Mid-Year Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

Think all firms with high PPP i.e. Milbank, Cahill, etc. are all going to match along with the v10 too. Hoping no TTT hours requirement attached to it though.

If there's an hours requirement, not a single first year at my V50 is going to get a bonus.

Are you lit or corporate? I'm a corporate first year at a V50 in NYC and I'm on pace for 2,200 (as are many of my friends both in the firm and outside the firm).

Not OP. I’m at a lit-heavy V20 and things are pretty slow here. I billed probably 150 total over my first three months, but have since billed about 400 over the last two. So things are ramping up but I don’t think anyone who started in the fall would be on a 2,000 prorated pace here either.

Right. Things are generally slow at my V20 litigation department. Doesn’t mean that some people aren’t getting killed on big litigations and investigations. But it’s generally slow. One cause is the fact that Trump is starting less investigations. But our corporate department is minting money. I don’t doubt that we could pay bonuses.

The question isn’t affordability or slow litigation at all. The whole point of having strong litigation and corporate is as a hedge. When one is down, the other is up and the partners are still rich as fuck. The only question is whether the big boys with the same recruitment targets match. We will always follow their lead so as to avoid bad optics in the eyes of “future stars.” Even if litigation is slow, we need to be perceived as elite among future recruits. The summer bonuses are relatively cheap advertising.

[thelawyler]

I highly doubt my V40 will match this one. They couldn't even give out annual bonuses to all the high billers.

You need to out this firm. Which is it?

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure this move will be widely followed. Hours at my V10 are slightly down, across the board. And with the yield curve inconveniently inverting this week, firms may be more skittish than usual about a recession right now.

Would love it if it happened though!

[2013]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

[Love With The Coco]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

[2013]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

[Love With The Coco]

What other Biglaw firms traditionally offer summer bonuses? Cahill? Any others?

[Anonymous User]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

My firm has a big SV presence, especially for a non-indigenous firm. Hoping the first mover being Gunderson forces their hand.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

Yeah, Gunderson is definitely in the “different” category. I mean, their business model is largely predicated on getting EC work and not charging for the first x hours then hoping they grow. Compare that to a traditional NYC white shoe that would rather eat shit than lower billing rates, let alone doing work for free. I wouldn’t be shocked if the non-CA firms that aren’t big in the EC/VC (and I mean BIG) realm don’t feel threatened.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

Yeah, Gunderson is definitely in the “different” category. I mean, their business model is largely predicated on getting EC work and not charging for the first x hours then hoping they grow. Compare that to a traditional NYC white shoe that would rather eat shit than lower billing rates, let alone doing work for free. I wouldn’t be shocked if the non-CA firms that aren’t big in the EC/VC (and I mean BIG) realm don’t feel threatened.

That’s true of all the emerging company firms, including WSGR, Cooley, Fenwick, etc. and even the “traditional firms” that play in the emerging company space like Latham, Goodwin, MoFo etc. In my experience, what makes Gunderson different than these firms is they really excel in the early company space, but don’t do particularly well at M&A or capital markets work like the other emerging company firms. I frankly don’t get their model, as M&A and capital markets are what make the early stage work profitable. I actually thought they would be the one firm that DIDNT match last summer - shows what I know.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

Yeah, Gunderson is definitely in the “different” category. I mean, their business model is largely predicated on getting EC work and not charging for the first x hours then hoping they grow. Compare that to a traditional NYC white shoe that would rather eat shit than lower billing rates, let alone doing work for free. I wouldn’t be shocked if the non-CA firms that aren’t big in the EC/VC (and I mean BIG) realm don’t feel threatened.

That’s true of all the emerging company firms, including WSGR, Cooley, Fenwick, etc. and even the “traditional firms” that play in the emerging company space like Latham, Goodwin, MoFo etc. In my experience, what makes Gunderson different than these firms is they really excel in the early company space, but don’t do particularly well at M&A or capital markets work like the other emerging company firms. I frankly don’t get their model, as M&A and capital markets are what make the early stage work profitable. I actually thought they would be the one firm that DIDNT match last summer - shows what I know.

You’re completely right about cap markers and completely wrong about M&A. Gunderson makes a lot of money doing sell side M&A and has prominent practitioners.

[LaChusa2020]

So is this not happening then? BC I had PLANS for this money (paying debt and getting out sooner tbh) and the thought of it has been getting me through the past few days. All unwarranted optimism welcomed.

[rokiv]

So is this not happening then? BC I had PLANS for this money (paying debt and getting out sooner tbh) and the thought of it has been getting me through the past few days. All unwarranted optimism welcomed.

I think there is still a decent shot this will happen, we still have a full week before we are at the point in the year where bonuses were announced last year. Firms could be waiting for the weekend to announce, or they could be waiting for the month end financials.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe firms will view these summer bonuses by Gunderson similarly to a boutique lit firm giving massive bonuses. Gunderson is still generally small compared to its competitors. Maybe firms will offer generous bonuses when they hire laterals (if some of their associates leave to go to Gunderson). Gunderson only has like 160 associates nationwide, so not many people are seeing these bonuses anyway.

Can any California folks comment on how Gunderson is portrayed in comparison to WSGR, Cooley, etc? If it is seen as a boutique firm clearly ahead of those firms, I don't think they will feel the need to match. And NYC won't match unless the other Bay firms move.

I think a previous CA person said Gunderson regularly takes associates from the other firms and they think the CA firms will need to match. But maybe the firms will handle it differently (i.e. huge lateral bonuses instead) was what I meant.

SV associate here (at a non-indigenous firm but regularly work opposite Gunderson, Cooley, WSGR, Fenwick). I view Gunderson a little differently than the others but not as a boutique, just a firm with a different business focus. I would expect Cooley and WSGR to match, but California is weird. Fenwick already doesn't pay market bonuses and it doesn't have any problem with getting top associates. The California firms are also likely to move more slowly because they're not traditionally the first movers, so it might take a little longer for there to be a match. So I am still optimistic, but I certainly don't view summer bonuses as a sure thing the way they would be if Cravath had moved first.

As west coast emerging companies lawyer who routinely works across from all of these firms I cannot imagine Cooley/Fenwick/WSGR not matching Gunderson. They are absolutely competitors and fighting for the same people.

Trying to parse out how they’re actually different is being a bit too clever by half... I just don’t see it. If you're not giving out 15k-50k of free legal services to a promising start-up with a good founder team, you're not a serious player in the emerging companies space. That's not some magic Gunderson differentiator.

And a good emerging companies practice is a massive driver of firm revenue, because you get a chance (if not just handed) IP work, GDPR privacy shit, commercial litigation, labor and employment and anything else under the sun that comes up when you're the only lawyer the CEO trusts. Sure M&A is nice, but sell side M&A is a one time gig. A growing private company that has an annual six figure legal spend across departments is way more valuable than a single M&A transaction.

[Anonymous User]

Gunderson is really in a category of its own, even when compared to other SF/SV emerging company practices. Their bread and butter is their startup practice with sell side M&A (and even then they lose a lot of their near exit companies to Cooley/Fenwick/WSGR). They've poached a few partners recently to try to grow their cap markets practice but they really still don't do that and even their specialist groups within their startup practice aren't that great when compared to their competitors.

Their closest competitors in the startup space are Cooley, Fenwick, Orrick, Goodwin and to a lesser extent WSGR and Latham I'd say. The latter 2 aren't even really competitors as they focus much more on bigger deals and clients now and aren't particularly known for the startup stuff - I don't really think they compete with Gunderson for the same associate or even client pool. They might still see themselves as competitors given that they are indigenous CA firms with strong corporate tech practices (WSGR especially) but imo Gunderson's practice is much more similar to Cooley, Fenwick, Orrick and Goodwin.

Orrick is generally cheap and won't match with just Gunderson. Even though they compete directly in the emerging company practice, Orrick is much bigger and more diverse practice group wise and geographically - I doubt one of their competitors in one niche space would cause them to match. That being said a lot of their heavy hitter partners are ecg lawyers (their Chairman for example) and that group tends to lead the direction of the firm in a lot of ways.

Fenwick is also generally cheap, they just switched to a market bonus system recently after years of complaints. They're probably Gunderson's closest direct competitor, they just opened a NY office (Gunderson and Cooley have historically been the bigger players in the startup space there) and they for sure compete directly for talent and clients (coming out of interviews in the bay area, students looking for a startup practice gun for Cooley-Fenwick-Gunderson with all other firms kindof seen as inferior). Fenwick hasn't historically been quick to move and even if they did, I could see other firms especially in NYC still not being threatened.

Cooley would probably be more likely than the rest to get the ball rolling imo. I thinks WSGR and Latham would be more likely to see them as a direct competitor as compared to Gunderson, Fenwick and Orrick since they're better on the capital markets and buy side M&A stuff. WSGR and Latham moving would be huge, basically every CA firm would see them as a competitor in some way which would get the ball moving in NY as well.

I don't know anything about Goodwin. I know Perkins also has a relatively competitive startup group but don't know much about them either. MoFo also has a decent corporate group, but I think they tend to play second fiddle to the firms above in basically every area.

[Anonymous User]

The silence from other law firms has been deafening. People aren’t even talking about the bonuses at my V20. I’m starting to think that everyone will just ignore Gunderson.

[objctnyrhnr]

The silence from other law firms has been deafening. People aren’t even talking about the bonuses at my V20. I’m starting to think that everyone will just ignore Gunderson.

I disagree. I think this is the expected silent period while the powers that be at the amlaw50 internally confer on whether to match after the first firm moves.

In other words I don’t think that not having heard anything else from other firms yet, at this specific point, means anything in terms of whether there will be matches.

In a week or maybe two from now, if still complete silence, I’ll change my position on that.

[Chardee_MacDennis]

The silence from other law firms has been deafening. People aren’t even talking about the bonuses at my V20. I’m starting to think that everyone will just ignore Gunderson.

I disagree. I think this is the expected silent period while the powers that be at the amlaw50 internally confer on whether to match after the first firm moves.

In other words I don’t think that not having heard anything else from other firms yet, at this specific point, means anything in terms of whether there will be matches.

In a week or maybe two from now, if still complete silence, I’ll change my position on that.

I largely agree with this. It definitely hasn't gone unnoticed at my firm, but it's not being discussed as much had one of the traditional comp leaders moved first.

This is a move that is going to be led by one of the big SV firms with a nationwide/NY presence. The V10 has no incentive to move prior to that.

If there's been no movement by next Friday, I'd say the dream is likely dead.

[inter-associate]

This is a move that is going to be led by one of the big SV firms with a nationwide/NY presence. The V10 has no incentive to move prior to that.

Not saying this is without merit, but I think a lot of folks at V10s are going to be pretty annoyed if Gunderson joins the list of firms that are viewed as exceptions to the "we are committed to top of the market compensation" mantra of the top firms. Just doesn't feel like the type of firm that should be on that list (acknowledging, of course, that my feelings have nothing to do with how this will ultimately play out).

[Anonymous User]

The silence from other law firms has been deafening. People aren’t even talking about the bonuses at my V20. I’m starting to think that everyone will just ignore Gunderson.

This. I'm at one of the bigger out of town players in SV (think Goodwin, Latham) and this is not even on people's radars.

As a side note, Gunderson has been on a lateral hiring binge this year on both coasts. I imagine this is going to help them greatly if nobody else matches.

[spyke123]

Hasnt cahill given out summer bonuses with some frequency without other firms matching? Pretty bummed that no other firm has moved yet.

[splitmuch]

Hasnt cahill given out summer bonuses with some frequency without other firms matching? Pretty bummed that no other firm has moved yet.

I don't think anyone should have expected a move this week. I think Gunderson puts pressure on other firms but not a "we have to decide within the next x days" pressure or, more apt, "we need to rescheduled our previously scheduled executive committee meeting" pressure. I also think that Gunderson's direct competitors that have been referenced in this thread likely don't want to react just to Gunderson before knowing how the major market-setters will react.

[purpletiger]

I think that, dumb as it may seem, the bonuses were poorly publicized by ATL, AmLaw, etc. So it’s just not on peoples radars. Last year’s bonuses were widely discussed for weeks. The few people I’ve talked to about the bonuses were all surprised to hear about it and didn’t know it occurred last week.

[KM2016]

I think that, dumb as it may seem, the bonuses were poorly publicized by ATL, AmLaw, etc. So it’s just not on peoples radars. Last year’s bonuses were widely discussed for weeks. The few people I’ve talked to about the bonuses were all surprised to hear about it and didn’t know it occurred last week.

I tend to agree with this. Had it been a NY-based firm, there would be way more chatter and news. Hopefully one of the other SV firms with a more national presence will match and get the ball rolling.