Thinking about dropping out Forum

[ChattelCat]

sounds like you don't want to be a lawyer, you just want to be rich.

i'd drop out.

TITCR. If you seriously transferred from Indiana to CLS, and you're letting bad OCI results get to you like this, and then sharing that sentiment with the entire TLS community, you've clearly lost sight of why you went to law school in the first place. (and I'm not saying that to be mean, but more in a tough-love sense - try to remember why you wanted to do this in the first place - that's what's been helping me through a less than stellar OCI experience)

[rayiner]

rayiner, tell us when this recession is gonna end, enlightened one

Current economic suggest that it'll end before this dude graduates law school. Of course nobody knows with absolute certainty, but OP isn't exactly in a position to throw his hands up in the air and say "I don't know!". He has to make a decision, and that decision will necessarily be based on some well-reasoned estimation of what the economy will look like in 2011. Note that, "the economy will still suck so I'll just drop out" is also an estimation, and according to the current projections probably the wrong one.

Regardless, this situation is on paper an easy one. There are very few scenarios under which the OP won't come out ahead by obtaining that law degree. Basically, OP has to strike out of even a $60-$70k small firm job after resume-bombing in 2011. With a CLS degree. That is certainly possible, but I wouldn't put money on that outcome. Things would be different if OP had decent alternative prospects, but he doesn't.

[OperaSoprano]

rayiner, tell us when this recession is gonna end, enlightened one

and operasoprano, no one gives a crap now whether people at CLS are nice or not. get your head out of your ass

usairs comes off as a douche sometimes but im pretty sure he means well. i remember him from before

i didn't read weed man's posts but i assume they suck

tcr is "no one knows"

this post was really unnecessary

Quality of life matters. Not as much as career prospects matter, obviously, but intangibles like this contribute to OPs happiness at his new school. If he was truly happy there, he wouldn't be making this post. That's my read on the situation, anyway. Many people apparently struck out at OCI this year, and not all of them are contemplating leaving the profession. Having friends around can make sucky situations a lot more bearable.

[OperaSoprano]

rayiner, tell us when this recession is gonna end, enlightened one

Current economic suggest that it'll end before this dude graduates law school. Of course nobody knows with absolute certainty, but OP isn't exactly in a position to throw his hands up in the air and say "I don't know!". He has to make a decision, and that decision will necessarily be based on some well-reasoned estimation of what the economy will look like in 2011. Note that, "the economy will still suck so I'll just drop out" is also an estimation, and according to the current projections probably the wrong one.

Regardless, this situation is on paper an easy one. There are very few scenarios under which the OP won't come out ahead by obtaining that law degree. Basically, OP has to strike out of even a $60-$70k small firm job after resume-bombing in 2011. With a CLS degree. That is certainly possible, but I wouldn't put money on that outcome. Things would be different if OP had decent alternative prospects, but he doesn't.

Ray, I award this post a 180. I hope the OP sees this. I also wish I had the slightest bit of aptitude for engineering.

[tetrahydrocannabinol]

rayiner, tell us when this recession is gonna end, enlightened one

Current economic suggest that it'll end before this dude graduates law school. Of course nobody knows with absolute certainty, but OP isn't exactly in a position to throw his hands up in the air and say "I don't know!". He has to make a decision, and that decision will necessarily be based on some well-reasoned estimation of what the economy will look like in 2011. Note that, "the economy will still suck so I'll just drop out" is also an estimation, and according to the current projections probably the wrong one.

Regardless, this situation is on paper an easy one. There are very few scenarios under which the OP won't come out ahead by obtaining that law degree. Basically, OP has to strike out of even a $60-$70k small firm job after resume-bombing in 2011. With a CLS degree. That is certainly possible, but I wouldn't put money on that outcome. Things would be different if OP had decent alternative prospects, but he doesn't.

LOL.

The funny thing is OP very likely would make a $100K /year more, and not be in such a shitty situation, if he were in the class of 2010, and almost certainly make $100K /year more if he was in the class of 2009. But he wasn't, so now he get's 30 years of debt, which he will struggle to pay off while living worse then many people who don't go to college at all (I have a good number of friends that didn't go to college, mid 20s, and making around $60K a year, debt-free).

Hell, his options would probably be better if he had got a job at McDonald's right out of college and stayed there for 7 years because he would probably be taking home more money then he will as a lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

It's interesting that the ones who are most positive about the OP's situation seem to be first years who didn't go through this year's OCI. A lot of really qualified people won't get jobs this year. Platitudes about "being happy at your school" and just waiting for the economy to sort itself out show a denial of reality and are useless to the OP. What the economy is like in 2011 is irrelevant. We 2Ls are getting our jobs now, in this economy.

OP: Staying in school is a gamble. You may end up with a law degree and no job, and I doubt that a firm (or anyone) will hire you in 2011 if you don't have a law-related job in 2010. Not getting an offer means that your road just got a lot harder. But there are other options; people have already pointed out secondary markets, public interest, and government jobs. Personally, I'm pretty stubborn and have decided that I put too much effort into 1L to leave law school without exhausting all options. But I could also end up with a useless degree and a mountain of debt. Both possibilities suck; you've just got to pick the one you can more easily live with.

Mods: anon for reasons I'm happy to explain in a pm.

[Anonymous User]

rayiner, tell us when this recession is gonna end, enlightened one

Current economic suggest that it'll end before this dude graduates law school. Of course nobody knows with absolute certainty, but OP isn't exactly in a position to throw his hands up in the air and say "I don't know!". He has to make a decision, and that decision will necessarily be based on some well-reasoned estimation of what the economy will look like in 2011. Note that, "the economy will still suck so I'll just drop out" is also an estimation, and according to the current projections probably the wrong one.

Regardless, this situation is on paper an easy one. There are very few scenarios under which the OP won't come out ahead by obtaining that law degree. Basically, OP has to strike out of even a $60-$70k small firm job after resume-bombing in 2011. With a CLS degree. That is certainly possible, but I wouldn't put money on that outcome. Things would be different if OP had decent alternative prospects, but he doesn't.

LOL.

The funny thing is OP very likely would make a $100K /year more, and not be in such a shitty situation, if he were in the class of 2010, and almost certainly make $100K /year more if he was in the class of 2009. But he wasn't, so now he get's 30 years of debt, which he will struggle to pay off while living worse then many people who don't go to college at all (I have a good number of friends that didn't go to college, mid 20s, and making around $60K a year, debt-free).

Hell, his options would probably be better if he had got a job at McDonald's right out of college and stayed there for 7 years because he would probably be taking home more money then he will as a lawyer.

A lot of us have friends doing pretty well without going to college, but they aren't the rule.

[OperaSoprano]

It's interesting that the ones who are most positive about the OP's situation seem to be first years who didn't go through this year's OCI. A lot of really qualified people won't get jobs this year. Platitudes about "being happy at your school" and just waiting for the economy to sort itself out show a denial of reality and are useless to the OP. What the economy is like in 2011 is irrelevant. We 2Ls are getting our jobs now, in this economy.

OP: Staying in school is a gamble. You may end up with a law degree and no job, and I doubt that a firm (or anyone) will hire you in 2011 if you don't have a law-related job in 2010. Not getting an offer means that your road just got a lot harder. But there are other options; people have already pointed out secondary markets, public interest, and government jobs. Personally, I'm pretty stubborn and have decided that I put too much effort into 1L to leave law school without exhausting all options. But I could also end up with a useless degree and a mountain of debt. Both possibilities suck; you've just got to pick the one you can more easily live with.

Mods: anon for reasons I'm happy to explain in a pm.

OP is only cooked if biglaw was his end all and be all. Outside the T14, it is not at all unusual for people to find their first jobs in the nine months post graduation. Is that a scary proposition? Yeah. It's of limited relevance to this OP, perhaps, but I had a conversation with the head of career services at another school to which I was admitted. She explained that many of these other firms and organizaions could not afford to hire years ahead, and indeed did not take on new graduates until they were ready and able to start working.

I'm a 1L, so I lack the direct experience, but I've done as much research as is humanly possible.

Ordinarily this kind of fate would not befall a Columbia student, but, as you've pointed out, we are not living in ordinary times. The OP might literally have to wait until the economy looks a bit better (hopefully by 2011 when he graduates) to find any job at all, and if so, it won't be the kind of firm work he is expecting.

Is that pessimistic enough for you?

I still don't think this constitutes a valid reason to drop out, unless he truly does not want to be a lawyer.

[transferguy]

What the economy is like in 2011 is irrelevant. We 2Ls are getting our jobs now, in this economy.

I have to agree with this. The only relevant economy for 2011 is NOW. Even if the economy picks up to previous levels (which is highly unlikely), it's not like firms are going to go digging through the broken remnants of the class of 2011 when they have the fortuitous classes of 2012 (possibly), 2013, and so forth, to pick from instead.

Class of 2011 just got ****ed with undoubtedly the worst timing ever and it's basically just going to be a "lost class."

[M51]

I was in class. Thanks for all the replies. First, the people that think that the bottom 10% of CLS will make 60k at some gov. gig are crazy. Legal Aid, I believe, starts around 40k a year. Second, as much as I appreciate the loan discussion, I paid my way through undergrad and am paying a large chunk of law school by playing poker. I won't have a ton of loans either way. And yes, I can make more than 40k a year playing poker, but I don't want to be 50 and playing poker for a living. My very rough alternative to law school is to drop out, play poker for a year or two, then invest in some real estate. Before telling me this is a dumb idea, I admittedly know very little about real estate and would need to do a bunch of research.

Some real advice:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.

2. There's still LRAP. You don't get LRAP if you drop out. If you really want to do legal work, LRAP + loans is probably a better solution than cutting your losses now, even from a financial standpoint. If that CLS degree really never gets you to big law, CLS pays for your entire tuition. You think you won't even be able to get a 40k public interest job in the next 2 years? Edit: by this I mean, you can still start taking out loans to qualify for LRAP. No need to pay the entire tuition with your poker $ (which btw, is fairly impressive, and I am envious).

3. You are at COLUMBIA. COLUMBIA. COLUMBIA. Do you know how hard you worked to get here? Why'd you do it? Just for better job prospects? No consideration for the great professors, the great classmates, the great alumni network? You're done with 1L year. You finally get to pick which law school classes you take. Seminars. Journals. Clinics. None of that interests you?

Wake up. It's not sunshine and roses out there, but it's not Armageddon either. Dropping out is rash and stupid.

[OperaSoprano]

I was in class. Thanks for all the replies. First, the people that think that the bottom 10% of CLS will make 60k at some gov. gig are crazy. Legal Aid, I believe, starts around 40k a year. Second, as much as I appreciate the loan discussion, I paid my way through undergrad and am paying a large chunk of law school by playing poker. I won't have a ton of loans either way. And yes, I can make more than 40k a year playing poker, but I don't want to be 50 and playing poker for a living. My very rough alternative to law school is to drop out, play poker for a year or two, then invest in some real estate. Before telling me this is a dumb idea, I admittedly know very little about real estate and would need to do a bunch of research.

Some real advice:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.

2. There's still LRAP. You don't get LRAP if you drop out. If you really want to do legal work, LRAP + loans is probably a better solution than cutting your losses now, even from a financial standpoint. If that CLS degree really never gets you to big law, CLS pays for your entire tuition. You think you won't even be able to get a 40k public interest job in the next 2 years?

3. You are at COLUMBIA. COLUMBIA. COLUMBIA. Do you know how hard you worked to get here? Why'd you do it? Just for better job prospects? No consideration for the great professors, the great classmates, the great alumni network? You're done with 1L year. You finally get to pick which law school classes you take. Seminars. Journals. Clinics. None of that interests you?

Wake up. It's not sunshine and roses out there, but it's not Armageddon either. Dropping out is rash and stupid.

Proper school trolling is always a joy to see. I never got the vibe from OP that he was actually happy to be at CLS, which quite frankly puzzled the shit out of me. In addition, most law students wish their schools had the resources to pay their entire tuitions back via LRAP. The first time I heard about Columbia's generosity, it blew my mind. I actually thought the girl telling me about it was too drunk to know WTF she was saying. Most people get small LRAP grants from their schools, which are all the schools can afford to give.

[utexas2010]

Get the Columbia JD, in the mean time take as many security/finance related classes as possible and go work on Wall Street...or be the next David Stern!

[M_Cool]

What would you do if you dropped out? Unless you have a science/math background I don't see how dropping out will help any with your career prospects. At least w/ a Columbia degree you WILL find some type of work, even if it is 60-70k insurance defense work.

[transferguy]

I never got the vibe from OP that he was actually happy to be at CLS, which quite frankly puzzled the shit out of me.

I still don't get why you're harping on this. I'm also a CLS transfer and "being happy" doesn't really mean shit. And it certainly doesn't make job offers appear out of thin air. I know you're generally obsessed with your love for Fordham and the people, etc, but that really should have no bearing on this decision. As a 2L, I go to class 3 days a week at CLS for a trivial amount of hours. Happiness is not that important of a factor at this stage in the game.

You have to understand that a lot of the "happiness" about being at CLS was a product of the previous expectation that you would be able to land a biglaw job without any trouble. This is no longer the case.

Am I happy to be at CLS? Sure. (at least as much as I can be after taking 2 days of classes so far) Do I think it should have any relevance to this decision? Not at all.

(for purposes of disclosure, I fared much better as a CLS transfer at OCI than OP, but that is not to say that I don't understand where he's coming from as I know of several other CLS students, transfer and non-transfer, in the same or worse position)

[OperaSoprano]

I never got the vibe from OP that he was actually happy to be at CLS, which quite frankly puzzled the shit out of me.

I still don't get why you're harping on this. I'm also a CLS transfer and "being happy" doesn't really mean shit. And it certainly doesn't make job offers appear out of thin air. I know you're generally obsessed with your love for Fordham and the people, etc, but that really should have no bearing on this decision. As a 2L, I go to class 3 days a week at CLS for a trivial amount of hours. Happiness is not that important of a factor at this stage in the game.

You have to understand that a lot of the "happiness" about being at CLS was a product of the previous expectation that you would be able to land a biglaw job without any trouble. This is no longer the case.

Am I happy to be at CLS? Sure. (at least as much as I can be after taking 2 days of classes so far) Do I think it should have any relevance to this decision? Not at all.

(for purposes of disclosure, I fared much better as a CLS transfer at OCI than OP, but that is not to say that I don't understand where he's coming from as I know of several other CLS students, transfer and non-transfer, in the same or worse position)

I think we come at this from vastly differing perspectives. You see legal education as a means to an end, and I see it as a valuable end in itself. Yes, I want a job three years from now. I'm not in law school so I can hang out with my friends, but I do absolutely value the experiences I hope to have over the next three years, and the ones I've had already. Did you really only want to transfer to CLS so you could snag a market paying job? If so, I hope you get your offers, but I think you're missing out.

It's not your desire for a biglaw job that I'm questioning. I'm just surprised that you don't seem to care about making the most of your time at Columbia. Your classmate M51 summarized your opportunities quite nicely for you. Obviously, getting a job is priority number one, but it's never been the only thing that matters, at least in my opinion.

[underdawg]

$100 says he didn't transfer to columbia for the ugly ass building. it's kinda all about jobz at this point

[---why---]

I never got the vibe from OP that he was actually happy to be at CLS, which quite frankly puzzled the shit out of me.

I still don't get why you're harping on this. I'm also a CLS transfer and "being happy" doesn't really mean shit. And it certainly doesn't make job offers appear out of thin air. I know you're generally obsessed with your love for Fordham and the people, etc, but that really should have no bearing on this decision. As a 2L, I go to class 3 days a week at CLS for a trivial amount of hours. Happiness is not that important of a factor at this stage in the game.

You have to understand that a lot of the "happiness" about being at CLS was a product of the previous expectation that you would be able to land a biglaw job without any trouble. This is no longer the case.

Am I happy to be at CLS? Sure. (at least as much as I can be after taking 2 days of classes so far) Do I think it should have any relevance to this decision? Not at all.

(for purposes of disclosure, I fared much better as a CLS transfer at OCI than OP, but that is not to say that I don't understand where he's coming from as I know of several other CLS students, transfer and non-transfer, in the same or worse position)

I think we come at this from vastly differing perspectives. You see legal education as a means to an end, and I see it as a valuable end in itself. Yes, I want a job three years from now. I'm not in law school so I can hang out with my friends, but I do absolutely value the experiences I hope to have over the next three years, and the ones I've had already. Did you really only want to transfer to CLS so you could snag a market paying job? If so, I hope you get your offers, but I think you're missing out.

It's not your desire for a biglaw job that I'm questioning. I'm just surprised that you don't seem to care about making the most of your time at Columbia. Your classmate M51 summarized your opportunities quite nicely for you. Obviously, getting a job is priority number one, but it's never been the only thing that matters, at least in my opinion.

Dude, I love your spirit. I really do. In fact, I even loved law school and learning my first month or two. The cases were awesome and the professors were smart, etc. etc. However, to think that you know EXACTLY what you want to do with your life (being a public interest lawyer) or anything else at such a young age is a gamble itself. You will have a family one day with kids you want to send to a nice college, a wife who wants things, etc. Do some people "love" being a lawyer so much to make 60k a year forever? Yes. Is anything wrong with that? No. Are many of those people happy? yes. But don't fool yourself - you will be giving up many things in your life. Is it silly to question that? Lets be honest we aren't "average" people. If you got into a top law school by either scoring a 170+ on your LSAT or doing really well your first year and transfering, you are smart enough to do well in another industry.

I'll say it again - some CLS will be out of jobs this year - why not me? Also, those 100% job rates are not true. As a professor said yesterday, "the school is bothering me to create year long jobs all the time"

[NewHere]

I haven't read every single response in this long thread, but it looks like M51 has it:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.

Do fall OCI, and send applications to firms in all markets you're interested in.

Edited to add: also look at the "Job Postings" tab in symplicity. Lots of jobs posted there in the last few days.

[rayiner]

It's interesting that the ones who are most positive about the OP's situation seem to be first years who didn't go through this year's OCI. A lot of really qualified people won't get jobs this year. Platitudes about "being happy at your school" and just waiting for the economy to sort itself out show a denial of reality and are useless to the OP. What the economy is like in 2011 is irrelevant. We 2Ls are getting our jobs now, in this economy.

Yes, because all the available employment info is only given out at 2L OCI to students who are barred from posting that info on ATL, naldirectory, TLS, etc. Further, non-2Ls are barred from talking with lawyers, looking at job openings, etc.

What the 2Ls really have is a sense of panic and despair from being the sheep in the slaughter pen. That is making them miss some very basic facts like: $60k/year small-law firms aren't on the biglaw recruiting schedule. Most people at schools outside the T14 never got 2L SAs through OCI. They got their small-firm jobs at graduation/after taking the bar. This will continue to be the case when OP graduates.

Also, this stuff about making "$60k forever" is amusing. Yeah, boo-hoo, your timing was bad and you're in the lost class and your life sucks. That doesn't mean you get to abandon all rationality and the pretense of trying to make a reasoned decision. Lawyers get raises like everyone else. They have upwards career mobility. Some of the shit in this thread is truly ridiculous. OP would've made more money not going to college and working at McDonalds? Really? Do you realize how much an *average* person makes, much less someone working in food service?

I'm a money-grubbing bastard, but the sense of entitlement is shocking even to me. All you need to get into a top law school is a somewhat decent GPA (and not even that) and a good performance on a 4-hour exam. That doesn't make you a f--king badass. If you want to take your chances in a non-legal career, be my guest. I'm sure you'll rise rapidly through the ranks at your $40k/year job and be making baller money before the rest of us graduate law school.

[---why---]

I haven't read every single response in this long thread, but it looks like M51 has it:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.

Do fall OCI, and send applications to firms in all markets you're interested in.

Edited to add: also look at the "Job Postings" tab in symplicity. Lots of jobs posted there in the last few days.

Fall OCI has a mix of 23 gov/non-profit/regional/ip firms signed up. Hard to count on this. Also worth mentioning, if you have no connection with Las Vegas, Alaska, or lexington, you aren't getting those jobs. This whole "just get a regional job" is a myth as well. I have sent out 100 applications, am willing to work anywhere, and have no job.

[---why---]

I'm not some doom and gloom person. I am not 100% dropping out. I did not go to sleep crying last night. These are just issues that I have thought about the last few days and are worth talking about.

[SmurfyRey]

I haven't read every single response in this long thread, but it looks like M51 has it:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.

Do fall OCI, and send applications to firms in all markets you're interested in.

Edited to add: also look at the "Job Postings" tab in symplicity. Lots of jobs posted there in the last few days.

Fall OCI has a mix of 23 gov/non-profit/regional/ip firms signed up. Hard to count on this. Also worth mentioning, if you have no connection with Las Vegas, Alaska, or lexington, you aren't getting those jobs. This whole "just get a regional job" is a myth as well. I have sent out 100 applications, am willing to work anywhere, and have no job.

You know, people in infinitely worse situations have managed to find jobs, so why can't you? And you can't blame it on the economy either, since those same people would also have a more difficult time. That's the question you really need to sit back and ask.

[NewHere]

Have you been to Career Services?

[ToTransferOrNot]

It's interesting that the ones who are most positive about the OP's situation seem to be first years who didn't go through this year's OCI. A lot of really qualified people won't get jobs this year. Platitudes about "being happy at your school" and just waiting for the economy to sort itself out show a denial of reality and are useless to the OP. What the economy is like in 2011 is irrelevant. We 2Ls are getting our jobs now, in this economy.

Yes, because all the available employment info is only given out at 2L OCI to students who are barred from posting that info on ATL, naldirectory, TLS, etc. Further, non-2Ls are barred from talking with lawyers, looking at job openings, etc.

What the 2Ls really have is a sense of panic and despair from being the sheep in the slaughter pen. That is making them miss some very basic facts like: $60k/year small-law firms aren't on the biglaw recruiting schedule. Most people at schools outside the T14 never got 2L SAs through OCI. They got their small-firm jobs at graduation/after taking the bar. This will continue to be the case when OP graduates.

Also, this stuff about making "$60k forever" is amusing. Yeah, boo-hoo, your timing was bad and you're in the lost class and your life sucks. That doesn't mean you get to abandon all rationality and the pretense of trying to make a reasoned decision. Lawyers get raises like everyone else. They have upwards career mobility. Some of the shit in this thread is truly ridiculous. OP would've made more money not going to college and working at McDonalds? Really? Do you realize how much an *average* person makes, much less someone working in food service?

I'm a money-grubbing bastard, but the sense of entitlement is shocking even to me. All you need to get into a top law school is a somewhat decent GPA (and not even that) and a good performance on a 4-hour exam. That doesn't make you a f--king badass. If you want to take your chances in a non-legal career, be my guest. I'm sure you'll rise rapidly through the ranks at your $40k/year job and be making baller money before the rest of us graduate law school.

Well, rayiner, you should keep in mind that to the extent OP would feel entitled (it doesn't seem he does,) it isn't based only on UGPA and LSAT. It's based on that and kicking the hell out of 1L year, giving up LR at his original school, and probably taking a significant increase in loans. The decision to transfer was pretty well-educated; on my end, even the professors and one of the Deans at my old school said I would have been crazy to stay, given the increase in job opportunities. All of the partners I talked to said transfers would be looked on very well. That hasn't been the case--some transfers have done well, but it seems like the vast majority of us have not. This is something of a different situation compared to a "native" who ended up in the bottom quartile of the class at the T14 (because frankly, I would be willing to bet that the people below median at any given T14 probably would not have done well enough at a lower-ranked school to transfer in to that T14.)

[---why---]

Wait, people are smarter than me? Or better interviewers? Or have work experience? Thanks.

I'm not the best thing in the world. I have flaws. However, I know very few people with offers this year. In fact, I personally know 0 people with offers. (I don't know all that many people as a transfer, but still).