine. Every v10 firm is pretty much generic biglaw at the end of the day except for Wachtell, and you are a complete sucker if you think Vault rank makes up for lesser comp.

[Anonymous User]

I am incredibly happy in my non-major-market city with a super low COA at my very not V10 firm that matched the raises quickly. I leave the office by 6 to swim in a pool full of cash at my 3500 sq ft home that cost me less than a studio in Astoria.

what firm and where lol

[cornerstone]

If I were a DPW/Milbank partner, I would print out this entire thread after the dust settles on this round of raises and attach it as an exhibit to the next partner meeting agenda. Goal would be to hire an outside analyst to determine the lowest $$$ they can get away with paying us. There's just so much material here on the psyche of your average associate that can be leveraged...

Because TLS posters are totally representative of your average associate...

[clone22]

If I were a DPW/Milbank partner, I would print out this entire thread after the dust settles on this round of raises and attach it as an exhibit to the next partner meeting agenda. Goal would be to hire an outside analyst to determine the lowest $$$ they can get away with paying us. There's just so much material here on the psyche of your average associate that can be leveraged...

That may be true. As a data point for any such record, I will add that the only reason I did not move in-house in 2020 was because 100% WFH setup gave me a bunch more free time (without a drop in my billables) and the ongoing salary increases and bonuses made the $300-$350K all-in in-house comp substantially sub-par.

[Anonymous User]

I think there's some wiggle room here. I turned down Desmarais (which pays above market) for a V20 with a good IP group. But I think that's in part because Desmarais is an outlier (and hadn't yet shaken off the troll smell).

What I'm trying to say is if like 5 firms in the V50 match and the rest (including V10) don't, I don't think it will make a big difference for law students. If, on the other hand, the question was get preftige at a V10 or more money literally anywhere else, I think you'd see people dropping their V10 offers more.

Desmarais is a lit boutique with an inconsistent bonus structure if I'm not mistaken, which makes this analogy a major stretch. There are a ton of reasons to choose a biglaw firm over Desmarais that just do not apply when comparing biglaw firm to biglaw firm.

Obviously agreed though that if only 5 firms in the v50 matched that would have less of a material impact on v10 recruiting, because there would be fewer Milbank scale firms for students to defect to. That's just common sense, the Milbank scale wouldn't even be market in that scenario.