Is Miami biglaw still 'that' competitive? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Depends what you want to do and what year you’re in. The money may be worth it if you’re *junior* and have no interest in building a book and/or making partner. But if you’re a mid level or above, I wouldn’t go somewhere you have virtually no shot at doing either.

Uh, I'd rather take an extra 100k+ annually for 2-4 years than gamble on making partner at these firms (you're not going to make partner).

I work at one of the non-market firms. I don’t think you’ll be making over 100k annually over a GT/Holland & Knight associate until maybe 6th year assuming you hit hours for bonus. I have friends at some of the market firms and hours aren’t the easiest to come by for the seniors they work with because they’re competing with the Miami rates at HK (senior associate is probably $200-300 cheaper/hr in some practice groups).

AFAIK, the firms paying NY do a lot of non-Miami work so they don't have to deal with billing rate discrepancies. Anyway, not looking to argue, but in my experience, the only two things that really matter in biglaw are the time commitments and the compensation. If the time is the same, there's very little that can justify not getting paid an extra 50-100k. But to each his own.

Bad advice. For starters, the discrepancy isn’t 100. It is significant, though. But being a senior-level associate with virtually no shot a partnership (or worse—being passed up), no book, and no real business ties in the area is far from ideal. I’ve seen it happen quite a bit, even to a close friend. They eventually get forced out or jump elsewhere for a major pay cut, as they aren’t exactly marketable at that point, hoping they can make partner at smaller shop.

Conversely, I’ve seen others who started or lateraled to HK/Bilzin/Stearns/Akerman/etc before their 6th year and coasted their way into partnership. And say what you want, but being a parter at any one of those firms is better than being a 10th-year associate at WC/HL who got passed up for partner and has absolutely no book or real market ties down here.

For most lawyers, practicing is a long game. 30 years, plus. Too many, though, get blinded by short-term stuff and don’t realize their mistake ‘till it’s too late. That’s my two cents on it, at least.

As for the money, I’d rather take a “pay cut” and bill under 2k, than work 200-400 hours to make 50k more. That should be factored in, too.

Is there an argument that WC / MWE / HL training is better than the native firms? What is the best time to lateral to HK / Akerman, etc. if playing the long game? Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

I’m at one of H&K/GT/Akerman/Bilzin. I think the training is probably better at the native firms, especially akerman and bilzin because that is the center of gravity of the firms.

Best time to lateral will be 4-5 year. The non-market firms do pay their laterals better. By 4-5 years, you will no longer need to be trained and you will still have time to develop ties and generate business by the time junior partnership rolls around at 8-10 years at these firms.

FWIW, my friend waited til 7th year to lateral to Akerman from a market firm and Akerman has a very strict 2-year waiting period for non-equity partnership, so he has to wait until after 9th year even though his supervisor wants him to be promoted this year. Non-equity partners at these firms probably make 300-400 depending on the form, which is obviously lower than a senior associate at a market paying firm after bonus, but it’s all about career trajectory.

Thanks. I take most of your points, but confused why the non-market firms pay laterals better if the best training is at the non-market firms in the first place.

Am I misreading your response?

[sflyr2016]

I'm at one of the firms the above-poster mentioned, too. And I agree with everything he/she said. As for pay at the satellite/NY-mkt-paying firms, they pay more because their billing rates are higher. And their rates are higher because they service higher-paying markets out of their Miami offices. But that's also the rub -- the Miami offices for those firms primarily service other offices; and, even those that do generate some business of their Miami office, they're routinely priced out down here because of their rates -- which is now a bigger problem in light of the recent raises.

Non-equity partners make about 3-400 at HK/B/Ak/GT. With bonuses up to 100. But, as partners, they have better lateral options, job security, and opportunity to build a book -- which goes a long way as origination credit even for associates is between 10-20%. That adds up.

Edit: To the extent the question re more pay is why do laterals get paid more, that's simply because of recruitment. To recruit, they need to shorten the pay gap. It's also practice-specific: they'll match or come closer to it for transactional than for litigation hires, precisely because of the training.

[Anonymous User]

To be completely honest, I think it is because a lot of Miami native firms have very small classes, so they do have to hire quite a few laterals. I think if the firm doesn’t train the associate themselves, they’d prefer the associates from the “best” firms. And to lure these associates away from huge salaries and bonuses, they have to offer a bit more to close the gap.

I also rarely see midlevel associates at H&K/Bilzin/Akerman go to a market firm (for many of the reasons mentioned), so that is probably how those firms continue to pay their more homegrown associates less.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks to everyone for all the info--I'm the person who asked about the WC payscale and why people would turn it down.

It seems like the best option for someone with massive debt is to start at WC/Boies/Weil/MWE/JD and then lateral to Akerman/Bilzin/HK, etc. after 3-6 years right?

Also, is there a firm that gives a better chance for AUSA or clerkships? I'd like to clerk for SDFL and/or 11th Cir. and eventually be an AUSA if possible. The WC people said they were extremely connected in SDFL so that would be a factor in deciding if true

[elbg]

Thanks to everyone for all the info--I'm the person who asked about the WC payscale and why people would turn it down.

It seems like the best option for someone with massive debt is to start at WC/Boies/Weil/MWE/JD and then lateral to Akerman/Bilzin/HK, etc. after 3-6 years right?

Also, is there a firm that gives a better chance for AUSA or clerkships? I'd like to clerk for SDFL and/or 11th Cir. and eventually be an AUSA if possible. The WC people said they were extremely connected in SDFL so that would be a factor in deciding if true

The people saying you're going to walk into partnership at Akerman/Bilzin/HK are not telling it to you straight. Go to WC/etc. and make your money. Those firms have plenty of clerks. And they have white collar work to get you to an AUSA spot -- especially the guys at WC who do their Latin American investigations.

[sflyr2016]

Not really. But local larger firms like Kobre and Kim and HK have ex USAOs (Willy Ferrer, for example, was the US Attorney down here recently), who, in theory, may be willing to help you down the road. Plenty of boutique firms do, too (e.g., Buckner + Miles). But timing and who you clerk for/how much your judge wants to help you are the biggest factors.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks to everyone for all the info--I'm the person who asked about the WC payscale and why people would turn it down.

It seems like the best option for someone with massive debt is to start at WC/Boies/Weil/MWE/JD and then lateral to Akerman/Bilzin/HK, etc. after 3-6 years right?

Also, is there a firm that gives a better chance for AUSA or clerkships? I'd like to clerk for SDFL and/or 11th Cir. and eventually be an AUSA if possible. The WC people said they were extremely connected in SDFL so that would be a factor in deciding if true

The people saying you're going to walk into partnership at Akerman/Bilzin/HK are not telling it to you straight. Go to WC/etc. and make your money. Those firms have plenty of clerks. And they have white collar work to get you to an AUSA spot -- especially the guys at WC who do their Latin American investigations.

No one said you’d walk in to partnership. Of course not. I think the point was your chances are far better. Then again, anything would be better than a non-zero chance — like it essentially is at any of those satellite offices.

And tbh, if you’ve survived 4 years of biglaw, weren’t pushed out, and were recruited as a mid-to-senior-level associate, then you’ve got a reasonably-decent chance—as the whole idea of bringing you in as a 5th/6th year (and paying more to get you) is they’re hoping you make partner.

[Anonymous User]

What does alot of hours mean in terms of Miami biglaw? For example, if WC is significantly more work than HK, what should a lit associate expect to bill at each to be in good standing?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any firm that is specifically better for clerkship chances? Specifically with Jordan or Rosinbaum, but also interested in regards to SDFL

[Anonymous User]

I am at one of the larger South Florida midlaw shops. Great experience so far. I have learned a lot substantively and have worked hard to foster good relationships. With that said, part of me feels that a jump to a biglaw shop in the near future would be advisable. My firm is by no means a "sweat shop," but the hours requirement is strict and is no better than most biglaw shops. And although I have enjoyed the substantive work opportunities, I feel that the work flow is somewhat inconsistent, forcing me (and other juniors) to constantly play catch-up. Another issue that I am starting to notice more is the lack of practical training opportunities. For example, I am almost a mid-level (think third- or fourth-year), and I have only handled three very minor hearings and conducted one deposition. So, on that front, I feel that finding my voice/footing as a lawyer has been challenging.

I understand that true biglaw shops are probably more demanding, but my thinking is that I lateral soon for the better training, more complex cases, more consistent work flow, etc. Anyone else in the South Florida market been in a similar spot? I would like to learn from and practice with the best attorneys, but I also see the benefits of sticking with midlaw. The uncertainty is torturous though. TIA for any helpful thoughts/replies.

[sflyr2016]

What’s billing the requirement? No sense in billing 2k+ and not getting paid market for it. If below and you feel you’ve got a good thing going, then don’t worry about “big law.”

Also, you’re not going to get more substantive experience at a satellite office.

[Anonymous User]

Are employee benefits broadly similar between the native firms and satellites in Miami?

[Anonymous User]

Is the best way to lateral into Miami by reaching out to partners directly rather than using a recruiter? I'm a 3rd year NY V30 associate in corporate (particularly general banking/lending, and capital markets. Not M&A or private equity) FWIW.