Stub Year Confusion Forum

[Anonymous User]

You know, reactions to your comments in one word are acceptable. Not every comment anyone ever makes has to be this super long-reasoned, eloquent response that meets your standards. This isn't court.

And assuming you're "miles ahead of him"? Both kind of a wild thing to do, given you don't know him/her, and because you were just ridiculing him/her for putting YOU down. Oh, and also wild because anyone who makes assumptions like that is arrogant in the worst way -- unfoundedly arrogant.

You've done well in life up to this point academically and professionally. But at the end of the day, how you treat people and how people remember you is what matters. You think people don't think of you as a dick outside of this forum...you must either be incredibly good at hiding this arrogance, condescension, and crazy need to be right, or you might wsnt to consider that maybe people (especially people who aren't super close to you, like your colleagues, etc.) don't feel about you the way you think they do.

I'll take "right" about being able to hide my dickness in person for 100, nerds.

There's a reason I got offers at a T14 and V5, as opposed to getting booted for being a dick, while you and the rest sit here whining. Sorry you aren't as accomplished.

Anon you quoted...you really cherry-picked my post. FWIW –– I am HYS and V5, and my career has been very successful thus far. You do make a whole lot of assumptions for someone who claims to be oh so smart. It makes you look bad when you're wrong.

Listen, I wish you the best. I hope you consider why you choose to be a dick to people online. Where is that coming from? And how might it end up spilling over into your real life? Genuine advice – engage in some introspection, and maybe work on being less of a dick everywhere, including behind that prideful keyboard. It will be better for you not only personally/mentally, but for your long-term career in this very people-oriented field.

[avenuem]

This post by a first-year associate is disputed.

Amazing. My mere presence brings the same cast of posters to the thread.

Effective immediately, I'm going to stop posting so that you can all live your lives. I'm sorry you'll miss me.

"The worst part of success is trying to find someone who is happy for you."
"Anger, resentment and jealousy doesn't change the heart of others-- it only changes yours."
"Isn't it kind of silly to think that tearing someone else down builds you up?"
"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents."
"You can't be yourself within jealousy."
"There will always be haters. And the more you grow the more they hate; the more they hate the more you grow."
"Yet he was jealous, though he did not show it, For jealousy dislikes the world to know it."
"Humans are suspicious and jealous creatures. When they see something perfect, they want to find a flaw."

/thread

[tlsguy2020]

So this was all flame right?

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is a popularity contest and it becomes more of one as you become more senior (as an associate; it doesn't just magically start mattering when you are a partner). Because--life insight incoming--life is a popularity contest. It doesn't matter how sharply you find commas in a document, you have to be someone that people enjoy spending time with, can have a beer with, want to build a professional relationship with in order to thrive both within the firm and with clients. You can get away with being an autistic perfect comma robot as a junior, but as you become more senior, and especially if you have any aim to become a partner, you need to be much more than that. No one cares if you can find the perfect precedent if you're unpleasant to be around or interact with. Emotional intelligence, social networking, and general affability matter in biglaw a lot if you want to last long term.

So a bunch of reactions:

1) hanging out on forums online isn’t a symptom of ASD. There may be reasons why it especially works for people with ASD but that doesn’t mean everyone who participates in online forums is ASD. Nor am I LARPing as socially cool because I’m not making any claims that I am socially cool (I’m not).

2) Getting along with people (not necessarily being the most popular, but getting along) almost always matters, not just in biglaw, and no matter how good your work product is, but

3) being ASD and being an arrogant dick aren’t the same thing. I’m not trying to minimize the social effects of ASD (nor am I an expert on it), and realize that neurotypical people may not get you, but not getting all the standard social cues isn’t the same as thinking you’re better than other people. However,

4) keep in mind that you may well be competing with people who can do excellent work and excel at the social side. I mean we’re talking about lawyers so maybe not (jk), but it’s not an either/or proposition. Giving work to the more likable person may not require accepting lower quality work, especially depending on what kind of work is being asked for. Moreover, sometimes what’s excellent work is subjective.

5) In the end, you do you. All you can do is your best. Producing high quality work - especially in contexts where skill matters more - is absolutely important and makes you valued. Whether and how much the social side matters will depend on the culture of your specific firm, who you work for, and how strongly you differ socially. Biglaw is also an industry with a lot of turnover, it’s baked in to the model, so probably everyone should always have their resume ready. Lots of people get laid off or eased out regardless of social ability.

Nixy sort of covered all of these, but:

-First of all, I'm just blown away at the thought that spending *any* time talking about law firm workplace conduct online, much less megaposting on an actual law forum like me, Elston, and nixy, could be described as "LARPing as socially cool."

-Second, although perception of others is an important part of broader social skills, it really doesn't take any amount of either to recognize that The Talented Mr. Stubley is being a dick, especially seeing as how he explicitly admitted it.

-Third, being well-liked isn't only relevant when you're up for partner. People who are better-liked get more opportunities to pick what kind of work they do and are more forgiven for mistakes/mediocre performance. These things aren't as relevant when you're a first-year, but (A) they'll become relevant long before you're up for partner and (B) first/early impressions do matter and do last.

-Fourth, as said below, everything in life is a popularity contest to varying extents, and people are always going to get an edge for being more charismatic, more attractive, more Insert-Favored-Trait-Here. Anyone who hasn't realized that by their twenties is behind the curve, and if for whatever reason it hasn't become obvious to you by observation, it would behoove you to spend some team reading about it. It's just a fact of life, and by itself, it's not a good reason to leave Biglaw, which is a career path that is significantly *less* reliant on social skills and niceties than average, and significantly more tolerant of neurodivergents and just general oddballs, so long as they hit their hours and italicize all the right commas.

General rule for life: Play to your strengths. Biglaw is full of partners who would crap their pants at a summer lunch who were promoted (and developed books of business) simply because they're really, really good lawyers. If you're better at checking cross-references than chatting at the Keurig, then just focus on doing that and not making any unforced errors (like, say, telling everyone else you're better than them). Being quiet, humble and eager to learn are not the only cornerstones of success, but they're pretty good ways to last as long as in this job as you're likely to want it. That said, social skills are just that--skills. Some people have more natural talent but anyone who wants to improve can do so with practice and study, ASD or not. Lots of guides out there for people who feel like they have trouble navigating the workplace.

Competence and likeability are not detached. As you get more senior, soft skills like the ability to talk with clients, manage associates, and deal with opposing counsel become more important. A person that partners can put in front of a client is nearly always going to get the better opportunities. That said, these soft skills can be learned, and there is certainly a place in biglaw for odd people who, for example, write meticulous briefs. My point here is that part of being competent is being able to go in front of a client, and at the very junior level, likeability may be a reasonable proxy for that.

Why yes, yes they are. I'm glad that in just one thread I made a reputation as the Hated Prince of TLS, Slayer of T2s, Father of T3s, First in Class, Last to Cry, King of the North, the One True Poster and Partner.

To the ASD poster, I like you. You get it. Monocromatic's response to you is mostly right. Being liked is important and the people here would be surprised to learn that I get that point and act on it in real. You can do that and still be so excellent that people are jealous online. I would tell you about the Writ of Mandamus that I'm drafting, but then we would have two more pages of tears.

ASD poster from above again. This is all really helpful thank you. I saved it in my ASD thread for posterity.

One thing I wish TLS had was some way to anonymously verify your experience and position. For example, under your name write "verified V25 7th year associate, partner," or whatever.

When I read posts o here, I wonder. Am I getting this advice from someone really knowledgeable, or am I getting advice from another undiagnosed ASD-poster who is LARPing an alternate identity online. If it's the latter that's fine. I used to do it all the time. I would get relegated as the unwanted "other" in society, and go online and pretend to be more than I am. If that's what you're doing that's fine it's wonderful emotional therapy for us "others." But I wish I knew that to know whose advice to listen to and whose to humor. As a former megaposter on other forums I know us ASD folks can be masters at fooling people into thinking we know more than we do. I don't do it anymore. Once I was officially diagnosed, I understood what I was doing and stopped.

But any way that's one reason I prefer advice from my Facebook law group over this one. The people who post there have to post their name and usually their picture. Not surprisingly, much less bragging over there relative to forums like this one, autoadmit or reddit.

A "verified poster" feature with a bio would make this place so much more helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Amazing. My mere presence brings the same cast of posters to the thread.

Effective immediately, I'm going to stop posting so that you can all live your lives. I'm sorry you'll miss me.

"The worst part of success is trying to find someone who is happy for you."
"Anger, resentment and jealousy doesn't change the heart of others-- it only changes yours."
"Isn't it kind of silly to think that tearing someone else down builds you up?"
"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents."
"You can't be yourself within jealousy."
"There will always be haters. And the more you grow the more they hate; the more they hate the more you grow."
"Yet he was jealous, though he did not show it, For jealousy dislikes the world to know it."
"Humans are suspicious and jealous creatures. When they see something perfect, they want to find a flaw."

/thread

AvenueM. I appreciate your thread and posts but these are quotes that someone like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos or Chris Hemsworth might say. I didn't get any offers from a V5. I'm going to a V30 in a month but even the chairman of my firm isn't successful enough for quotes like this.

I wrote posts like this on other forums as I LARPed. It's wonderful to escape what you are even if for a moment. But imagine someone copying this post, juxtaposing it with your face and name and circulating that. As painful as reality is sometimes for us "others," that would be a million times worse.

[Anonymous User]

Amazing. My mere presence brings the same cast of posters to the thread.

Effective immediately, I'm going to stop posting so that you can all live your lives. I'm sorry you'll miss me.

"The worst part of success is trying to find someone who is happy for you."
"Anger, resentment and jealousy doesn't change the heart of others-- it only changes yours."
"Isn't it kind of silly to think that tearing someone else down builds you up?"
"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents."
"You can't be yourself within jealousy."
"There will always be haters. And the more you grow the more they hate; the more they hate the more you grow."
"Yet he was jealous, though he did not show it, For jealousy dislikes the world to know it."
"Humans are suspicious and jealous creatures. When they see something perfect, they want to find a flaw."

/thread

Well, I guess I'll bite. No one is saying first-years/stubs can't do good work. But, that "good" work is judged in the context of being a first-year/stub. You may very well be a good stub meaning that your work compared to other stubs is good. However, there are no stubs that do 3rd and 4th year quality and level of work.

When I look at the work I did 2 years ago, at the time I thought it was quality work and it probably was for my level at that time. However, I'm embarrassed by that work now. Hopefully in two more years, I'll be embarrassed by the quality of work I'm putting out now. That's the way it should work, you gain institutional knowledge and experience as you go along and you develop better skills and habits. This isn't the NBA - no one comes in with god-given gifts that make them a star player from day 1. It's all skills you need to learn and develop.

Another thing on those skills - you might be pre-disposed to having good attention to detail or whatever. But, those skills don't necessarily make you a good associate. I've come to learn that it's about having the right blend of skills and you may be weak in certain areas that other people excel in. These weaknesses may not have surfaced yet and may surface at a more senior level. For example, you may be good at diligence/attention to detail, but maybe you absolutely suck at managing junior associates which is vital to being a good mid-level. You won't know whether you're a good manager or not until a couple of years.

Finally, since everyone else has already talked about this - attitude and personality. I'm also at a "V5" and was "T14" - none of that shit matters. Partners and clients care about a few things: 1. are you competent? 2. are you responsive? 3. do you have a positive attitude? That's literally it. You seem to think you have all 3 covered. However, your responses have put a lot of people off who are at the very least your indirect peers, if not your direct peers. As someone who also has narcistic tendencies and thinks they're hot shit, trust me on this, try to be a bit more humble. This job will humble you eventually and it's much easier to handle when your entire identity and self-worth isn't tied to your job performance or "prestige".

[daedalus2309]

Wisdom

As an associate at a V2 (I won't say which so I can preserve my anonymity ), I'm very busy out here billing, chilling, crushing deals, and just generally grinding.

So I'll just I have to say that this is some king shit. Absolutely unparalleled. This website fucking rules.