On pace for 15th straight month of 240+ billables. AMA Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP, do you think this volume of work has made you a better lawyer? (Serious question; no judgment implied.)

I think so - it has been a heavy volume in a large variety of situations with many different assignments, so I have gotten experience well beyond my class year. At least that’s what I tell myself

[Anonymous User]

I agree with the general sentiment in this thread that 2500+ hours SUCKS and probably isn't great for one's health or even their career. But I also understand the mindset of OP and if they are ok with the grind then oh well.

I would much rather bill 1800 hours per year and make still very great money than bill 2500 and mike a small percentage more. But there's also a peace of mind that comes with billing a whole lot; you're job is infinitely more secure in that scenario than it is being a low biller (not saying partnership, just being kept around through mid and senior associate). It's a hedged bet in my mind.

Lastly about all the biglaw hate: do people really get emails on vacation or on Saturday night at 9pm requiring immediate work? Are people really afraid that if they tell a partner "sorry I have a family thing tonight, will have to be tomorrow morning" that they will get fired? Sure, I've had situations like that (V10 M&A), but you know they're coming well in advance and if I had an important personal thing I would have gotten coverage. True surprise emergencies are no more common in my mind than they are in any six-figure job. I think a lot of this problem comes from TLS people being afraid to stand up for themselves or to communicate ahead of time.

One of the benefits of being a very high biller is getting a lot of leeway with this type of thing - people give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you are very busy or working on something else

[Anonymous User]

Definitely been there. Hit 3000 hours in 2017. Had a couple of 300+ hour months. That was fun. Hang in there, it gets better once you get more senior/promoted. Just don't assume that you'll make equity partner at eight years because you hit high hours year-in and year-out. Sometimes it is just out of your control. I made non-equity partner at eight years and equity partner is probably still 2-5 years off just due to the dynamics in my group.

[Anonymous User]

I think from an hours and work-life balance perspective, your experience is objectively bad, OP, even for biglaw.

The only thing I’m disagreeing with is that you keep saying it is objective

It’s objective in the broad sense that most people want and need more than work in their life.
It’s possible you are one of the high energy associates that need little sleep to function. My friends like that could bill long hours and still maintain friendships and marraige without exhaustion. Another characteristic was they were super organized and able to prioritize work.

Yeah that describes me precisely. Organized to a fault and able to function on low sleep for long periods of time on end. You’re right that those traits make this much easier

[jacketyellow]

I think from an hours and work-life balance perspective, your experience is objectively bad, OP, even for biglaw.

The only thing I’m disagreeing with is that you keep saying it is objective

It’s objective in the broad sense that most people want and need more than work in their life.
It’s possible you are one of the high energy associates that need little sleep to function. My friends like that could bill long hours and still maintain friendships and marraige without exhaustion. Another characteristic was they were super organized and able to prioritize work.

Yeah that describes me precisely. Organized to a fault and able to function on low sleep for long periods of time on end. You’re right that those traits make this much easier

Yeah, it makes it easier in the short term, but in it's definitely not sustainable in the long term. Your body just needs to rest and sleep, at a certain point.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as someone who ran away from biglaw in my second year, I just don't understand how people can put up with this life day-in/day-out. It's crazy. And for what? Bragging rights? At the end of the day, who cares about this stuff? Do you really care about the work you're doing? Be honest.

The sad part is not the people doing it for the money. That, while I disagree with the value system, I can understand. The sad part is the people who actually think they are doing meaningful work, or that the system wouldn't just advance exactly the same if they somehow worked less. I dont know if that comes down to narcissism, or idealism, or what. Or those on the spectrum, which I can totally understand.

Big Law work is mostly not important. If it were that important, they would not allow you to work on it after billing 15 straight months of 240+ hours. There is a reason pilots and air traffic controllers cant work those schedules, by law-- its because their work is important. There are very very very few people that are able to put out high quality work consistently working that much, in a high stress environment, sleep deprived. I have reviewed work of those types of billers, usually many years later when it comes back to bite the client in a litigation or contract dispute. There are usually a lot of "wtf happened here" types of things.

OP here-this is a very silly argument. Pilots and air traffic controllers (whose work is very important) have those strict schedules because if they doze off people will have their lives endangered or die. Big law work, which is often (but oftentimes not) very important will not result in any deaths or lives endangered if I doze off at my desk while working on my document.

If you need heart surgery, do you take the doctor who sleeps 4 hours a night and has worked 80 hour weeks non-stop for 6+ months; or do you take the doctor who sleeps 8 hours a night and has worked 40 hour weeks, and just took a trip last month to Jamaica to refresh.

Do you honestly believe that the quality of your work is not suffering, and/or that you are not making more mistakes than you otherwise would as a result of being overworked and sleep deprived? There are very very very few people who are not affected by those conditions. Like I said, I routinely review things written by very good attorneys and often find mistakes that are clearly signs of being overworked (but dont worry, often these people are partners by the time some contract they put together 10 years becomes important).

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:

(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?

(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?

It’s like you said - for the most part I enjoy my work and enjoy my client relationships, so I’m able to derive meaning from my work. That certainly helps to stave off the negative feelings people get, which I think largely originated from people feeling like what they are doing is meaningless/not worthwhile

You said you work in one of the practice areas associated with long hours here. Would you say you work in the one that provides a wide variety of experiences, really puts you in a necessary role and has a small chance of leading to the promised land?

Op here and I have no idea what the last part of your question is referring too

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as someone who ran away from biglaw in my second year, I just don't understand how people can put up with this life day-in/day-out. It's crazy. And for what? Bragging rights? At the end of the day, who cares about this stuff? Do you really care about the work you're doing? Be honest.

The sad part is not the people doing it for the money. That, while I disagree with the value system, I can understand. The sad part is the people who actually think they are doing meaningful work, or that the system wouldn't just advance exactly the same if they somehow worked less. I dont know if that comes down to narcissism, or idealism, or what. Or those on the spectrum, which I can totally understand.

Big Law work is mostly not important. If it were that important, they would not allow you to work on it after billing 15 straight months of 240+ hours. There is a reason pilots and air traffic controllers cant work those schedules, by law-- its because their work is important. There are very very very few people that are able to put out high quality work consistently working that much, in a high stress environment, sleep deprived. I have reviewed work of those types of billers, usually many years later when it comes back to bite the client in a litigation or contract dispute. There are usually a lot of "wtf happened here" types of things.

OP here-this is a very silly argument. Pilots and air traffic controllers (whose work is very important) have those strict schedules because if they doze off people will have their lives endangered or die. Big law work, which is often (but oftentimes not) very important will not result in any deaths or lives endangered if I doze off at my desk while working on my document.

If you need heart surgery, do you take the doctor who sleeps 4 hours a night and has worked 80 hour weeks non-stop for 6+ months; or do you take the doctor who sleeps 8 hours a night and has worked 40 hour weeks, and just took a trip last month to Jamaica to refresh.

Do you honestly believe that the quality of your work is not suffering, and/or that you are not making more mistakes than you otherwise would as a result of being overworked and sleep deprived? There are very very very few people who are not affected by those conditions. Like I said, I routinely review things written by very good attorneys and often find mistakes that are clearly signs of being overworked (but dont worry, often these people are partners by the time some contract they put together 10 years becomes important).

You made the same exact argument with the pilots and the air traffic controllers. Sure, I agree with you that I wouldn’t want someone to be tired where one wrong move can be life or death. That’s not biglaw though. If i doze off no one dies on the operating table.

And I can only repeat what has been said at my previous reviews, where I have been praised for being able to turn in very high quality work despite working very long hiurs

[LBJ's Hair]

Speaking as someone who ran away from biglaw in my second year, I just don't understand how people can put up with this life day-in/day-out. It's crazy. And for what? Bragging rights? At the end of the day, who cares about this stuff? Do you really care about the work you're doing? Be honest.

The sad part is not the people doing it for the money. That, while I disagree with the value system, I can understand. The sad part is the people who actually think they are doing meaningful work, or that the system wouldn't just advance exactly the same if they somehow worked less. I dont know if that comes down to narcissism, or idealism, or what. Or those on the spectrum, which I can totally understand.

Big Law work is mostly not important. If it were that important, they would not allow you to work on it after billing 15 straight months of 240+ hours. There is a reason pilots and air traffic controllers cant work those schedules, by law-- its because their work is important. There are very very very few people that are able to put out high quality work consistently working that much, in a high stress environment, sleep deprived. I have reviewed work of those types of billers, usually many years later when it comes back to bite the client in a litigation or contract dispute. There are usually a lot of "wtf happened here" types of things.

OP here-this is a very silly argument. Pilots and air traffic controllers (whose work is very important) have those strict schedules because if they doze off people will have their lives endangered or die. Big law work, which is often (but oftentimes not) very important will not result in any deaths or lives endangered if I doze off at my desk while working on my document.

If you need heart surgery, do you take the doctor who sleeps 4 hours a night and has worked 80 hour weeks non-stop for 6+ months; or do you take the doctor who sleeps 8 hours a night and has worked 40 hour weeks, and just took a trip last month to Jamaica to refresh.

Do you honestly believe that the quality of your work is not suffering, and/or that you are not making more mistakes than you otherwise would as a result of being overworked and sleep deprived? There are very very very few people who are not affected by those conditions. Like I said, I routinely review things written by very good attorneys and often find mistakes that are clearly signs of being overworked (but dont worry, often these people are partners by the time some contract they put together 10 years becomes important).

Eh, I think it's debatable whether 2,000 billed hours of excellent work is better, from the firm's perspective, than 2,500 billed hours of very good work. doing shit well is obviously important, but so is availability/stamina/grit/whatever.

[MillllerTime]

Eh, I think it's debatable whether 2,000 billed hours of excellent work is better, from the firm's perspective, than 2,500 billed hours of very good work. doing shit well is obviously important, but so is availability/stamina/grit/whatever.

I'm willing to bet most partners prefer 2500+ hours of good work, at least from junior and midlevels. They can review work and add value, but they're not going to add 500 hours of grunt work. That definitely changes as you get more senior and partners need to find people they trust to do great work without the added review, but brunt force hours is very valuable for the first several years.

[dabigchina]

I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:

(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?

(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?

It’s like you said - for the most part I enjoy my work and enjoy my client relationships, so I’m able to derive meaning from my work. That certainly helps to stave off the negative feelings people get, which I think largely originated from people feeling like what they are doing is meaningless/not worthwhile

You said you work in one of the practice areas associated with long hours here. Would you say you work in the one that provides a wide variety of experiences, really puts you in a necessary role and has a small chance of leading to the promised land?

Op here and I have no idea what the last part of your question is referring too

I read that as "are you killing yourself to work towards something, or are you just killing yourself because it's what's expected/you want to make partner"

[MaxMcMann]

I’m a 2L who will be summering at a big law firm in a major market this upcoming summer. Question is twofold:

(1) in general, how do people become so bitter about working in big law? It seems like it is more than just the hours/constant availability, which I can understand (and expect) to be draining. But the snipes at advancement opportunities and big law work in general, I just don’t understand. You’re essentially working at the top of the profession on matters that 95% of lawyers never will—how does that experience sour people so much that they can’t comprehend others getting joy from doing that?

(2) To OP: how have you prevented the above bitterness from setting in? In other words, what has helped you to keep your biglaw experience as a net positive?

It’s like you said - for the most part I enjoy my work and enjoy my client relationships, so I’m able to derive meaning from my work. That certainly helps to stave off the negative feelings people get, which I think largely originated from people feeling like what they are doing is meaningless/not worthwhile

You said you work in one of the practice areas associated with long hours here. Would you say you work in the one that provides a wide variety of experiences, really puts you in a necessary role and has a small chance of leading to the promised land?

Op here and I have no idea what the last part of your question is referring too

I read that as "are you killing yourself to work towards something, or are you just killing yourself because it's what's expected/you want to make partner"

Nah. Truth is I was fishing to see if he does bankruptcy/restructuring. My bad. Didn't read the thread before asking and when I saw how many people pissed off OP doing similar things I asked to delete the comment but guess that never got approved.

[MaxMcMann]

Speaking as someone who ran away from biglaw in my second year, I just don't understand how people can put up with this life day-in/day-out. It's crazy. And for what? Bragging rights? At the end of the day, who cares about this stuff? Do you really care about the work you're doing? Be honest.

The sad part is not the people doing it for the money. That, while I disagree with the value system, I can understand. The sad part is the people who actually think they are doing meaningful work, or that the system wouldn't just advance exactly the same if they somehow worked less. I dont know if that comes down to narcissism, or idealism, or what. Or those on the spectrum, which I can totally understand.

Big Law work is mostly not important. If it were that important, they would not allow you to work on it after billing 15 straight months of 240+ hours. There is a reason pilots and air traffic controllers cant work those schedules, by law-- its because their work is important. There are very very very few people that are able to put out high quality work consistently working that much, in a high stress environment, sleep deprived. I have reviewed work of those types of billers, usually many years later when it comes back to bite the client in a litigation or contract dispute. There are usually a lot of "wtf happened here" types of things.

OP here-this is a very silly argument. Pilots and air traffic controllers (whose work is very important) have those strict schedules because if they doze off people will have their lives endangered or die. Big law work, which is often (but oftentimes not) very important will not result in any deaths or lives endangered if I doze off at my desk while working on my document.

If you need heart surgery, do you take the doctor who sleeps 4 hours a night and has worked 80 hour weeks non-stop for 6+ months; or do you take the doctor who sleeps 8 hours a night and has worked 40 hour weeks, and just took a trip last month to Jamaica to refresh.

Do you honestly believe that the quality of your work is not suffering, and/or that you are not making more mistakes than you otherwise would as a result of being overworked and sleep deprived? There are very very very few people who are not affected by those conditions. Like I said, I routinely review things written by very good attorneys and often find mistakes that are clearly signs of being overworked (but dont worry, often these people are partners by the time some contract they put together 10 years becomes important).

Do you know any surgeons? I know a few and I have yet to meet one who works 40 hours a week and lives a stress-free life. I mean sure if you want to hang a shingle and be a plastic surgeon but as far as I know ones in top hospitals don't live remotely that relaxed of a lifestyle.

By the way, the surgeon working 80 hour weeks gets twice as much experience as the one working 40 hour weeks, which in itself is valuable. I would imagine more valuable than in BigLaw because the human body is far more varied and unpredictable than an M&A deal so it pays to have experience dealing with rare forks in the road, but I'm not a surgeon so I can't say for sure.

Also surgery is a terrible example because surgery, despite being physically exhausting, can easily take 12+ hours, sometimes stretching out far longer if there are complications.

[dabigchina]

OP: sorry if this has been covered already, but are working like this to work towards something, or are you just killing yourself because it's what's expected and it's easier to go with the flow? Are you gunning for partner? Is that something that the firm has talked to you about/dangled in front of you?

[Anonymous User]

OP: sorry if this has been covered already, but are working like this to work towards something, or are you just killing yourself because it's what's expected and it's easier to go with the flow? Are you gunning for partner? Is that something that the firm has talked to you about/dangled in front of you?

There have been general discussions about my next few years at the firm and expectations going forward. I’m not sure yet if I want to go for partner, but if the opportunity was clearly possible, I would likely give it a shot going for it