Or just hold the same line as the junior/say you cannot staff the matter/shove the junior under the bus. I am not sure why you are ragging on juniors for doing something you are unwilling to do.legalpotato wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:00 pmBut it is a two way street. What do you expect of a senior if a partner says "hey sorry for weekend email, can you and x do this by sunday". So you email x to give him/her a piece of the overall assignment, let him/her know of time sensitivity, and he/her doesn't respond until sat evening with "ok, I will do this on Monday"? So then senior just has to stay up later saturday night doing the whole thing.
Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training Forum
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
For the people complaining about juniors not responding to last minute night/weekend work - are you just e-mailing them? I've missed unanticipated weekend assignments before because I wasn't expecting to have to work that weekend and wasn't checking my e-mail super regularly, but had the senior called me I would have noticed and picked up.
And don't say "well you should be checking your e-mail all the time!!" That's total shit and contributes to burnout...if you're going to fuck up someone's weekend you should at least do them the courtesy of picking up the phone and calling them.
And don't say "well you should be checking your e-mail all the time!!" That's total shit and contributes to burnout...if you're going to fuck up someone's weekend you should at least do them the courtesy of picking up the phone and calling them.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
You don't get email on your phone?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:18 pmFor the people complaining about juniors not responding to last minute night/weekend work - are you just e-mailing them? I've missed unanticipated weekend assignments before because I wasn't expecting to have to work that weekend and wasn't checking my e-mail super regularly, but had the senior called me I would have noticed and picked up.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
I do, but I also get a huge volume of e-mails that don't require me to respond that weekend or at all so it's easy to miss (especially if you bury the lede), or I just am doing something else and don't check for a while. The assumption that everyone is just going to be proactively checking e-mails every 30 minutes all weekend even when they don't have other work to do and aren't expecting anything to come in that they need to handle is one of the more toxic aspects of biglaw. If you want to ruin my weekend, pick up the damn phone and make a call. And I say this as a now 6th year btw.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:20 pmYou don't get email on your phone?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:18 pmFor the people complaining about juniors not responding to last minute night/weekend work - are you just e-mailing them? I've missed unanticipated weekend assignments before because I wasn't expecting to have to work that weekend and wasn't checking my e-mail super regularly, but had the senior called me I would have noticed and picked up.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Also do they know that the juniors are off partying and not doing other weekend work...Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:18 pmFor the people complaining about juniors not responding to last minute night/weekend work - are you just e-mailing them? I've missed unanticipated weekend assignments before because I wasn't expecting to have to work that weekend and wasn't checking my e-mail super regularly, but had the senior called me I would have noticed and picked up.
And don't say "well you should be checking your e-mail all the time!!" That's total shit and contributes to burnout...if you're going to fuck up someone's weekend you should at least do them the courtesy of picking up the phone and calling them.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
As a junior, I agree. This also applies to asking me stuff over Skype instead of email. If my phone rings, I’m definitely going to notice and answer. Texts will be noticed slightly after that. Then email, which I will check on nights and weekends but NOT super frequently unless I’m expecting something inbound. Lastly, I’ll see a Skype message if I’m actually sitting at my work laptop, but there’s no way in hell I’m randomly checking that for no reason during “off hours” if there’s no reason to - instead I’ll carry my work phone around and check that.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:22 pmI do, but I also get a huge volume of e-mails that don't require me to respond that weekend or at all so it's easy to miss (especially if you bury the lede), or I just am doing something else and don't check for a while. The assumption that everyone is just going to be proactively checking e-mails every 30 minutes all weekend even when they don't have other work to do and aren't expecting anything to come in that they need to handle is one of the more toxic aspects of biglaw. If you want to ruin my weekend, pick up the damn phone and make a call. And I say this as a now 6th year btw.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:20 pmYou don't get email on your phone?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:18 pmFor the people complaining about juniors not responding to last minute night/weekend work - are you just e-mailing them? I've missed unanticipated weekend assignments before because I wasn't expecting to have to work that weekend and wasn't checking my e-mail super regularly, but had the senior called me I would have noticed and picked up.
There’s a huge psychological difference between having an incoming request grab my attention and interrupt my free time, and me proactively checking for messages and being distracted by the possibility of a request. Way less burnout for the first one, but it should make approximately zero practical difference to the senior’s ability to reach me.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Not much point in discussing this further I suppose - don't know how many more times to explain how the system works and how, it doesn't just make you a bad employee to screw someone over, it also makes you a bad person.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:16 pmI can't speak for anyone else, but as a junior sure I'll do the weekend work if you give me the deadline. Mutual respect is great. I'm all for mutual respect, as long at it's actually mutual ya know? And the comments from some of the seniors here don't show that they're willing to reciprocate.legalpotato wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:00 pmBut it is a two way street. What do you expect of a senior if a partner says "hey sorry for weekend email, can you and x do this by sunday". So you email x to give him/her a piece of the overall assignment, let him/her know of time sensitivity, and he/her doesn't respond until sat evening with "ok, I will do this on Monday"? So then senior just has to stay up later saturday night doing the whole thing.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:51 amIt's insane how delusional some of these seniors are. Taking out the human side of it, look at it from a rational actor perspective. At most firms, I don't make a dime after xxxx hours (whatever my bonus is), and no one is going to fire me because of how pressed for labor everyone is and because my work product is still good. Most of us are not here to make partner. Accordingly, I have no incentive to work more than xxxx hours per year. The only time I'm going to break that pattern is for a partner/counsel/senior that I really like and respect, who I don't want to get screwed totally over the weekend/late night.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:43 amif someone decides that getting fired or pushed out due to X hours isn't the worst thing in the world, then you have no leverage if your only arguments are "this is the way biglaw is and should be, deal with it or get kicked to the curb when the market slows". once more and more people start thinking that way, maybe you should adjust your approach if you keep getting stonewalled or having issues.
the only way to reliably get someone to work harder despite them not being committed to the biglaw grind is to have them actually like you as a person and care about not making your life harder than it needs to be. seems obvious from a managerial perspective, but the venom in some of these posts makes me doubt it.
Just be kind to people and they'll do work for you. It's not that deep.
Seniors have no recourse if a junior screws them, seniors just have to pick up the slack. The associate system runs on mutual respect, not just seniors having respect.
What juniors here seem to be proposing is that they should be able to do what they want, seniors get screwed, and seniors should be overly nice to them anyways and then maybe, just maybe, juniors will try and help out a bit more.
But also this dynamic is very weird. As a senior in this market you have leverage to say "hey partner, I don't have the staffing to get this done, sorry". Also taking it personally and blaming the junior (not the partner) is weird. You're a manager. We're not buddies. (But again, I personally would take the assignment, just think the attitude is weird)
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
I’m an older junior with a prior career. In my old job, I was lucky enough to have a fucking awesome boss. One of the best managers I’ve ever seen. My coworkers and I worked lots of long hours, weekends, and literal overnights on our projects. Yet, we also had great respect for the boss, considered him a friend, and we’re happy to drop everything and help on a weekend of late night when he asked.
Why? (1) because he was a truly nice guy that we liked as a person, and gave a shit about us as people. More importantly (2) because we knew that he was constantly trying to push back on unreasonable clients where he could, cover for us, advocate for us, and prevent overnights or weekends when it wasn’t necessary. If he said “hey man sorry but I’m going to need to you to work all weekend on X” I knew that it was either absolutely necessary, or it was an unreasonable deadline that came from the client and he wasn’t able to fight them on it. I also knew that he would be loyal to me at some future time that would make my life easier.
This was at a salaried job with no bonus or anything for extra hours btw. So pulling all sorts of crazy overtime gave us absolutely no reward. Yet the team was still willing to do it because we gave a shit about the manager, and each other, and were willing to do that for each other.
I haven’t yet come across a senior that’s anywhere near as good, but I have worked under one that did similar things (like pushing back to make a deadline slightly less crazy, making sure our deadlines were early morning instead of late night, communicating why all-nighters or weekends were necessary, warning us ahead of time if they expected shit would be crazy, etc) and that senior has already earned a ton of loyalty from me after just one deal. There’s no reason you guys couldn’t do the same.
When I’m a midlevel/senior/partner, I plan to build a cohort of loyal juniors by doing it the way my old boss did.
Why? (1) because he was a truly nice guy that we liked as a person, and gave a shit about us as people. More importantly (2) because we knew that he was constantly trying to push back on unreasonable clients where he could, cover for us, advocate for us, and prevent overnights or weekends when it wasn’t necessary. If he said “hey man sorry but I’m going to need to you to work all weekend on X” I knew that it was either absolutely necessary, or it was an unreasonable deadline that came from the client and he wasn’t able to fight them on it. I also knew that he would be loyal to me at some future time that would make my life easier.
This was at a salaried job with no bonus or anything for extra hours btw. So pulling all sorts of crazy overtime gave us absolutely no reward. Yet the team was still willing to do it because we gave a shit about the manager, and each other, and were willing to do that for each other.
I haven’t yet come across a senior that’s anywhere near as good, but I have worked under one that did similar things (like pushing back to make a deadline slightly less crazy, making sure our deadlines were early morning instead of late night, communicating why all-nighters or weekends were necessary, warning us ahead of time if they expected shit would be crazy, etc) and that senior has already earned a ton of loyalty from me after just one deal. There’s no reason you guys couldn’t do the same.
When I’m a midlevel/senior/partner, I plan to build a cohort of loyal juniors by doing it the way my old boss did.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Yeah, I'm the litigation sixth year who the Anon is quoting as "BS" and like... idk man I spent some time typing up what I hoped would be helpful tips because the OP of this thread seemed to want actual advice and I sympathize with the juniors who feel lost and isolated. And most of the responses have been basically "nuh-uhhh."The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:42 pmThe theory (which I realize is a bit idealistic and gets ruined IRL by sociopaths) is that one would make sure never to throw a good junior under the bus and even go out of the way to protect them. But if you're consistently making people look bad then they'll be actively trying to get rid of you.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:23 amThe whole "your job is to make me look good" is a load of BS. That's what's good for you, not for me. Of course I know I'm the subordinate and I won't try to undercut you, ever. But if I feel like you only care about what makes you look good and are willing to throw me under the bus, I won't want to work with you. Even if I'm wrong and paranoid, a relationship goes both ways and you have to build trust too.
It's a "don't need to outrun the bear, just outrun your friends" situation. I'm not going to recommend that anyone obsequiously toil away for the benefit of senior associates as an end in itself. But it is important to be regarded one of the better juniors unless you're truly okay with getting let go on 6 months' notice (perhaps faster, during a recession). And the main metric for that contest is: making the people above you look good. IMO it's more important than raw billables on the margins.
So to be clear, if you don't give a fuck at all, then my advice isn't for you I guess. If you want to stick around for a few years and get substantive experience however, you will want more senior associates who are on your side. They will give you substantive work and talk you up to the partners. If you screw things up and make them and the partners look bad, they will not want you to work with them. And unless someone wants to work with you, you're going to get pushed out eventually and won't have much experience on your resume when you try to lateral.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
If I was working with a junior who couldn't be bothered to see an email on a weekend at any point without some advanced notice or a phone call I would probably not work with them for long. Not saying expectation is to respond instantly or even within an hour, but expecting you to look at your email here and there is fair game. But on the flip side, if you email a junior at 2 PM on a Saturday on a matter that was generally dormant for the day and are surprised or triggered to hear that they may need a few hours to be in a position to flip something than you're a psycho. I'm 5th year M&A fwiw.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Lit Sixth year again. I think it's also worth noting that even if you are a junior, you are still AN ATTORNEY and you have responsibilities to your clients. The court expects things to get done by a deadline, and it's everyone's responsibility who is staffed on that matter to get it done. Obviously a partner has overall responsibility, but if he and the senior associate got hit by a bus, it would be your job to make sure balls didn't get dropped (probably by filing a letter with the Court asking for an extension and getting the new partner staffed on the case up to speed on the deadlines). I think part of the problem I'm seeing is a lack of "ownership" over the case as a whole. And I do try to loop juniors in to make sure they feel involved in the case for that reason, but an attitude of "it's not my problem" not only makes you a bad employee, it can be borderline against professional ethics if taken to far.legalpotato wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:40 pmNot much point in discussing this further I suppose - don't know how many more times to explain how the system works and how, it doesn't just make you a bad employee to screw someone over, it also makes you a bad person.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:16 pmI can't speak for anyone else, but as a junior sure I'll do the weekend work if you give me the deadline. Mutual respect is great. I'm all for mutual respect, as long at it's actually mutual ya know? And the comments from some of the seniors here don't show that they're willing to reciprocate.legalpotato wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:00 pmBut it is a two way street. What do you expect of a senior if a partner says "hey sorry for weekend email, can you and x do this by sunday". So you email x to give him/her a piece of the overall assignment, let him/her know of time sensitivity, and he/her doesn't respond until sat evening with "ok, I will do this on Monday"? So then senior just has to stay up later saturday night doing the whole thing.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:51 amIt's insane how delusional some of these seniors are. Taking out the human side of it, look at it from a rational actor perspective. At most firms, I don't make a dime after xxxx hours (whatever my bonus is), and no one is going to fire me because of how pressed for labor everyone is and because my work product is still good. Most of us are not here to make partner. Accordingly, I have no incentive to work more than xxxx hours per year. The only time I'm going to break that pattern is for a partner/counsel/senior that I really like and respect, who I don't want to get screwed totally over the weekend/late night.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:43 amif someone decides that getting fired or pushed out due to X hours isn't the worst thing in the world, then you have no leverage if your only arguments are "this is the way biglaw is and should be, deal with it or get kicked to the curb when the market slows". once more and more people start thinking that way, maybe you should adjust your approach if you keep getting stonewalled or having issues.
the only way to reliably get someone to work harder despite them not being committed to the biglaw grind is to have them actually like you as a person and care about not making your life harder than it needs to be. seems obvious from a managerial perspective, but the venom in some of these posts makes me doubt it.
Just be kind to people and they'll do work for you. It's not that deep.
Seniors have no recourse if a junior screws them, seniors just have to pick up the slack. The associate system runs on mutual respect, not just seniors having respect.
What juniors here seem to be proposing is that they should be able to do what they want, seniors get screwed, and seniors should be overly nice to them anyways and then maybe, just maybe, juniors will try and help out a bit more.
But also this dynamic is very weird. As a senior in this market you have leverage to say "hey partner, I don't have the staffing to get this done, sorry". Also taking it personally and blaming the junior (not the partner) is weird. You're a manager. We're not buddies. (But again, I personally would take the assignment, just think the attitude is weird)
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
CM 6th year: I think this is a pretty toxic attitude. If a junior has no expectation of receiving work that weekend and you e-mail them on some dormant matter expecting them to essentially drop whatever plans they might have that weekend and handle it, you should at least do them the courtesy of calling. It benefits you to make sure that the junior is aware rather than sending some e-mail into the void and just assuming that they'll see it in time to get it done and then being upset if they don't. This seems like pretty basic management to me. If you notify someone of something outside of normal hours and expect them to handle it prior to the next business day...you should assume at least some of the onus of ensuring they have seen, received and understood the assignment.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:02 pmIf I was working with a junior who couldn't be bothered to see an email on a weekend at any point without some advanced notice or a phone call I would probably not work with them for long. Not saying expectation is to respond instantly or even within an hour, but expecting you to look at your email here and there is fair game. But on the flip side, if you email a junior at 2 PM on a Saturday on a matter that was generally dormant for the day and are surprised or triggered to hear that they may need a few hours to be in a position to flip something than you're a psycho. I'm 5th year M&A fwiw.
Also, even if they would have seen the assignment in a few hours...it's just better to make sure they're aware of it ASAP. You're acting like picking up the phone is some terrible burden when compared to potentially ruining another person's weekend.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Quoted anon. Maybe I did not communicate properly, but I was trying to say I think its psychotic to expect people to drop plans or do things immediately if they didn't have visibility into what was coming. But I stand by that it is reasonable to expect someone to see an email over the course of a Saturday. Sure, if it is something truly super urgent I will call them as well so it doesn't sit in the void. Agree with that completely.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:12 pmCM 6th year: I think this is a pretty toxic attitude. If a junior has no expectation of receiving work that weekend and you e-mail them on some dormant matter expecting them to essentially drop whatever plans they might have that weekend and handle it, you should at least do them the courtesy of calling. It benefits you to make sure that the junior is aware rather than sending some e-mail into the void and just assuming that they'll see it in time to get it done and then being upset if they don't. This seems like pretty basic management to me. If you notify someone of something outside of normal hours and expect them to handle it prior to the next business day...you should assume at least some of the onus of ensuring they have seen, received and understood the assignment.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:02 pmIf I was working with a junior who couldn't be bothered to see an email on a weekend at any point without some advanced notice or a phone call I would probably not work with them for long. Not saying expectation is to respond instantly or even within an hour, but expecting you to look at your email here and there is fair game. But on the flip side, if you email a junior at 2 PM on a Saturday on a matter that was generally dormant for the day and are surprised or triggered to hear that they may need a few hours to be in a position to flip something than you're a psycho. I'm 5th year M&A fwiw.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Reading through this thread is exactly why I (and most others) find lawyers truly miserable and insufferable people. I had a relatively decent career before starting big law, and I honestly would be fired or chastised for some of things that are touted as "advice." I made the mistake of going to law school, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it ruin my life. I'm sorry...unless it's life or death, there are truly very few things that need to be done over the weekend. This is coming from someone who is a senior AND who worked in corporate finance and accounting. People should absolutely push back on weekend work pretty much 90-99% of the time.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
What exactly do you find insufferable? Juniors who went to law school, signed up for biglaw knowing 100% what the expectations are, and get paid a ton of money, who then act like they aren't going to follow through with what they signed up for?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:08 pmReading through this thread is exactly why I (and most others) find lawyers truly miserable and insufferable people. I had a relatively decent career before starting big law, and I honestly would be fired or chastised for some of things that are touted as "advice." I made the mistake of going to law school, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it ruin my life. I'm sorry...unless it's life or death, there are truly very few things that need to be done over the weekend. This is coming from someone who is a senior AND who worked in corporate finance and accounting. People should absolutely push back on weekend work pretty much 90-99% of the time.
And yes, you are right, push back on weekend work. Ask "Can this be done Monday". But that is different from just not responding, or lying "sorry, super jammed", or the other things ppl on here are complaining about
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
This is a bad take my friend. The idea that the whole industry is going to roll over just because some anxiety-ridden newly minted lawyers (or you with your prior work experience) find weekend work tedious and unnecessary is completely asinine. Everybody who goes into biglaw knows exactly what they signed up for, so don't pretend like this is a surprise.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:08 pmReading through this thread is exactly why I (and most others) find lawyers truly miserable and insufferable people. I had a relatively decent career before starting big law, and I honestly would be fired or chastised for some of things that are touted as "advice." I made the mistake of going to law school, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it ruin my life. I'm sorry...unless it's life or death, there are truly very few things that need to be done over the weekend. This is coming from someone who is a senior AND who worked in corporate finance and accounting. People should absolutely push back on weekend work pretty much 90-99% of the time.
Not sure if you noticed, but we are in the client service industry. Those clients keep the lights on by paying our astronomically high rates because we are online all the time. That's what they pay for. Mr. CEO wants to close the deal Monday? Step to it. Mr. GC wants a copy of the brief tomorrow? Say goodbye to your sleep. If they want Joe 9-5 who will answer your emails in turn on Monday morning, if he gets to it, our clients wouldn't engage us. But if we want more and more money (see the Milbank thread for associates, and see generally literally every partner), then we have to play the game. And if biglaw firm A has a culture change that cuts out weekend work, you bet your ass clients will start looking somewhere else.
People ITT are right to some degree that you don't strictly have to work on weekends. That's 100% true on unnecessary internal deadlines or where some senior has done a poor job managing. And I hate weekend work as much as the next associate. I happen to be in a group that tries very hard to keep weekend work to a minimum (and to stay out of the way of vacations) - that is HUGE for me.
But clients are going to continue asking for things that require weekend work from time to time (even if it's not life or death), and we're going to continue to be asked to deliver on that to keep our clients happy. That's the expectation, and you calling it unreasonable doesn't make it so. So don't be shocked when you piss someone off by telling them you won't work weekends. If you don't do it, someone else who wants to keep the system going will have to instead, and they'll hate your for it.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
lol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Great analogy. Being a lawyer on $200k+ salary is exactly the same in terms of professional responsibility, negotiating posture vis-à-vis employers, etc. as a McDonald's cashier making $12/hr.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:35 pmlol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
An analogy doesn't have to be precise to make a point. That's why it's an analogy. But to your comments:The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:45 pmGreat analogy. Being a lawyer on $200k+ salary is exactly the same in terms of professional responsibility, negotiating posture vis-à-vis employers, etc. as a McDonald's cashier making $12/hr.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:35 pmlol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
Salary: if the argument is "you're being paid to suck it up" I accept that. But don't pretend its about being a good person or complain about how much work you seniors have to do. You get paid too, last I checked a bit more than us.
professional responsibility: lies with the partners who took on the work. If I communicate my unavailability, no it is not my professional responsibility
negotiating posture: this actually doesn't really help your case--the current negotiating posture is "you need bodies"
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
I don't understand why people on this forum are so cavalier about ethics. I see this same pattern repeatedly where someone says something grounded in the actual rules of professional responsibility and someone else just shrugs it off like a joke. Is it just so cool to be cavalier with the rules? Maybe THAT is what makes lawyers so insufferable, to use someone else's phrase.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:35 pmlol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
Or maybe I'm just missing something - can you please break it down for my why as a junior associate you're not also responsible for getting things done?
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Lit 6th year again. Please try that analogy with a judge when you're on an expedited case or the Court orders something produced or filed within a week but you can't get it done without working on the weekend. You want to never think about work after clocking out? Don't be an attorney.The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:45 pmGreat analogy. Being a lawyer on $200k+ salary is exactly the same in terms of professional responsibility, negotiating posture vis-à-vis employers, etc. as a McDonald's cashier making $12/hr.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:35 pmlol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
I mean, yeah I hate weekend work too--I try to get stuff done during the week so I don't have to do it on the weekend, and basically never spring surprise weekend work on a junior associate if I can help it. But sometimes the Court decides something is due earlier than you would like, and it's the job of the attorneys on the case (which includes you) to get it done by then. (And in the transactional world, it's the client or another party that creates the deadline)
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
This is literally 100% wrong and you know it. What on earth makes you think that only the partners owe anything to the client? Just because you're on a salary and have a boss doesn't mean your state bar DGAF.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:54 pm
professional responsibility: lies with the partners who took on the work. If I communicate my unavailability, no it is not my professional responsibility
PS lit 6th year - I think we're fighting the same fight. Kudos.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
6th year lit associate again. The above is wrong. If you are on a matter, yes, it absolutely is your professional responsibility to make sure that the Court's deadlines are met. Obviously the Court understands that the partner or a senior associate is the one overseeing the matter, but by virtue of being an attorney, you too are responsible for the case.
professional responsibility: lies with the partners who took on the work. If I communicate my unavailability, no it is not my professional responsibility
But yeah, again, juniors, if someone senior to you gives you advice, consider that they may in fact be correct and you may be wrong.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
haha, yeah cross-posted. Yeah, like I said, I really do feel for the associates who started during COVID and feel isolated and don't have other associates they feel can mentor them. But if an associate has the attitude of "IDGAF, it's not my problem because I'm just a junior" I really really do not want them working at my firm.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:58 pmThis is literally 100% wrong and you know it. What on earth makes you think that only the partners owe anything to the client? Just because you're on a salary and have a boss doesn't mean your state bar DGAF.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:54 pm
professional responsibility: lies with the partners who took on the work. If I communicate my unavailability, no it is not my professional responsibility
PS lit 6th year - I think we're fighting the same fight. Kudos.
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Re: Advice for class of ‘19, ‘20, ‘21 re lack of training
Realistically you absolutely can just turn down work from seniors on weekends if you want. But understand that there are consequences for that. Right now things are so hot that you probably won't be shown the door immediately, but know that people are not going to want to work with you. You may not get your bonus (if that matters to you), and you're going to be one of the first ones on the chopping block if things slow down, which is also likely to be a time when it's not so easy to find a job. If you're okay with that then by all means, but even in this economy I'm not sure a junior who just outright refuses to work on weekends/late nights would last more than a year or two. You're paid a lot of money to be available all the time, and if midlevels and seniors are constantly finding that they have to pick up the slack for you then you're really not adding value and they'll try to avoid having you staffed on deals with them.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:54 pmAn analogy doesn't have to be precise to make a point. That's why it's an analogy. But to your comments:The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:45 pmGreat analogy. Being a lawyer on $200k+ salary is exactly the same in terms of professional responsibility, negotiating posture vis-à-vis employers, etc. as a McDonald's cashier making $12/hr.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:35 pmlol at the "proFesSiOnAl eThiCs" comments and calling someone a bad person for not jumping high enough
No. You can say that this is what's needed to survive in biglaw (though it's evidently not, at least right now in the short term). You can give advice on how to get along with seniors. But no, I am not a responsible to you personally. I'm not doing this for fun or to do you a favor. It's a job, and you're the supervisor. This is an abusive mentality, like a McDonalds supervisor who tries to guilt staff to do overtime.
Salary: if the argument is "you're being paid to suck it up" I accept that. But don't pretend its about being a good person or complain about how much work you seniors have to do. You get paid too, last I checked a bit more than us.
professional responsibility: lies with the partners who took on the work. If I communicate my unavailability, no it is not my professional responsibility
negotiating posture: this actually doesn't really help your case--the current negotiating posture is "you need bodies"
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