What good are alumni networks if they're all too busy to respond? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

The notion of replying earnestly to this thread, for eternity, is basically my personal vision of hell.

[AVBucks4239]

So you expect him to be able to take the hint and offer to pass your resume along, at the same time you're arguing you never made that direct request and so they couldn't have actually known that's what you wanted?

OK I realize there is some tension there, let me clarify.
If I make the general request "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next to learn more about... that we can agree is more or less standard in these interactions, and they respond:

1. "Hmmm let me think. Why don't you send me your resume and I'll see if there's anyone I can pass it to"--then they both responded at face value and took the hint. By took the hint I don't mean I deliberately try to couch a specific request ("can you pass my resume along") in a more general one. I mean I make the same general request each time, never anything more specific, and if they happen to respond as if I had asked the more specific requests, that'd be the ideal outcome from these alumni interactions, though of course not every meeting elicits this result.

2. "Yes, I knew a guy there, John Smith, let me see if I can find his email address"--then they've just responded at face value. From this there's no way to tell if the alum inferred "oh I see, you're really asking me ___, but I'll respond to your general inquiry as a polite way to decline the more specific request you left unsaid." In fact wouldn't you say it'd take some impressive mental gymnastics to read that interpretation into the alum's simple reply of "let me see if I can find John Smith's email"?

3. "I would, but they're busy billing"--I see it the same as #2. Basically, it'd only be clear that they understood me to be making a far more specific request if they actually grant that specific request as if I had made it. If they don't acknowledge it, then how am I--or anyone--to know if a) they did take the hint and politely declined or b) didn't, and simply responded at face value to the particular general question posed (as in #2)?

Assumptions in bold. The world does not exist in your neurotically pre-conceived scenarios.

[Anonymous User]

Assumptions in bold. The world does not exist in your neurotically pre-conceived scenarios.

OK, thanks for bolding my post, boss. Since I got the world all wrong, why don't you tell me how I'm supposed to tell whether the alum understood me to be making a more specific request if all they do on the surface is respond to the general request without calling me out on the specific request that I left unsaid?

[NotMyRealName09]

to be fair, it is a time honored tradition on tls to start a thread and:

1) ask for advice, but really be looking to be told you are right
2) ppl give the advice you asked for, but not the advice you wanted
3) argue with the ppl you sought advice from
4) slowly add or change details to the story to try to make ppl agree with u
5) start furiously lashing out at everyone replying to u
6) have nony continue patiently replying to u

ironically tho this thread started from op doing exactly this in real life, i think that is a new twist

This is really accurate. Good theories have predictive power, and this one totally works.

[AVBucks4239]

Assumptions in bold. The world does not exist in your neurotically pre-conceived scenarios.

OK, thanks for bolding my post, boss. Since I got the world all wrong, why don't you tell me how I'm supposed to tell whether the alum understood me to be making a more specific request if all they do on the surface is respond to the general request without calling me out on the specific request that I left unsaid?

You can tell by how they respond. If they like you and are comfortable referring you, they respond by accepting your resume and actually passing it along to someone. If they don't like you, don't trust you, or don't feel comfortable recommending you, they respond by making up some excuse or giving an ambiguous answer so they aren't bound by a promise to send it along. Then nothing happens and you essentially wasted your time and/or actually limited your potential network (no impression is better than meeting someone and making a bad impression).


As an aside, I'm meeting with a fellow high school alum tonight who was 4-5 years younger than I am (I graduated with his sister). He just took the bar in July. Here was his initial email:

Hey Adam,

This is Jeff [Last Name]. Been a while - how are you? I hear you bought the house [in neighborhood]?

Anyway, reason for the email: I just took the bar, and the whole process just ruined my outlook on life and the legal profession (not literally but you know what I mean). I'm having the usual bar exam PTSD.

If you ever have a minute to spare, I'd love to hear about your experience and just ask you a couple questions about the bar. Thanks. Go bucks.

Jeff

This is obviously a little informal considering that we vaguely know each other, but it's short, to the point, funny, took an interest in things about me, let me schedule it on my terms, etc. I can tell this is going to be a casual meeting over beers and not an interrogation. So I said yes and set up a meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Anonymous User]

Assumptions in bold. The world does not exist in your neurotically pre-conceived scenarios.

OK, thanks for bolding my post, boss. Since I got the world all wrong, why don't you tell me how I'm supposed to tell whether the alum understood me to be making a more specific request if all they do on the surface is respond to the general request without calling me out on the specific request that I left unsaid?

You can tell by how they respond. If they like you and are comfortable referring you, they respond by accepting your resume and actually passing it along to someone. If they don't like you, don't trust you, or don't feel comfortable recommending you, they respond by making up some excuse or giving an ambiguous answer so they aren't bound by a promise to send it along. Then nothing happens and you essentially wasted your time and/or actually limited your potential network (no impression is better than meeting someone and making a bad impression).

Hey Adam,

This is Jeff [Last Name]. Been a while - how are you? I hear you bought the house [in neighborhood]?

Anyway, reason for the email: I just took the bar, and the whole process just ruined my outlook on life and the legal profession (not literally but you know what I mean). I'm having the usual bar exam PTSD.

If you ever have a minute to spare, I'd love to hear about your experience and just ask you a couple questions about the bar. Thanks. Go bucks.

Jeff

This is obviously a little informal considering that we vaguely know each other, but it's short, to the point, funny, took an interest in things about me, let me schedule it on my terms, etc. I can tell this is going to be a casual meeting over beers and not an interrogation. So I said yes and set up a meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

OK thanks for the illustration. But a few posts down from your earlier response, there was this exchange:

Except 95% of the meeting (before the last minute where I tried asking for referrals to other alums) went well. No awkward pauses, convo flowed well, etc. I was there for a good hour too (lunch break, I'm an intern at the alum's employer for the summer).

And most of my other alum meetings also go well--e.g., the other one where the alum tried to remember someone who could help but recollected aloud that they're all out of the law. That meeting too went for an hour+.

Just because the meeting may have gone well doesn't mean that person is comfortable recommending you. If I recommend someone for a job, or in any way attach my name to that person with even a hint of recommendation in a professional setting, I am 110% sure I'm comfortable doing so. If there is even the slightest doubt, I'm not doing it. The person may be a joy, but my professional reputation is vastly more important to me, and a huge part of being an attorney is people trusting your judgement.

By all indications during the meeting, my meeting with the OP alum went well. It's fine and well (and expected) if they don't know me well enough to pass me along, but why should I conclude from the fact that they didn't respond as I would've ideally hoped the additional inference that it must be some big excuse and that there must've been something wrong with how I conducted myself during the meeting?

[corp]

but why should I conclude from the fact that they didn't respond as I would've ideally hoped the additional inference that it must be some big excuse and that there must've been something wrong with how I conducted myself during the meeting?

because :

During the meeting, whenever I asked "do you suggest that I speak with any particular people at [Firm 1] or [Firm 2]," they kept returning to the same response: "I highly doubt it would help because they're busy etc...I think your time is better spent doing interview preparation."

And when I replied "I know most won't respond, but the few who do may be a great resource in finding out information unique to their firm," they'd just say "you can find that online on their websites!"

And I said "Well I'm thinking that that's the bare minimum the interviewer will expect you to have done" but eventually I just dropped it and move on.

Simply put : it is not because you perceive a meeting to go well "by all indications" that the people you met with also have that same perception of that meeting.

Plus, they might just have replied this to you not because of how that specific meeting went, but simply because they are, for whatever reason, not comfortable referring you to other attorneys or forwarding your resume. It might be your general profile, credentials, things they may have heard elsewhere, or a shady reason that is subjective to them.

Best thing to do is move on and stop dwelling on this.

[AVBucks4239]

By all indications during the meeting, my meeting with the OP alum went well. It's fine and well (and expected) if they don't know me well enough to pass me along, but why should I conclude from the fact that they didn't respond as I would've ideally hoped the additional inference that it must be some big excuse and that there must've been something wrong with how I conducted myself during the meeting?

We are just giving you advice based on our own personal experience, both as the law student and as the attorney.

Anecdote (because I love anecdotes): I met an attorney who graduated from Ohio State while playing racquetball at the local YMCA. This then turned to me shooting him an email to (a) ask to play again and (b) to maybe meet up. This then turned to lunch. Then I sent him my resume. Then he brought me in for an interview. Then I interned there. And now I work at his 20+ attorney firm.

Again, you can tell from his actions--he accepted a lunch invite, accepted my resume, passed my resume to the board of directors, was the big initiator in bringing me in for an interview, was my point of contact for my internship, and likely was a big force in me getting hired full time here. He and I are actually good friends now--we get beers quite often together--and he is in the process of transitioning his ERISA practice to me (assuming I'm competent enough to do it).

Note--I now know his severance depends on his "good faith" transitioning of his practice. So whoever he transitions to, he better trust that person. That person is me, and it's terrifying, but that's the level of trust we're dealing with here for someone to take the initiative like he did to bring me on board.

Put the shoe on the other foot...as an attorney, I've met with probably 3-4 students. I've only referred one: she was top 10% of her class at Akron, seemed very enthusiastic, etc. I referred her to a criminal law attorney who I knew was looking for help (he was also my baseball coach growing up), and she works at his firm now. I've met with a couple others and we did the whole meeting thing, but it just seemed like they were meeting me for the sake of meeting me for the sake of me passing their resume along. I didn't refer them to anyone.


To reiterate for the 50th time in this thread, you are looking at everything through your own preconceived paradigm. Stop doing that. Just because you thought the meetings went well doesn't mean they did.

Granted, I see your point--maybe you weren't awkward or whatever, maybe the meetings did go well, etc. But always focus on the actions. If they don't forward your resume, thank them for their time and move on.

This is just like finding a spouse--it only takes one. A bunch of girls think I'm a creep and look like an Italian smurf with Mike Tyson's nose, but one girl said yes. And that's all it takes.

[Paul Campos]

Suggested reading: http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/vie ... t=articles

[Anonymous User]

Plus, they might just have replied this to you not because of how that specific meeting went, but simply because they are, for whatever reason, not comfortable referring you to other attorneys or forwarding your resume. It might be your general profile, credentials, things they may have heard elsewhere, or a shady reason that is subjective to them.

Best thing to do is move on and stop dwelling on this.

OK well "move on and stop dwelling on this" isn't what I was hearing from the Powerball Predictors earlier, who suggested that I seek professional help on my being a walking personality disorder because "the fact that they 'refused' reflects poorly on you, it must be because you did something wrong/rubbed them the wrong way during the meeting."

One tells me to forget about it and move on; the other tells me that there's something to fix, when I don't think the alum would disagree with my perception that the meeting generally went well. If anything, they'd just tell me to do more work for them/develop more substantial relationships, not to fix any glaring personality disorders.

[Mr. Peanutbutter]

Suggested reading: http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/vie ... t=articles

[lavarman84]

He and I are actually good friends now--we get beers quite often together--and he is in the process of transitioning his ERISA practice to me (assuming I'm competent enough to do it).

I'm sorry.

[AVBucks4239]

He and I are actually good friends now--we get beers quite often together--and he is in the process of transitioning his ERISA practice to me (assuming I'm competent enough to do it).

I'm sorry.

It's half form work, half "holy fuck my client is the devil and I want to blow my brains out" work. Luckily this partner says it's never been more than 40% of his practice.

[LeDique]

don't u just write "look at my discretionary clause and shut up"

[lavarman84]

He and I are actually good friends now--we get beers quite often together--and he is in the process of transitioning his ERISA practice to me (assuming I'm competent enough to do it).

I'm sorry.

It's half form work, half "holy fuck my client is the devil and I want to blow my brains out" work. Luckily this partner says it's never been more than 40% of his practice.

So you're a lawyer?