How much does physical attractiveness matter in big law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

- Ceteris paribus, more weight literally puts a greater load on your joints. If strapping barbells to someone's body would be bad for their health (we know this is true because of what happens to soldiers' knees from all that rucking), then so is carrying extra fat.

- Having more flesh means a greater cardiovascular cross-section that your heart has to pump through. Fat storage therefore increases strain on your heart for literally no upside. Like the above, this is a simple mechanical consequence of carrying extra fat.

- Obstructive sleep apnea is an example of a specific health problem which is directly, unequivocally caused by the bodies of fat surrounding an obese person's airway. The weight literally weighs down on your neck and makes it harder to breathe while sleeping, which reduces the quality of sleep and therefore causes other health problems.

Then you've got the whole galaxy of problems caused by excess fat/cholesterol in your bloodstream, liver etc. which aren't precisely caused by obesity but which are directly aggravated by the primary causes of obesity (overeating and/or lack of exercise) so that causation/correlation is a distinction without difference.

Get your head out of the sand, dude. You can't confuse uncertainty about the degree and kind of obesity's deleterious effects for uncertainty about the existence of such problems. This is like climate change, except that 1) it will hit you sooner and much more acutely than climate change 2) it is within your power to prevent it.

The science around weight and health is actually way more complex and contested than that. But I won't pursue this further either b/c it is outside the scope of the thread.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

[The Lsat Airbender]

- Ceteris paribus, more weight literally puts a greater load on your joints. If strapping barbells to someone's body would be bad for their health (we know this is true because of what happens to soldiers' knees from all that rucking), then so is carrying extra fat.

- Having more flesh means a greater cardiovascular cross-section that your heart has to pump through. Fat storage therefore increases strain on your heart for literally no upside. Like the above, this is a simple mechanical consequence of carrying extra fat.

- Obstructive sleep apnea is an example of a specific health problem which is directly, unequivocally caused by the bodies of fat surrounding an obese person's airway. The weight literally weighs down on your neck and makes it harder to breathe while sleeping, which reduces the quality of sleep and therefore causes other health problems.

Then you've got the whole galaxy of problems caused by excess fat/cholesterol in your bloodstream, liver etc. which aren't precisely caused by obesity but which are directly aggravated by the primary causes of obesity (overeating and/or lack of exercise) so that causation/correlation is a distinction without difference.

Get your head out of the sand, dude. You can't confuse uncertainty about the degree and kind of obesity's deleterious effects for uncertainty about the existence of such problems. This is like climate change, except that 1) it will hit you sooner and much more acutely than climate change 2) it is within your power to prevent it.

The science around weight and health is actually way more complex and contested than that. But I won't pursue this further either b/c it is outside the scope of the thread.

If you want to shelter in the "complex and contested" motte, that's fine. I'll take it as a concession that while there may be uncertainty about the degree and kind (or, say, complexity) of obesity's deleterious effects, there can be no uncertainty about the existence of such problems.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

I’m the anon referenced - this is an interesting take. I still think that controlling for everything else including class etc. , an obese 2L is going to have worse OCI outcomes than a normal-weight one. I don’t think this is specific to biglaw, although I think the OCI process lends itself to more snap/surface level judgments than hiring practices in other industries and that negatively affects obese applicants (and many other types of applicants).

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

I’m the anon referenced - this is an interesting take. I still think that controlling for everything else including class etc. , an obese 2L is going to have worse OCI outcomes than a normal-weight one. I don’t think this is specific to biglaw, although I think the OCI process lends itself to more snap/surface level judgments than hiring practices in other industries and that negatively affects obese applicants (and many other types of applicants).

I suppose we’ll be able to test this hypothesis when we see the profile of biglaw classes hired virtually (c/o 2022-2023) versus those hired in person. I think body shape plays a lesser role over Zoom.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

I’m not the person you responded to but I think the logic is pretty easy to follow.

Obesity is linked to lower class.

Lower class is linked to more first-generation lawyers (or first-generation professionals).

First-generation 2Ls are less experienced at the unwritten rules of networking and gladhanding than their better-connected peers.

Less experience with networking, and less awareness of networking norms, results in worse job outcomes.

[Anonymous User]

And/or fatphobia, of course.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

I’m not the person you responded to but I think the logic is pretty easy to follow.

Obesity is linked to lower class.

Lower class is linked to more first-generation lawyers (or first-generation professionals).

First-generation 2Ls are less experienced at the unwritten rules of networking and gladhanding than their better-connected peers.

Less experience with networking, and less awareness of networking norms, results in worse job outcomes.

Seems like you just gave a pretty good explanation of why this is correlation without causation.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

I’m not the person you responded to but I think the logic is pretty easy to follow.

Obesity is linked to lower class.

Lower class is linked to more first-generation lawyers (or first-generation professionals).

First-generation 2Ls are less experienced at the unwritten rules of networking and gladhanding than their better-connected peers.

Less experience with networking, and less awareness of networking norms, results in worse job outcomes.

Seems like you just gave a pretty good explanation of why this is correlation without causation.

Where is there no causal link? Does lower socioeconomic class not cause higher obesity rates? Does a lack of professional history in one’s family not cause a lower level of familiarity with “networking”? What’s your point?

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

I’m not the person you responded to but I think the logic is pretty easy to follow.

Obesity is linked to lower class.

Lower class is linked to more first-generation lawyers (or first-generation professionals).

First-generation 2Ls are less experienced at the unwritten rules of networking and gladhanding than their better-connected peers.

Less experience with networking, and less awareness of networking norms, results in worse job outcomes.

Seems like you just gave a pretty good explanation of why this is correlation without causation.

Where is there no causal link? Does lower socioeconomic class not cause higher obesity rates? Does a lack of professional history in one’s family not cause a lower level of familiarity with “networking”? What’s your point?

You're saying that both stem from the same cause: lower socioeconomic status. Not that being obese leads to weaker outcomes. So my point is that an individual who is obese can safely ignore this: if they are from a lower socioeconomic background, they should practice interviewing and generally do as much as they can to overcome it. And if they're from from upper class or UPM etc, they have no need to.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have any info on how biglaw lawyers view gym enthusiasts (gym rats)?

Not bodybuilding status but a guy who clearly lifts heavy and looks like it?

I’m also black so when I grew my hair out during COVID an older partner enthusiastically told me I look like (problematic football star) Ricky Williams

[Anonymous User]

Mid-level male in NYC here. Taking care of yourself always is beneficial, whether it's easy to admit or not. I think biglaw is probably less "looks" focused than some other industries, but it's definitely worth putting in the extra effort to look good. I focus a lot on looks and I think it's really helped me in my career. It helps with getting a good reputation without having to do extra legwork.

This will be focused on guys, but some of the things I would recommend would be:

• Regular, flattering haircuts (find a good barber that will work with your face shape)

• Teeth whitening (Crest white strips are great and very affordable)

• Trimming any facial hair and taking care of your eyebrows (consider getting threaded, it's cheap, easy but looks great)

• Well-fitting clothing (see below for more)

• Daily moisturizer, SPF, retinol, etc.

• When in the office, keep a toothbrush, toothpaste, deodorant, hair gel on hand so you can always freshen up before a meeting

• Keeping fit (don't need to be a gym rat, but being active is good)

• Taking daily vitamins and keeping well-hydrated

These are also some things to consider, though a bit more time-consuming and/or expense:

• Preventative Botox 3-4x a year (to prevent wrinkles)

• Prescription retinoids to diminish wrinkles and prevent aging

• Finasteride prescription to prevent hair loss, as well as minoxidil if you are experiencing thinning at the crown of your head

• Regular weightlifting with supplements (e.g., creatine for muscle growth)

Also, this may be controversial, but don't focus on buying overly expensive suits, clothes, watches and shoes. Buy nice, well-fitting but affordable clothes from a variety of places. You'll come off as much more well-dressed if you have a big rotation of well-fitting and flattering outfits, as opposed to a couple of really expenses stuff that you wear all of the time.

[Anonymous User]

• Preventative Botox 3-4x a year (to prevent wrinkles)

• Prescription retinoids to diminish wrinkles and prevent aging

[Anonymous User]

Mid-level male in NYC here. Taking care of yourself always is beneficial, whether it's easy to admit or not. I think biglaw is probably less "looks" focused than some other industries, but it's definitely worth putting in the extra effort to look good. I focus a lot on looks and I think it's really helped me in my career. It helps with getting a good reputation without having to do extra legwork.

This will be focused on guys, but some of the things I would recommend would be:

• Regular, flattering haircuts (find a good barber that will work with your face shape)

• Teeth whitening (Crest white strips are great and very affordable)

• Trimming any facial hair and taking care of your eyebrows (consider getting threaded, it's cheap, easy but looks great)

• Well-fitting clothing (see below for more)

• Daily moisturizer, SPF, retinol, etc.

• When in the office, keep a toothbrush, toothpaste, deodorant, hair gel on hand so you can always freshen up before a meeting

• Keeping fit (don't need to be a gym rat, but being active is good)

• Taking daily vitamins and keeping well-hydrated

These are also some things to consider, though a bit more time-consuming and/or expense:

• Preventative Botox 3-4x a year (to prevent wrinkles)

• Prescription retinoids to diminish wrinkles and prevent aging

• Finasteride prescription to prevent hair loss, as well as minoxidil if you are experiencing thinning at the crown of your head

• Regular weightlifting with supplements (e.g., creatine for muscle growth)

Also, this may be controversial, but don't focus on buying overly expensive suits, clothes, watches and shoes. Buy nice, well-fitting but affordable clothes from a variety of places. You'll come off as much more well-dressed if you have a big rotation of well-fitting and flattering outfits, as opposed to a couple of really expenses stuff that you wear all of the time.

A lot of bad advice here IMO. I’m not doing Botox, applying retanoids, and taking finasteride and creatine because I think it will help my biglaw career. The industry is already dystopian enough. You do you though.

Just try to eat healthy and move more.

[Anonymous User]

because biglaw is culturally upper middle class. in that context, being obese seems low class and outside the norm. Being merely overweight is par for the course (those standards are pretty unrealistic... a 5'10" man is supposed to be 173 pounds max) but being notably obese is not.

This is it. The reason why the earlier anon may have observed obese people struggling in OCI is probably a class factor. Obesity is linked more closely to lower and lower middle class folks who are probably more likely to be first generation lawyers. First generation lawyers undoubtedly have a more difficult experience getting the hang of law school and law firm networking norms.

Sorry what networking norm is don’t be an obese person? How does that have to do with getting the hang of law school or a law school norm?

I’m not the person you responded to but I think the logic is pretty easy to follow.

Obesity is linked to lower class.

Lower class is linked to more first-generation lawyers (or first-generation professionals).

First-generation 2Ls are less experienced at the unwritten rules of networking and gladhanding than their better-connected peers.

Less experience with networking, and less awareness of networking norms, results in worse job outcomes.

Seems like you just gave a pretty good explanation of why this is correlation without causation.

Where is there no causal link? Does lower socioeconomic class not cause higher obesity rates? Does a lack of professional history in one’s family not cause a lower level of familiarity with “networking”? What’s your point?

You're saying that both stem from the same cause: lower socioeconomic status. Not that being obese leads to weaker outcomes. So my point is that an individual who is obese can safely ignore this: if they are from a lower socioeconomic background, they should practice interviewing and generally do as much as they can to overcome it. And if they're from from upper class or UPM etc, they have no need to.

But perception is reality. Even if a morbidly obese first year's dad is a surgeon, that first year will still look less classy, maybe not in your eyes but at least in the eyes of some colleagues.

Picture a wealthy upper east side housewife who lives in an 8 figure co-op unit -- you thought of a thin person, right? But in real life some of the people in that demographic are obese.

As for the guy saying men need botox and retinoids, I think that's dumb. It hasn't helped Putin's popularity, either. Maybe addressing hair loss would be helpful, but looking older is generally not a bad thing for a male professional, and it might even help you garner more respect.

[Anonymous User]

I will not use botox. I will not take weird supplements. I will not cover up my baldness.

It's like this person decided the solution to the makeup tax is to have men do this too.

[Anonymous User]

Better option if you're balding is to just shave. You'll be read as more masculine + aggressive than if you're thinning up top. If you're also fit and actually aggro, you have the makings of a potent combination. If you aren't, well, try and become those things.

Edit: also lol @ "not taking creatine" it's one of the most normie supplements possible. If you want to have better lifts, it's just about the easiest thing you can do. As for the botox/retinoids/finasteride, yeah skip that unless you're extraordinarily vain

[Anonymous User]

Better option if you're balding is to just shave. You'll be read as more masculine + aggressive than if you're thinning up top. If you're also fit and actually aggro, you have the makings of a potent combination. If you aren't, well, try and become those things.

Edit: also lol @ "not taking creatine" it's one of the most normie supplements possible. If you want to have better lifts, it's just about the easiest thing you can do. As for the botox/retinoids/finasteride, yeah skip that unless you're extraordinarily vain

I’m that first gym rat anon and I support turning this thread/forum into lifting and fitness tips.

Do you prefer working out before work for the sick pump, or after work to get that misplaced aggression out?

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate. On the topic of fitness, I’m wondering what are the prospects me “sneaking out” of the office midday for gym time as a first year corp associate?

Will any of the flexibility (reclaiming bits of personal time) that seemed to characterize WFH stick around as firms pivot back around RTO? Or is the question completely moot because I’m not likely to have ~1 hour of downtime in the middle of any given day as a junior?

(FWIW, I’m heading to one of the stuffier NY firms. And yes, ideally I would just become a morning exercise person, but I’m just being realistic here.)

Other thoughts & tips on exercise and healthier living as a BL associate are welcome.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate. On the topic of fitness, I’m wondering what are the prospects me “sneaking out” of the office midday for gym time as a first year corp associate?

Will any of the flexibility (reclaiming bits of personal time) that seemed to characterize WFH stick around as firms pivot back around RTO? Or is the question completely moot because I’m not likely to have ~1 hour of downtime in the middle of any given day as a junior?

(FWIW, I’m heading to one of the stuffier NY firms. And yes, ideally I would just become a morning exercise person, but I’m just being realistic here.)

at my v20 nobody would care at most times. but if your whole team is rushing toward a signing or closing, and you're in a steam room at Equinox spraying eucalyptus oil, then that may pose a problem.

[Anonymous User]

Mid-level male in NYC here. Taking care of yourself always is beneficial, whether it's easy to admit or not. I think biglaw is probably less "looks" focused than some other industries, but it's definitely worth putting in the extra effort to look good. I focus a lot on looks and I think it's really helped me in my career. It helps with getting a good reputation without having to do extra legwork.

This will be focused on guys, but some of the things I would recommend would be:

• Regular, flattering haircuts (find a good barber that will work with your face shape)

• Teeth whitening (Crest white strips are great and very affordable)

• Trimming any facial hair and taking care of your eyebrows (consider getting threaded, it's cheap, easy but looks great)

• Well-fitting clothing (see below for more)

• Daily moisturizer, SPF, retinol, etc.

• When in the office, keep a toothbrush, toothpaste, deodorant, hair gel on hand so you can always freshen up before a meeting

• Keeping fit (don't need to be a gym rat, but being active is good)

• Taking daily vitamins and keeping well-hydrated

These are also some things to consider, though a bit more time-consuming and/or expense:

• Preventative Botox 3-4x a year (to prevent wrinkles)

• Prescription retinoids to diminish wrinkles and prevent aging

• Finasteride prescription to prevent hair loss, as well as minoxidil if you are experiencing thinning at the crown of your head

• Regular weightlifting with supplements (e.g., creatine for muscle growth)

Also, this may be controversial, but don't focus on buying overly expensive suits, clothes, watches and shoes. Buy nice, well-fitting but affordable clothes from a variety of places. You'll come off as much more well-dressed if you have a big rotation of well-fitting and flattering outfits, as opposed to a couple of really expenses stuff that you wear all of the time.

This is not a heavy lift compared to what women do to keep up looks. I do pretty much everything on this list, but I’m also single so that plays into how much effort I put into my appearances. Curious if OP is in the same boat or if anyone else considers that factor.

[Anonymous User]

"Sneaking out" for over an hour every day in the middle of the day is probably unrealistic. But it's an exaggeration to say that you'll never have downtime. You'll learn how to structure it.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate. On the topic of fitness, I’m wondering what are the prospects me “sneaking out” of the office midday for gym time as a first year corp associate?

Will any of the flexibility (reclaiming bits of personal time) that seemed to characterize WFH stick around as firms pivot back around RTO? Or is the question completely moot because I’m not likely to have ~1 hour of downtime in the middle of any given day as a junior?

(FWIW, I’m heading to one of the stuffier NY firms. And yes, ideally I would just become a morning exercise person, but I’m just being realistic here.)

Other thoughts & tips on exercise and healthier living as a BL associate are welcome.

If your gym is in your building, I think you have a chance of making this happen. Otherwise, it will be challenging and I wouldn’t plan on the hour being at a consistent time during the work week.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have any info on how biglaw lawyers view gym enthusiasts (gym rats)?

Not bodybuilding status but a guy who clearly lifts heavy and looks like it?

I’m also black so when I grew my hair out during COVID an older partner enthusiastically told me I look like (problematic football star) Ricky Williams

I don't see how resembling Ricky Williams is an issue, especially if you happen to be working in a TX office with UT Austin alums. Anyways, to answer your first question I don't think anyone will look down on your fitness passion unless you are letting it get in the way of basic personal hygiene.