In terms of prestige, does the firm or the office location matter more? Forum

[Anonymous User]

The people taking the bait are likewise smart to hide their fake identities TLS never changes

I should stop but this thread is driving me crazy. If you want to live in a particular city, great, but I don't understand how in any world other than fucked-up-law student a job that pays less money for longer hours doing the same work is considered the better job.

[Anonymous User]

may instead care more about working with more sophisticated clients (slightly larger, lol)

Self esteem literally coming from slightly larger numbers on disclosure schedules.

Versus that which *literally* comes from slightly more take-home pay as a junior, because opportunities lateraling or going in house have nothing to do with the sorts of work you’ve done and the clients you’ve developed. Geez. Nice one.

[Anonymous User]

The people taking the bait are likewise smart to hide their fake identities TLS never changes

I should stop but this thread is driving me crazy. If you want to live in a particular city, great, but I don't understand how in any world other than fucked-up-law student a job that pays less money for longer hours doing the same work is considered the better job.

Because as I'm sure you know the value of a job, especially a white-collar one, cannot be reduced to hours worked and money earned. If one person becomes partner in secondary or tertiary market X at Skadden and another person becomes partner at Skadden New York (FOR EXAMPLE, before you jump on New York specifically), do you honestly believe that their exit ops, opportunities to go in house, professional network and representative matters will be even remotely comparable? Replace Skadden with Sidley or Gibson or whoever and the difference is even more stark. Sure you may have worked fewer hours for the same or more money *initially,* but if you're neurotic and/or hyperambitious as many of these people are, sitting in a rocking chair in the suburbs of the midwest or south simply is not the goal.

[beepboopbeep]

Lotta yall suck at not taking bait.

[Anonymous User]

If one person becomes partner in secondary or tertiary market X at Skadden and another person becomes partner at Skadden New York (FOR EXAMPLE, before you jump on New York specifically), do you honestly believe that their exit ops, opportunities to go in house, professional network and representative matters will be even remotely comparable?

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Mod Note: User Supercafe outed for anon abuse. Further abuse will result in a permanent ban.

[Anonymous User]

If one person becomes partner in secondary or tertiary market X at Skadden and another person becomes partner at Skadden New York (FOR EXAMPLE, before you jump on New York specifically), do you honestly believe that their exit ops, opportunities to go in house, professional network and representative matters will be even remotely comparable?

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Yikes. Touched a nerve?

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Yikes. Touched a nerve?

I've just taken a personal finance class. We are talking about an extra 20k/year.

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Yikes. Touched a nerve?

I've just taken a personal finance class. We are talking about an extra 20k/year.

If 20k makes a material difference to your lifestyle, then I'm afraid you and I cannot relate. Let's, then, just agree to disagree.

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Yikes. Touched a nerve?

I've just taken a personal finance class. We are talking about an extra 20k/year.

If 20k makes a material difference to your lifestyle, then I'm afraid you and I cannot relate. Let's, then, just agree to disagree.

That 20k+ extra a year not adjusting for cost of living is going to be worth a couple million by retirement if you stay in big law for more than 3/4 years. If that doesn't matter to you congrats on having a rich daddy.

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Also, people who think a 10-15% difference pay is trivial are fucking idiots.

Yikes. Touched a nerve?

I've just taken a personal finance class. We are talking about an extra 20k/year.

If 20k makes a material difference to your lifestyle, then I'm afraid you and I cannot relate. Let's, then, just agree to disagree.

That 20k+ extra a year not adjusting for cost of living is going to be worth a couple million by retirement if you stay in big law for more than 3/4 years. If that doesn't matter to you congrats on having a rich daddy.

Please stop entertaining this conversation. It's very unproductive.

[Anonymous User]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

I mean, there are definitely people who could get hired in NYC and not Texas, because class size and ties.

But lol just lol at this whole debate.

Oh I don't disagree, and I don't think I said anything to that effect. Most law students aren't weighing one or the other. Hell, it's possible that nearly every law student in the country would strike out if they tried to land a firm job in Des Moines, IA. So what? My point is that Anywhere, TX and New York are going to be night-and-day different (even in one of Texas's major metro areas).

One is a growing legal market with a lower cost of living, with more firms moving in. Comparatively, though, it has fewer firms and fewer biglaw attorneys practicing there.

The other is the largest city in the country (and is arguably the "capital of the world" insofar as such a thing exists), with the largest legal and financial market in the country, and headquarters to many of the country's elite law firms.

I'll let everyone guess as to which is which...

I’m pretty sure parts of Des Moines biglaw are unironically very competitive, Belin McCormick is as selective as the top Chicago/NY firms. You get a nice house, a 9-6, a bunch of colleagues from HLS, a fast track to a federal/SSC judgeship, and more money in real terms than NYC, it’s probably one of the best gigs in the country for those wired up to want reasonable lives. Also, like Utahans and New Yorkers, IME Iowans often think it’s God’s own country and have strong desires to return.

Also, what? Is this comment from 1990? Tons of people consider both TX and NY firms

Yup, I actually had Belin in mind when I mentioned Des Moines. Look, I don't think we disagree (if you think I'm saying something different than you). I think Texas gigs appeal to different people.

The original post suggested that associates living in New York City should feel silly making less post-taxes/cost of living because they live in New York, as compared to their colleagues in Texas. I'm saying that in and of itself is a silly take, because people want to live in New York because it's New York. I think the pay differential would have to be more than ~10% to make Texas attractive to people who want to live and practice in New York while they are young (*COVID notwithstanding).

[Anonymous User]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

I mean, there are definitely people who could get hired in NYC and not Texas, because class size and ties.

But lol just lol at this whole debate.

Oh I don't disagree, and I don't think I said anything to that effect. Most law students aren't weighing one or the other. Hell, it's possible that nearly every law student in the country would strike out if they tried to land a firm job in Des Moines, IA. So what? My point is that Anywhere, TX and New York are going to be night-and-day different (even in one of Texas's major metro areas).

One is a growing legal market with a lower cost of living, with more firms moving in. Comparatively, though, it has fewer firms and fewer biglaw attorneys practicing there.

The other is the largest city in the country (and is arguably the "capital of the world" insofar as such a thing exists), with the largest legal and financial market in the country, and headquarters to many of the country's elite law firms.

I'll let everyone guess as to which is which...

I’m pretty sure parts of Des Moines biglaw are unironically very competitive, Belin McCormick is as selective as the top Chicago/NY firms. You get a nice house, a 9-6, a bunch of colleagues from HLS, a fast track to a federal/SSC judgeship, and more money in real terms than NYC, it’s probably one of the best gigs in the country for those wired up to want reasonable lives. Also, like Utahans and New Yorkers, IME Iowans often think it’s God’s own country and have strong desires to return.

Also, what? Is this comment from 1990? Tons of people consider both TX and NY firms

Yup, I actually had Belin in mind when I mentioned Des Moines. Look, I don't think we disagree (if you think I'm saying something different than you). I think Texas gigs appeal to different people.

The original post suggested that associates living in New York City should feel silly making less post-taxes/cost of living because they live in New York, as compared to their colleagues in Texas. I'm saying that in and of itself is a silly take, because people want to live in New York because it's New York. I think the pay differential would have to be more than ~10% to make Texas attractive to people who want to live and practice in New York while they are young (*COVID notwithstanding).

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

[mardash]

This thread is getting spicy / controversial because there are lots of people who took jobs with big firms in small offices who desperately want to believe that they're deserving of the same esteem as their colleagues at HQ, whether that be in New York or elsewhere.

But thank the gods they have a few extra bucks in their checking accounts, right?

brave anon

I mean I know I'd be embarrassed to post that kind of hot take under my actual internet pseudonym.

It’s a well-fed troll. I don’t appreciate him derailing this thread about the prestige of Chicago cuisine.

[Anonymous User]

I went to undergrad in a small town where almost no one who graduated from the college remained in town after school. I went to law school in a big city. I've learned that there's a certain type of person who enjoys a slower pace of life, quiet neighborhoods, fences around swings and that sort of thing. There are also people who find that sort of thing boring and may begin to drift toward that lifestyle only closer to retirement.

Anon you were responding to. You described my situation as well. Is it your position that every city other than NYC is a meaningfully slower pace of life with neighborhoods and fences? I am struggling to envision the dichotomy when people are leaving NYC for places like DC, SF, etc. It kind of reads like you are rustic parvenu whose prior life experience is "dinky town in the middle of nowhere" rather than "medium-sized city," "foreign metropolis," or "cultured and educated suburbs." I rarely find that people who have lived abroad or in many different areas are very obsessed--or impressed by--NYC.

If the very idea that some people choose altogether not have have families, or even get married, and may instead care more about working with more sophisticated clients (slightly larger, lol) in an office which draws much more heavily from vastly more competitive and diverse schools and backgrounds rather than staffing 1/3 of the office from the local USNWR 50-70 is "so alien" to you, you've revealed yourself as a public school non-target graduate and I'm glad there are secondary and tertiary markets where you fit right in.

What firms/offices would those be? What NYC points of comparison do you have in mind? I know a lot of people who turned down V5 NYC in favor of great firms in other cities. LOL @ MTO, Susman, W&C, Cov/WH DC having to "slum" it with the locals. Are you serious?

[Anonymous User]

I went to undergrad in a small town where almost no one who graduated from the college remained in town after school. I went to law school in a big city. I've learned that there's a certain type of person who enjoys a slower pace of life, quiet neighborhoods, fences around swings and that sort of thing. There are also people who find that sort of thing boring and may begin to drift toward that lifestyle only closer to retirement.

Anon you were responding to. You described my situation as well. Is it your position that every city other than NYC is a meaningfully slower pace of life with neighborhoods and fences? I am struggling to envision the dichotomy when people are leaving NYC for places like DC, SF, etc. It kind of reads like you are rustic parvenu whose prior life experience is "dinky town in the middle of nowhere" rather than "medium-sized city," "foreign metropolis," or "cultured and educated suburbs." I rarely find that people who have lived abroad or in many different areas are very obsessed--or impressed by--NYC.

If the very idea that some people choose altogether not have have families, or even get married, and may instead care more about working with more sophisticated clients (slightly larger, lol) in an office which draws much more heavily from vastly more competitive and diverse schools and backgrounds rather than staffing 1/3 of the office from the local USNWR 50-70 is "so alien" to you, you've revealed yourself as a public school non-target graduate and I'm glad there are secondary and tertiary markets where you fit right in.

What firms/offices would those be? What NYC points of comparison do you have in mind? I know a lot of people who turned down V5 NYC in favor of great firms in other cities. LOL @ MTO, Susman, W&C, Cov/WH DC having to "slum" it with the locals. Are you serious?

Holy shit. The relevant distinction is not NYC vs the world, you adolescent; it’s primary market (including DC) versus secondary and tertiary. Go back to Reddit.

[Anonymous User]

Holy shit. The relevant distinction is not NYC vs the world, you adolescent; it’s primary market (including DC) versus secondary and tertiary. Go back to Reddit.

The relevant post responded to a chain that slammed Houston. Is Houston now a "primary market"? How far down the NY Vault rankings do you think the reasoning falls apart, here, regarding sophistication of clients and credentials of attorneys?

[nixy]

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

I get that you're a troll and I'm feeding you, here's your cookie, now how about you stop using public school as an insult like a fucking asshole.

[Anonymous User]

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

I get that you're a troll and I'm feeding you, here's your cookie, now how about you stop using public school as an insult like a fucking asshole.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, and certainly not more so than the post it was responding to by someone who just finished taking some Kahn Academy personal finance class and feels comfortable calling anyone who doesn’t recognize the significance of a 10% pay rise a “fucking idiot.”

[nixy]

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

I get that you're a troll and I'm feeding you, here's your cookie, now how about you stop using public school as an insult like a fucking asshole.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, and certainly not more so than the post it was responding to by someone who just finished taking some Kahn Academy personal finance class and feels comfortable calling anyone who doesn’t recognize the significance of a 10% pay rise a “fucking idiot.”

Totally non responsive to the actual point, good trolling.

[Anonymous User]

And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

If you don't think 10%-15% is a lot you are a fucking idiot. That's a significate raise to anyone - it's probably going to increase your savings by ~30% a year, compound, and allow you to build wealth/retire faster.

8 years in big law in an area with no/low local income tax will let you save an extra ~250k with no extra work. If you set it and forget it, in 30 years with historical returns that will be an inflation adjusted 2 MILLION by the time you retire. If you want you can spend the rest of your money partying.

If your point is that you're so saddled with debt it's all monopoly money to you then you're a double fucking idiot. Don't make the same mistake twice and double down on it.

If you want to live in NY awesome, but it's ridiculous to act like anyone is impressed by the name of your firm (because that's literally all you have), and then act like income and R&R don't matter.

[Anonymous User]

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

I get that you're a troll and I'm feeding you, here's your cookie, now how about you stop using public school as an insult like a fucking asshole.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, and certainly not more so than the post it was responding to by someone who just finished taking some Kahn Academy personal finance class and feels comfortable calling anyone who doesn’t recognize the significance of a 10% pay rise a “fucking idiot.”

Totally non responsive to the actual point, good trolling.

Lol what point? All you did was complain about the pejorative reference to public schools. Who’s trolling now?

[Anonymous User]

And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

If you don't think 10%-15% is a lot you are a fucking idiot. That's a significate raise to anyone - it's probably going to increase your savings by ~30% a year, compound, and allow you to build wealth/retire faster.

8 years in big law in an area with no/low local income tax will let you save an extra ~250k with no extra work. If you set it and forget it, in 30 years with historical returns that will be an inflation adjusted 2 MILLION by the time you retire. If you want you can spend the rest of your money partying.

If your point is that you're so saddled with debt it's all monopoly money to you then you're a double fucking idiot. Don't make the same mistake twice and double down on it.

If you want to live in NY awesome, but it's ridiculous to act like anyone is impressed by the name of your firm (because that's literally all you have), and then act like income and R&R don't matter.

This may be the most tortured rationalization I’ve ever seen.

[Anonymous User]

. . . Also, with cross-staffing (especially post-Covid), I know many people who live in, say, a Texas office but work 100% on deals out of the NYC office. So they’re doing literally the same job as an NYC associate, but with 11% higher pay, no face time requirement, and living either in a luxury apartment next to the office or a huge house 20 mins away. If I were an NYC associate on the same deal team, I’d feel pretty damn silly in comparison.

You had me until the end.

Pretty sure that most people living and working in New York City are there because they want to, gasp, be in New York City — and not because they couldn't land the coveted Texas gig.

I mean, there are definitely people who could get hired in NYC and not Texas, because class size and ties.

But lol just lol at this whole debate.

Oh I don't disagree, and I don't think I said anything to that effect. Most law students aren't weighing one or the other. Hell, it's possible that nearly every law student in the country would strike out if they tried to land a firm job in Des Moines, IA. So what? My point is that Anywhere, TX and New York are going to be night-and-day different (even in one of Texas's major metro areas).

One is a growing legal market with a lower cost of living, with more firms moving in. Comparatively, though, it has fewer firms and fewer biglaw attorneys practicing there.

The other is the largest city in the country (and is arguably the "capital of the world" insofar as such a thing exists), with the largest legal and financial market in the country, and headquarters to many of the country's elite law firms.

I'll let everyone guess as to which is which...

I’m pretty sure parts of Des Moines biglaw are unironically very competitive, Belin McCormick is as selective as the top Chicago/NY firms. You get a nice house, a 9-6, a bunch of colleagues from HLS, a fast track to a federal/SSC judgeship, and more money in real terms than NYC, it’s probably one of the best gigs in the country for those wired up to want reasonable lives. Also, like Utahans and New Yorkers, IME Iowans often think it’s God’s own country and have strong desires to return.

Also, what? Is this comment from 1990? Tons of people consider both TX and NY firms

Yup, I actually had Belin in mind when I mentioned Des Moines. Look, I don't think we disagree (if you think I'm saying something different than you). I think Texas gigs appeal to different people.

The original post suggested that associates living in New York City should feel silly making less post-taxes/cost of living because they live in New York, as compared to their colleagues in Texas. I'm saying that in and of itself is a silly take, because people want to live in New York because it's New York. I think the pay differential would have to be more than ~10% to make Texas attractive to people who want to live and practice in New York while they are young (*COVID notwithstanding).

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UT Austin, UCLA are all public schools. I wonder what your colleagues at your firm from here would think of what you’re posting. Where did you go? It damn well better be T6 at minimum

[Anonymous User]

The original post suggested that associates living in New York City should feel silly making less post-taxes/cost of living because they live in New York, as compared to their colleagues in Texas. I'm saying that in and of itself is a silly take, because people want to live in New York because it's New York. I think the pay differential would have to be more than ~10% to make Texas attractive to people who want to live and practice in New York while they are young (*COVID notwithstanding).

This. And to add my own take, people who disagree with this tend to couch their defense of their secondary market (or their attack on NYC in particular) in terms of take-home pay and work-life balance. Not everyone needs a few extra thousand dollars a year to feel secure, and not everyone requires the same level of work-life balance. And those who can't understand that tend not realize that everyone who graduates law school is saddled with debt, and then descend into language like "If you don't think 10-15% is a lot you're a fucking idiot," like the tertiary market public school kid a few posts above.

I am struggling to make sense of these takes. Also, this thread is a shitshow. Regardless, there seem to be a few issues floating around:

1) The quality/sophistication of work. These seems like something more readily addressed by particular firm/practice group, since something as reductive as "NY involves more sophisticated work" is (practically) self-evidently false as a blanket statement that applies to all firms. And since it is, then, as noted, the discussion must get more specific.

2) One need not have debt to view millions of dollars as significant. I am trying to understand the perspective of posters (coincidentally anon, of course) who are poopooing a 10-15% pay bump based on taxes/CoL when that compounds over 20-30 years to a huge amount. It is fine to say that people who want to work in NY should work in NY, but anything beyond that subjective preference should probably be justified by something more specific and empirical than preftige when few in non-NY markets give a shit about NY at all, at which point the question reduces to subjective preference for what NY offers on a non-work level.

3) Selectivity/schools. It seems gross to disparage public schools. More broadly, why is anyone viewing NYC as particularly selective when you consider all of the firms that are HQed there? It seems like the relevant determination is still firm/practice group specific. Also, perhaps I am just a naive elite, but it is hard for me to take the claim that BL attorneys from non-T6s are somehow less competent, intelligent, or interesting than their T6 colleagues as anything more than ignorant, elitist tripe. If someone wants to challenge that, feel free to do so non-anonymously (since otherwise you are just an asshole).

[aegor]

Accidental anon; immediately preceding post is mine.