Junior flexing on a partner or sr assoc Forum

[Anonymous User]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

I like the aggressive boundary setting.

Recognize that when 215 out of 230 is guaranteed, doesn’t incentivize much more Same goes for when it’s 225 out of 250 and 250 out of 300. All the guaranteed money changes things. The system is set up dis way. Need more discretionary bonuses …..

Edit - also worth noting that the lack of training right now is off the charts. Firms are failing in that regard. Only solution is to throw more money at us

[Anonymous User]

I like the aggressive boundary setting.

Recognize that when 215 out of 230 is guaranteed, doesn’t incentivize much more Same goes for when it’s 225 out of 250 and 250 out of 300. All the guaranteed money changes things. The system is set up dis way. Need more discretionary bonuses …..

This logic only applies if you want the $215, $225. and $250. You reach a point where the firm turns on you and you lose out on the $295+, $345+, etc. Just saying this logic only applies if you want to skip out after a few.

[Anonymous User]

I like the aggressive boundary setting.

Recognize that when 215 out of 230 is guaranteed, doesn’t incentivize much more Same goes for when it’s 225 out of 250 and 250 out of 300. All the guaranteed money changes things. The system is set up dis way. Need more discretionary bonuses …..

This logic only applies if you want the $215, $225. and $250. You reach a point where the firm turns on you and you lose out on the $295+, $345+, etc. Just saying this logic only applies if you want to skip out after a few.

The above was my speculation but I believe in giving it your all even if you plan to leave (maybe a minority view)

How does attrition play into your comment? Seen numerous folks leave this year and makes people care even less

[Anonymous User]

Not going to get into the tiresome junior/senior spats, but where do people get the idea that law school got easier during the pandemic? We had one semester of P/F. One. Yes, they passed everyone. But after that semester, grades came back. I took a summer class that summer. Graded final. I spent half my law school remote, with profs mostly out of reach and no social events. It was not easier than regular law school.

[Anonymous User]

Not going to get into the tiresome junior/senior spats, but where do people get the idea that law school got easier during the pandemic? We had one semester of P/F. One. Yes, they passed everyone. But after that semester, grades came back. I took a summer class that summer. Graded final. I spent half my law school remote, with profs mostly out of reach and no social events. It was not easier than regular law school.

Fair point - without social events I'd have graduated a much better lawyer. Then again I went to Virginia don't remember a single February night, so YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

I also generally blame the current law school/higher ed culture and economy. Lower standards = less competent people, I do not care what the education seminars or faculty that has not worked in a private setting since the 90's (if ever) says.

What lower standards?

During Covid - pass / fail on all courses, no or shorter finals, etc.

pre-covid - moving curve medians up (my law school did this), states making the bar exam easier (e.g., TX going to UBE and dropping the length from 3 to 2 days), larger hiring classes and people being hired because "we need a body" - a conversation I had multiple times before I left BL.

What do bar exam standards have to do with this when biglaw hires people well before they take the bar?

I just know that I (a 2nd year) dont work saturdays because my 3L trusts and estates class was pass/fail.

[legalpotato]

Not going to get into the tiresome junior/senior spats, but where do people get the idea that law school got easier during the pandemic? We had one semester of P/F. One. Yes, they passed everyone. But after that semester, grades came back. I took a summer class that summer. Graded final. I spent half my law school remote, with profs mostly out of reach and no social events. It was not easier than regular law school.

Yeah the "easier law school" thing is nonsense. Juniors are bad, but that has more to do with market conditions (i.e., they can get away with murder at the moment without fear of losing their job).

[Anonymous User]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

I blame the pandemic, especially if you are talking about first year associates that started last fall. They spent half of law school remote, pass/fail (if graded at all) and are 100% into WFH generally. I also generally blame the current law school/higher ed culture and economy. Lower standards = less competent people, I do not care what the education seminars or faculty that has not worked in a private setting since the 90's (if ever) says. Add to that absurd amounts of work and the hottest lateral market in recent memory and many seem to feel like "go ahead, try and fire me".

I am out of the BL game now, but noticed a decline in JR associate quality over the last 2-3 years. Some was absolutely the fault of covid, wfh and the inability (or unwillingness to get on yet another teams call after being on them for 8 hours in my case) to train effectively/answer questions timely. I realize this site is generally anti-return to office, but it is much harder to call someone to ask a question (especially if you have never met in person) than it is to walk down the hall to their office.

Finally, to answer the question of the thread, it happens I guess, but many partners could buy out most associates on a monetary level, and really, no one cares what watch you wear.

The juniors were absolutely worse during WFH (probably in large or whole part because I was bad at training them remotely) and it's gotten better since RTO.


I've never worn a watch in my life and never once heard anyone discussing anyone else's watch around the office

[mwells_56]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

Most of the expectations on juniors are unwritten and are easier to pick up if you’re all in the office (I.e. don’t go home early if the seniors are all still in working). Most associates and partners are also very passive aggressive and won’t explicitly correct behaviour of their jrs.

I think you have a lot of jrs that have no idea what this job really entails, they rarely see or talk to their classmates so they have no idea what others are doing, and they make assumptions about how to practice that are wildly different.

As a first year, this I think has been my biggest hurdle since I started in the fall. I know this is impractical but I wish I had at least one other first year on all my projects just to bounce stuff of each other. Since lawyers are also weird about this kind of stuff it's impossible for me to gauge how others are doing on hours or their relations with more senior attorneys just through random groupme messages.

[Anonymous User]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

Most of the expectations on juniors are unwritten and are easier to pick up if you’re all in the office (I.e. don’t go home early if the seniors are all still in working). Most associates and partners are also very passive aggressive and won’t explicitly correct behaviour of their jrs.

I think you have a lot of jrs that have no idea what this job really entails, they rarely see or talk to their classmates so they have no idea what others are doing, and they make assumptions about how to practice that are wildly different.

As a first year, this I think has been my biggest hurdle since I started in the fall. I know this is impractical but I wish I had at least one other first year on all my projects just to bounce stuff of each other. Since lawyers are also weird about this kind of stuff it's impossible for me to gauge how others are doing on hours or their relations with more senior attorneys just through random groupme messages.

To the poster encouraging juniors to stay at the office until seniors leave for the day. Why? Seems over the top at best and authoritarian at worst

[Anonymous User]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

Most of the expectations on juniors are unwritten and are easier to pick up if you’re all in the office (I.e. don’t go home early if the seniors are all still in working). Most associates and partners are also very passive aggressive and won’t explicitly correct behaviour of their jrs.

I think you have a lot of jrs that have no idea what this job really entails, they rarely see or talk to their classmates so they have no idea what others are doing, and they make assumptions about how to practice that are wildly different.

As a first year, this I think has been my biggest hurdle since I started in the fall. I know this is impractical but I wish I had at least one other first year on all my projects just to bounce stuff of each other. Since lawyers are also weird about this kind of stuff it's impossible for me to gauge how others are doing on hours or their relations with more senior attorneys just through random groupme messages.

To the poster encouraging juniors to stay at the office until seniors leave for the day. Why? Seems over the top at best and authoritarian at worst

That advice is completely out of touch with the reality of hybrid work. It's very silly to stay late! Go home. See your family, if you have one. Start one if you don't. The log in until midnight if you have to.

[Right2BearArms]

Not going to get into the tiresome junior/senior spats, but where do people get the idea that law school got easier during the pandemic? We had one semester of P/F. One. Yes, they passed everyone. But after that semester, grades came back. I took a summer class that summer. Graded final. I spent half my law school remote, with profs mostly out of reach and no social events. It was not easier than regular law school.

Yeah the "easier law school" thing is nonsense. Juniors are bad, but that has more to do with market conditions (i.e., they can get away with murder at the moment without fear of losing their job).

Maybe. IDK.

Seemed like C/O 2019 was worse than C/O 2018 and then 2020 and 2021 were kinda absurd at times (excusable due to covid and other conditions, including my (and other senior associate/partner's) inability to train effectively in a remote setting until we caught up with the learning curve.

Also totally possible that by my 5th year I was unhappy/jaded enough to prejudice my outlook and evaluation of any new hire, if that is the case, I feel more rage at the job/business model than other associates, but will gladly own my own role in perpetuating the cycle.

[Right2BearArms]

We get an NDA from institutional client that has to be done that day; partner asks 1st year to do it; she says she can't because she is at a power-woman conference and asks if I can handle in a reply-all email (I was a 5th year); I do

I can relate to this and it’s rampant. I had 4-5 jrs leave early (think 4pm, doesn’t answer emails) / take days off first couple weeks after starting. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart but wtf is going on with new gen of jrs? There’s little to no work ethic. I thought maybe it was just me but other mid/seniors have said the same thing. Its like you know there are always those associates that just want to “ride it out” but now its like 80% of them do or simply don’t care.

Most of the expectations on juniors are unwritten and are easier to pick up if you’re all in the office (I.e. don’t go home early if the seniors are all still in working). Most associates and partners are also very passive aggressive and won’t explicitly correct behaviour of their jrs.

I think you have a lot of jrs that have no idea what this job really entails, they rarely see or talk to their classmates so they have no idea what others are doing, and they make assumptions about how to practice that are wildly different.

As a first year, this I think has been my biggest hurdle since I started in the fall. I know this is impractical but I wish I had at least one other first year on all my projects just to bounce stuff of each other. Since lawyers are also weird about this kind of stuff it's impossible for me to gauge how others are doing on hours or their relations with more senior attorneys just through random groupme messages.

To the poster encouraging juniors to stay at the office until seniors leave for the day. Why? Seems over the top at best and authoritarian at worst

That advice is completely out of touch with the reality of hybrid work. It's very silly to stay late! Go home. See your family, if you have one. Start one if you don't. The log in until midnight if you have to.

This is the right advice. Sitting in the office is stupid (and I regret the nonmaterial number of nights I did it as a jr associate). Remote set ups and VPNs are so good now, if you have nothing to do at 4 or 5, go home, or workout, or run errands. Everyone has email on their phone, you are not unreachable in any place you are likely to be 100% of any weekday.

Also, if you respond in 30 min instead of 10, chances are no one will notice or care.

Also, also (and this was my outlook so YMMV), if you need or want to bounce things off of someone, dont feel bad about asking a midlevel or senior associate if they have time to talk through or explain a deal/issue. When I had time, I loved talking through documents or deals with the class year associates below me. It made me think about things in a different way (teaching vs. negotiating/trying to just get it out the door) and also was an opportunity for me to mentor, which was one of my favorite parts of being at a big firm. Obviously don't barge in and take 30 min when someone is busy/clearly working on something else, but if you swing by with a question, and it naturally turns into a conversation, that is a good thing IMO.

[Anonymous User]

Seemed like C/O 2019 was worse than C/O 2018 and then 2020 and 2021 were kinda absurd at times (excusable due to covid and other conditions, including my (and other senior associate/partner's) inability to train effectively in a remote setting until we caught up with the learning curve.

Also totally possible that by my 5th year I was unhappy/jaded enough to prejudice my outlook and evaluation of any new hire, if that is the case, I feel more rage at the job/business model than other associates, but will gladly own my own role in perpetuating the cycle.

I'm a junior so limited perspective but I do wonder how much of this is legit juniors getting worse v the usual thing of later generations complaining about the youth these days. Or maybe just survivorship bias.

As a 5th year, you and your colleagues are the minority your starting class who survived biglaw for 5 years. You were the good juniors. How hard working were the juniors who bounced out after 2-3 years or even sooner? But you never managed them. You just remember working hard.

[thisismytlsuername]

Seemed like C/O 2019 was worse than C/O 2018 and then 2020 and 2021 were kinda absurd at times (excusable due to covid and other conditions, including my (and other senior associate/partner's) inability to train effectively in a remote setting until we caught up with the learning curve.

Also totally possible that by my 5th year I was unhappy/jaded enough to prejudice my outlook and evaluation of any new hire, if that is the case, I feel more rage at the job/business model than other associates, but will gladly own my own role in perpetuating the cycle.

I'm a junior so limited perspective but I do wonder how much of this is legit juniors getting worse v the usual thing of later generations complaining about the youth these days. Or maybe just survivorship bias.

As a 5th year, you and your colleagues are the minority your starting class who survived biglaw for 5 years. You were the good juniors. How hard working were the juniors who bounced out after 2-3 years or even sooner? But you never managed them. You just remember working hard.

I think a huge part of it is that attorneys who started in biglaw in 2008-2013 have, for the most part, been terrified of losing their jobs for their entire careers. Post 2013, the market shifted in favor of associates culminating in the past few years in which associates have had more bargaining power than they have maybe ever had before. I think that's a big contributor to junior associates' willingness to set boundaries about not working on weekends, vacations, etc (what, are they going to fire me? they need me) that just didn't exist a decade ago. There's also the general anti-work movement (it's a job, not my life) that is more prevalent nowadays. Those plus hybrid work plus better remote tech allowing for more flexibility) when I started we had remote desktop or virtual desktop via Citrix) makes older lawyers think new lawyers are lazy / don't work hard enough / don't sacrifice enough for their jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Seemed like C/O 2019 was worse than C/O 2018 and then 2020 and 2021 were kinda absurd at times (excusable due to covid and other conditions, including my (and other senior associate/partner's) inability to train effectively in a remote setting until we caught up with the learning curve.

Also totally possible that by my 5th year I was unhappy/jaded enough to prejudice my outlook and evaluation of any new hire, if that is the case, I feel more rage at the job/business model than other associates, but will gladly own my own role in perpetuating the cycle.

I'm a junior so limited perspective but I do wonder how much of this is legit juniors getting worse v the usual thing of later generations complaining about the youth these days. Or maybe just survivorship bias.

As a 5th year, you and your colleagues are the minority your starting class who survived biglaw for 5 years. You were the good juniors. How hard working were the juniors who bounced out after 2-3 years or even sooner? But you never managed them. You just remember working hard.

I think a huge part of it is that attorneys who started in biglaw in 2008-2013 have, for the most part, been terrified of losing their jobs for their entire careers. Post 2013, the market shifted in favor of associates culminating in the past few years in which associates have had more bargaining power than they have maybe ever had before. I think that's a big contributor to junior associates' willingness to set boundaries about not working on weekends, vacations, etc (what, are they going to fire me? they need me) that just didn't exist a decade ago. There's also the general anti-work movement (it's a job, not my life) that is more prevalent nowadays. Those plus hybrid work plus better remote tech allowing for more flexibility) when I started we had remote desktop or virtual desktop via Citrix) makes older lawyers think new lawyers are lazy / don't work hard enough / don't sacrifice enough for their jobs.

Makes sense that would be a factor but I seem to find this attitude more in seniors who graduated c 2014-2016, whereas partners who graduated in the really rough times are more chill.

Also did anyone say in around 2010 "wow the juniors are so much better now than in the boom years of 2005"? This seems to go only one way. Nor is antiwork a new concept. They were making movies about it in the 80s and 90s.

I also haven't seen anyone equating WFH with laziness. If anything it's been appreciated that I'm available late at night and on weekends, and nobody expects me to be in the office physically then.

[Anonymous User]

Seemed like C/O 2019 was worse than C/O 2018 and then 2020 and 2021 were kinda absurd at times (excusable due to covid and other conditions, including my (and other senior associate/partner's) inability to train effectively in a remote setting until we caught up with the learning curve.

Also totally possible that by my 5th year I was unhappy/jaded enough to prejudice my outlook and evaluation of any new hire, if that is the case, I feel more rage at the job/business model than other associates, but will gladly own my own role in perpetuating the cycle.

I'm a junior so limited perspective but I do wonder how much of this is legit juniors getting worse v the usual thing of later generations complaining about the youth these days. Or maybe just survivorship bias.

As a 5th year, you and your colleagues are the minority your starting class who survived biglaw for 5 years. You were the good juniors. How hard working were the juniors who bounced out after 2-3 years or even sooner? But you never managed them. You just remember working hard.

I think this is huge. People who were good juniors don't know what it was like to manage their cohort who didn't end up sticking around, so are shocked when they find the people they manage as seniors aren't like they were. (If someone's been a partner for 20 years and is making this observation, it's maybe a little more credible.)

I can accept that on-boarding new juniors virtually has probably changed a lot of things and made it harder (especially those who did their SA virtually). Not to re-open the WFH/RTO battle, but I do think that it's a lot harder to absorb your office's norms - norms that everyone you work for has absorbed without thinking about it - virtually than from home. Like if you summered and did your first year virtually, not leaving before the senior you're working for just isn't a thing to learn, but it may be something your office expects you to do when you're there. (Not saying this *should* be expected, totally agree with the point about not needing to do that in a hybrid office, but that doesn't mean people don't expect it.) I think the problem is when people say "juniors are worse than ever were!" based on these kinds of things, they are often expecting juniors to follow norms that they just don't know, at the same time that it sounds like they don't actually train juniors on what those norms are. No one is born knowing the expectations in a given biglaw firm, especially K-JDs who may never have had a 9-5 job before that. If you started the job in person, you probably learned a lot about what people want just by showing up and being around them.

(Which isn't to say that attitudes aren't changing as well, or that the different economies/job security don't play a role.)

[Anonymous User]

I also think part of it is when something goes wrong, or an assignment isn't done well, it's easier to be forgiving if you can talk to the person who goofed in person: seeing their body language, hearing their voice in person, etc., gives you context for the error, and most people are gentler to someone face to face than they would be over the phone (or worse - over email). If you have never met a person face to face and the majority of your communication is over email, it is difficult to get a sense of them as a person and easier to see them as an error-prone machine. Of course there are people who will be jerks face to face too, but I think that is contributing to the perception that juniors are worse.

[Anonymous User]

I also think part of it is when something goes wrong, or an assignment isn't done well, it's easier to be forgiving if you can talk to the person who goofed in person: seeing their body language, hearing their voice in person, etc., gives you context for the error, and most people are gentler to someone face to face than they would be over the phone (or worse - over email). If you have never met a person face to face and the majority of your communication is over email, it is difficult to get a sense of them as a person and easier to see them as an error-prone machine. Of course there are people who will be jerks face to face too, but I think that is contributing to the perception that juniors are worse.

Flip side from the management perspective is it's easier to put the pressure on someone in a nuanced but effective and respectful way in person. I always walk back strongly worded emails because I feel bad pushing too hard, but I end up being a bit of a pushover in doing so. Calls are better, but still not the same when you can't read body language.