What happens when you self-medicate Forum

[bonusnewsnow]

Who here has suggested they want “a life-long associate position?” to be an associate for the rest of their lives? Biglaw doesn’t generally even let you do that, right? Seems like a huge strawman.

Isn't there something call a service partner or of counsel or something like that?

[LawrenceGazebo]

Who here has suggested they want “a life-long associate position?” to be an associate for the rest of their lives? Biglaw doesn’t generally even let you do that, right? Seems like a huge strawman.

Isn't there something call a service partner or of counsel or something like that?

Why do you keep saying you're leaving yet you keep posting?

[bonusnewsnow]

Who here has suggested they want “a life-long associate position?” to be an associate for the rest of their lives? Biglaw doesn’t generally even let you do that, right? Seems like a huge strawman.

Isn't there something call a service partner or of counsel or something like that?

Why do you keep saying you're leaving yet you keep posting?

People keep asking me questions.

[Vexed]

3. "Yes, you can make a lot of money and have control over your life as a solo, but I would rather be a worker bee." I think this is the saddest one of all, because the author has resigned to a life of unhappiness. How do you get up in the morning and say that to yourself? Shouldn't you reach for the brass ring before giving up on life? Self esteem!

Ask yourself this. Have you ever seen a sincerely actually happy biglawyer? Ever? Reddit guy is a sincerely happy solo. Your turn to provide an example of a happy biglawer.

I'm sorry, the solo doing less sophisticated work for less pay from layman clients is the one reaching for the brass ring?

This is just kind of sad at this point. It takes like two seconds to find anecdotes of happy biglawyers on reddit.

[bonusnewsnow]

3. "Yes, you can make a lot of money and have control over your life as a solo, but I would rather be a worker bee." I think this is the saddest one of all, because the author has resigned to a life of unhappiness. How do you get up in the morning and say that to yourself? Shouldn't you reach for the brass ring before giving up on life? Self esteem!

Ask yourself this. Have you ever seen a sincerely actually happy biglawyer? Ever? Reddit guy is a sincerely happy solo. Your turn to provide an example of a happy biglawer.

I'm sorry, the solo doing less sophisticated work for less pay from layman clients is the one reaching for the brass ring?

This is just kind of sad at this point. It takes like two seconds to find anecdotes of happy biglawyers on reddit.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you the lifelong associate.

[nixy]

Do you find that throwing out characterizations that you’ve decided are insulting actually persuades anybody?

[Vexed]

>less money
>shitty admin tasks
>marketing obligations
>layman clients
>unsophisticated work

"but bro I'm in control"

[nahumya]

You can always start at a firm (biglaw or not), get some steady initial income, get some training (even lay clients don't love inexperienced lawyers), get some exposure to clients, see whether you can pull your own clients, and if you can - go solo and take them with you. If you want to sink-or-swim, might as well check out the water first.

[bonusnewsnow]

>less money
>shitty admin tasks
>marketing obligations
>layman clients
>unsophisticated work

"but bro I'm in control"

I see you've moved from response #3 to response #1.

[Vexed]

nah, everybody pretty thoroughly roasted you on how dumb your position on #1 was, don't think I need to cover that

[ESQ92]

Just to add to the convo: I do believe the IRS numbers are misleadingly low because just about all small business owners abuse the hell out of business deductions. I bet the solo reporting $60k in income probably had another $60k in deductions for "business expenses."

[Anonymous User]

Who here has suggested they want “a life-long associate position?” to be an associate for the rest of their lives? Biglaw doesn’t generally even let you do that, right? Seems like a huge strawman.

Isn't there something call a service partner or of counsel or something like that?

Yeah, but who said one had to be "of counsel" for life. It is fairly common for a freshly minted T14-T50 law school grad to go into a reputable midsize law firm in a larger market or litigation boutique in a larger market and pull down 200k/year for 8-10 years, gain real experience as a practicing attorney, develop client relationships/client development skills and then jump ship. I see it all the time among my law school peers, and it is likely my track as well. In this situation, if one is living below their means and in a non NYC/SF market, one can have a war chest of savings/investments and have "control" by the age of 35. Perhaps then the thought crosses one's mind to try the "solo" thing on for size or go in house. Or maybe something entirely different.

In the meantime, yes, I am a "worker bee". But my hours are generally 9-630 with occasional fire drills, I like my partners and have general control to organize free time as I see fit.

Look, I respect folks that have the moxie to take the plunge into "solo" practice. But then again, there are so many different types of solo work (e.g. non-contingent local counsel for blockbuster patent litigation in EDTX, or literally looking to gain the inside track on a deadly 18-wheeler accident on Interstate 10).

[bonusnewsnow]

Just to add to the convo: I do believe the IRS numbers are misleadingly low because just about all small business owners abuse the hell out of business deductions. I bet the solo reporting $60k in income probably had another $60k in deductions for "business expenses."

Those IRS numbers are not representative at all. As I wrote earlier, there is no way the average doctor with his own practice makes $71k and there's no chance the average filer with their own small business makes $16k.

[LawrenceGazebo]

Just to add to the convo: I do believe the IRS numbers are misleadingly low because just about all small business owners abuse the hell out of business deductions. I bet the solo reporting $60k in income probably had another $60k in deductions for "business expenses."

Those IRS numbers are not representative at all. As I wrote earlier, there is no way the average doctor with his own practice makes $71k and there's no chance the average filer with their own small business makes $16k.

I did some back of the napkin math and my conclusion is that the average lawyer with their own firm makes approximately $10,000,000 per year.

[Sackboy]

What a stupid schtick.

[bonusnewsnow]

The problem with that IRS link, is that it only includes people who report Schedule C income as a sole proprietor. For example,
1. Uber drivers and the like.
2. Doc review lawyers paid as independent contractors.
3. Doctors who work part-time in someone else's office as an IC. This explains why doctors on the site earned an average of $71k.
4. Other IC's. That's why the average income of people who file that way is only $16k.

I guess some solo attorney could file taxes in that way too, but if they have any level of success they'll set up their business differently.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Also, explain this.

"Sixty-eight percent of solo and small-firm lawyers believe they are fairly compensated for their work, according to an online survey by the Martindale Legal Marketing Network. Solo and small-firm lawyers made an average of $198,000 last year, while their median earnings were $140,000, according to a press release."

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article ... _last_year

Everyone else has already rightfully dunked on you ITT, but since you're a useful negative example: You clearly don't bother reading what you reference. The average solo lawyer in that survey made $148k compared to $226 for small-firm. They didn't break down medians separately but it's highly likely the *median* solo in the survey was making considerably less than $140k. And even if I thought it was a representative sample (I don't; see below), 87% of the respondents are 35 and older. The median respondent was over 50. If you're telling me going the small firm/solo route is a path to making $140k by the time I'm 50 (or, per above, even less for a pure solo), I'm gonna tell you that's not something I would advise someone to spend $200k on law school for unless they really have a burning desire to practice. I don't think anyone's disputing you can be a successful solo after you've practiced for a while; they're only saying it's highly unlikely you're gonna make great money in your first few years out of school.

And I even think the above is a wildly optimistic way to look at it, because it suffers from:

--Cherry-picking: I'm sure you found this survey showing solo practitioners had a median income between $75k and $100k, because it took about twelve seconds to come up on Google.

--Response bias: It's well-documented that people who respond to salary surveys tend to have higher incomes than those who don't. Like high school reunions, voluntary surveys almost always overstate the true success rate.

--Survivorship bias: Surveys of solos by definition are only a snapshot of people still doing it, and people inherently tend to be more likely to keep doing things they're successful at and stop doing things they're failing at. Therefore, not included are the many people who left because they were making minimal or zero money (or often, actually losing it). The numbers therefore significantly overstate the likelihood of success for any given person who tries it.

I'm not gonna deal with the rest of the platitudinous bullshit like "Biglaw has the most miserable clients!" and "solos get to set their own schedule!" and "X is happier than Y!" because it's just flinging poop back and forth. I'm only here to say what is provable: The large majority of Biglaw attorneys make *significantly* more than the large majority of solo and small attorneys of the same age/experience cohort and it would be wise to consider that information in one's employment choices.

[bonusnewsnow]

Also, explain this.

"Sixty-eight percent of solo and small-firm lawyers believe they are fairly compensated for their work, according to an online survey by the Martindale Legal Marketing Network. Solo and small-firm lawyers made an average of $198,000 last year, while their median earnings were $140,000, according to a press release."

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article ... _last_year

Everyone else has already rightfully dunked on you ITT, but since you're a useful negative example: You clearly don't bother reading what you reference. The average solo lawyer in that survey made $148k compared to $226 for small-firm. They didn't break down medians separately but it's highly likely the *median* solo in the survey was making considerably less than $140k. And even if I thought it was a representative sample (I don't; see below), 87% of the respondents are 35 and older. The median respondent was over 50. If you're telling me going the small firm/solo route is a path to making $140k by the time I'm 50 (or, per above, even less for a pure solo), I'm gonna tell you that's not something I would advise someone to spend $200k on law school for unless they really have a burning desire to practice. I don't think anyone's disputing you can be a successful solo after you've practiced for a while; they're only saying it's highly unlikely you're gonna make great money in your first few years out of school.

And I even think the above is a wildly optimistic way to look at it, because it suffers from:

--Cherry-picking: I'm sure you found this survey showing solo practitioners had a median income between $75k and $100k, because it took about twelve seconds to come up on Google.

--Response bias: It's well-documented that people who respond to salary surveys tend to have higher incomes than those who don't. Like high school reunions, voluntary surveys almost always overstate the true success rate.

--Survivorship bias: Surveys of solos by definition are only a snapshot of people still doing it, and people inherently tend to be more likely to keep doing things they're successful at and stop doing things they're failing at. Therefore, not included are the many people who left because they were making minimal or zero money (or often, actually losing it). The numbers therefore significantly overstate the likelihood of success for any given person who tries it.

I'm not gonna deal with the rest of the platitudinous bullshit like "Biglaw has the most miserable clients!" and "solos get to set their own schedule!" and "X is happier than Y!" because it's just flinging poop back and forth. I'm only here to say what is provable: The large majority of Biglaw attorneys make *significantly* more than the large majority of solo and small attorneys of the same age/experience cohort and it would be wise to consider that information in one's employment choices.

Glad you read the wikipedia article on survey bias, and thanks for providing another data point to debunk that ridiculous "solos make an average of $46k" number.

Again, I never said that everyone who starts a practice will make a fortune. That's ridiculous. Nor did I say that every solo is rich. I said that among practicing lawyers, career biglaw associates are the losers of the group because they make the least per hour, in terms of money and happiness. Yes, some solos make $80k, but I'd rather make $80k for a part-time solo practice than make whatever you make to be some partner's 24/7 fart catcher.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I had a case recently where a corporate co-defendant was represented by a solo attorney who is closing up shop and returning to working for a firm because the economics were not working. People stay at firms not because they are “losers” but because it is very difficult to make similar money as a solo. This thread is the equivalent of saying everyone who has an office job is a loser because they should just play basketball and make $30 million a year like Lebron James.

[nixy]

Yes, some solos make $80k, but I'd rather make $80k for a part-time solo practice than make whatever you make to be some partner's 24/7 fart catcher.

So you're not actually in biglaw? Have you ever been in biglaw?

[Sackboy]

I had a case recently where a corporate co-defendant was represented by a solo attorney who is closing up shop and returning to working for a firm because the economics were not working. People stay at firms not because they are “losers” but because it is very difficult to make similar money as a solo. This thread is the equivalent of saying everyone who has an office job is a loser because they should just play basketball and make $30 million a year like Lebron James.

It's more like saying everyone who has an office job should leave and just start a successful 8-figure revenue business. It's missing a lot of the steps in between and the reality that the vast majority of businesses fail and most of the survivors are quite modest enterprises.

OP is total flame and an idiot.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I said that among practicing lawyers, career biglaw associates are the losers of the group because they make the least per hour, in terms of money

Putting the "losers" and who's-happier stuff aside, this is another wild claim you made with zero evidence. We just established the high likelihood that Biglaw associates ("career Biglaw associate," whatever the fuck you meant, is not a thing) are making *at least* 3x what most solos at comparable experience levels are, so it makes zero sense if you're telling me solos are working ~15-20 hours a week. Everyone who has ever been a solo (including many on this forum) will tell you about the major amount of infrastructure you need to even begin and the extensive amount of time that goes into things like marketing and collections. It's not a part-time job for the large majority of people.

You might have an easier time making this case if you didn't blow your credibility saying shit like this.

[masterherm]

Yes, some solos make $80k, but I'd rather make $80k for a part-time solo practice than make whatever you make to be some partner's 24/7 fart catcher.

So you're not actually in biglaw? Have you ever been in biglaw?

He hasn’t been in big law, and it doesn’t take a psychologist to know he’s projecting and weirdly jealous of those in big law. OP should just go start a successful solo practice and report back. Good luck.

[bonusnewsnow]

I had a case recently where a corporate co-defendant was represented by a solo attorney who is closing up shop and returning to working for a firm because the economics were not working. People stay at firms not because they are “losers” but because it is very difficult to make similar money as a solo. This thread is the equivalent of saying everyone who has an office job is a loser because they should just play basketball and make $30 million a year like Lebron James.

Your story verifies my original post. Many losers try for something better before they settle for less. Your friend wanted something better, but he couldn't do it, so he returned to biglaw to be some partner's bitch. Again, I'm not saying every person who opens their own practice will do well. I'm saying that among practicing attorneys, career biglaw associates are the losers.

[bonusnewsnow]

I said that among practicing lawyers, career biglaw associates are the losers of the group because they make the least per hour, in terms of money

Putting the "losers" and who's-happier stuff aside, this is another wild claim you made with zero evidence. We just established the high likelihood that Biglaw associates ("career Biglaw associate," whatever the fuck you meant, is not a thing) are making *at least* 3x what most solos at comparable experience levels are, so it makes zero sense if you're telling me solos are working ~15-20 hours a week. Everyone who has ever been a solo (including many on this forum) will tell you about the major amount of infrastructure you need to even begin and the extensive amount of time that goes into things like marketing and collections. It's not a part-time job for the large majority of people.

You might have an easier time making this case if you didn't blow your credibility saying shit like this.

I see we're back to canned answer #1, where you comment about something you have no personal experience with. Career biglaw associate is a thing. Of counsel, counsel, service partner, non-share partner, equity partner with few points.