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[Anonymous User]

How exactly does the lottery work? Can someone who bid a firm lower than you get their choice while you don't? Or is it just a lottery between those who ranked the firm in the same spot as you.

Yes, someone could bid 6th and get the firm you didn't get with your 3rd bid. Ask career services to double check.

But my understanding is that the lottery was analogous to career services pulling a name out of a hat—it's actually automated—and giving that name their first bid choice (with slots available). Name goes back in the hat, and they pick randomly again assigning the next selected name to the highest remaining firm (with slots left still) on the selected name's bidlist. This continues until all firm interview slots are filled or all bid preferences are exhausted (with Delaware and IP firms, there might even be more slots than bids). You can imagine how 20, 40, or even 60 spots can go really fast if your peers find a firm desirable.

You will not game the bidding system, so do not waste your time with intense game theory. Bid intelligently on firms you actually want to interview with and have a shot with.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with your bottom line about bidding intelligently, etc, but I had a slightly different understanding of the bidding. Perhaps I'm wrong, but let me explain further.

I didn't think it was possible for someone who bids a firm 6th to get it over someone who bids the same firm 3rd. I thought it was automated (like you said) but more like a draft (apologies for the irony). For example, take a popular firm like Weil. I thought the selection of the interviews proceeds randomly down everyone's first bid, then down the second, until all the Weil slots are all filled. Then, on the next firm–– say a firm like Skadden. I thought it randomly goes down the first bids (for day three), then everyone's second bid, until all the Skadden slots are done. Is this wrong? I assumed based on my conversation with Dean DeRosa, that this is what makes the bidding somewhat strategic. The kids at the top of the class can get screwed over someone in the middle if they're all putting Weil first on day one. The kid with the 3.9 may lose Weil if they put it second or third. Is this wrong??

Again, I agree with your bottom line, but would love a bit more clarity on the bidding system.

Clearly I'm screwed at OCI...

[Anonymous User]

Anon from top of the page.

You may be right. Your understanding would seem to be a fairer system, but that was not my understanding of the system. Everyone should ignore what I said and find out straight from the horse's mouth.

[Lavitz]

First anon is right. It goes by person--not by firm. You can get a firm you ranked 3rd even though someone who ranked it 2nd didn't get it. 6th > 3rd is rather extreme though.

[Anonymous User]

Care to explain more?

[runinthefront]

I agree with your bottom line about bidding intelligently, etc, but I had a slightly different understanding of the bidding. Perhaps I'm wrong, but let me explain further.

I didn't think it was possible for someone who bids a firm 6th to get it over someone who bids the same firm 3rd. I thought it was automated (like you said) but more like a draft (apologies for the irony). For example, take a popular firm like Weil. I thought the selection of the interviews proceeds randomly down everyone's first bid, then down the second, until all the Weil slots are all filled. Then, on the next firm–– say a firm like Skadden. I thought it randomly goes down the first bids (for day three), then everyone's second bid, until all the Skadden slots are done. Is this wrong? I assumed based on my conversation with Dean DeRosa, that this is what makes the bidding somewhat strategic. The kids at the top of the class can get screwed over someone in the middle if they're all putting Weil first on day one. The kid with the 3.9 may lose Weil if they put it second or third. Is this wrong??

Again, I agree with your bottom line, but would love a bit more clarity on the bidding system.

Clearly I'm screwed at OCI...

This is wrong. The person who explained it before you is right. Go back and redo your bids, particularly if this newfound information changes anything for you.

Care to explain more?

From my understanding, the "pulling names out of a hat" analogy is the best possible explanation. If you're pulling random names out of a hat and then putting the names back in, it's possible to pull Turlway 3x before pulling Osteen once, which is why some students get way more interviews than others.

The ultimate fairness (non-sarcasm)

[Lavitz]

Care to explain more?

If you bid a firm 6th and got it and someone else bid it 3rd and didn't get it, it means that: 1) you must've missed out on 2-3 of your top 5 bids, which would be rare, and/or 2) your name got pulled 4-6 times before the other person got pulled 3 times, which would also be rare. Not impossible--just not likely.

[Anonymous User]

So let me get this straight. If when my name gets pulled for the 3rd time, and my 3rd to 6th pick have already been filled up, my 3rd pick would be my 7th slot firm?

[runinthefront]

So let me get this straight. If when my name gets pulled for the 3rd time, and my 3rd to 6th pick have already been filled up, my 3rd pick would be my 7th slot firm?

Yes. My understanding is that this is how the lottery works. You would get your highest-bid firm still available.

[Lavitz]

From my understanding, the "pulling names out of a hat" analogy is the best possible explanation. If you're pulling random names out of a hat and then putting the names back in, it's possible to pull Turlway 3x before pulling Osteen once, which is why some students get way more interviews than others.

[deepseapartners]

Hey everyone, I'm really worried about the AJF cuz my GPA is a little low, I think it's like right at the Median or maybe slightly below... It's around 3.35. For brief non-GPA information about myself, I am an Asian-American (U.S. citizen), I speak 2 foreign languages in addition to English pretty well, I don't think i'm a terrific interviewer, but I think I'm above average/decent interviewer... I have some working experience (2 years of non-legal and 6 months of legal exp.) prior to law school, and working at a midlaw for my 1L summer. I think I'm leaning towards transaction at the moment, but not completely sure, because I'm doing mostly litigation work at the moment at my 1L summer-job, and enjoying it too. I think I want to go international though, because I have a pretty diverse international experience and I think my foreign language skills will be a bigger plus at a global law firm than a more domestic-focused law firms, but i'm open to contrary suggestions.

Please give me any advices on my AJF in general or in specific on my bidlist below.
Thank you everyone so much for all your help in advance!

1 Greenberg Traurig N/A; 20
2 Goodwin Poctor 3.37-3.58; 20
3 Pilsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman F.. 3.2~3.3 ; 20
4 Clifford Chance M. 3.45-3.58 100
5 Bryan Cave F.3.21-3.49; 20
6 Cooley LLP N/A; 20
7 Proskauer Rose M. 3.39~ 3.46; 40
8 Curtis, Mallet, Provost F. 3.1 ~3.3 5; 20
9 Morison & Foerster M. 3.56; 20 slots
10 Kaye Scholer M. 3.39-3.47; 20
11 Chadbourne and Parke LLP M. 3.45-3.58; 1-5 20
12 Schulte Roth & Zabel M. 3.52-3.59; 1-5, 20
13 Seward & Kissel F.3.21-3.49; 5, 20


TUESDAY_BIDDING Law Firm GPA # of interview slots
1 White&Case LLP DC N/A 20
2 Vinson & Elkins 3.35 20
3 Shearman & Sterling 3.48-3.54; 60
4 Hogan Lovells 3.45-3.6; 60
5 Dechert N/A; 40
6 Alston & Bird LLP 3.35; 5, 20
7 Winston & Strawn 3.42; 40
8 Holland & Knight 3.42-3.63; 1-5, 20
9 White&Case LLP NY 3.52-3.57; 5, 60
10 Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP 3.45; 80
11 Milbank, Tweed, Haley & McLoy LLP 3.65-3.67; 5, 40
17 Allen & Overy LLP 3.65; 20
12 Akin, Gump, Strauss 3.58; 40
13 Jones Day 3.55-3.6; 40
14 Paul Hastings LLP 3.55-3.62; 80
15 WilmerHale 3.;6 40

WEDNESDAY
1 Linklaters LLP 3.30-3.49; 40
2 Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe N/A; 20
3 Hughes Hubbard & Reed 3.09-3.22; 20
4 Herbert Smith Freehills N/A ; 20
5 K&L Gates 3.45; 20
6 Crowell & Moring 3.477; 20
7 Morgan Lewis & Bokius 3.38; 20
8 Kirkland & Ellis 3.57; 20
9 Reed Smith LLP 3.23-3.29; 20
10 Ropes & Grey 3.63; 20
11 Moses & Singer N/A; 20

You should flip Goodwin Proctor and CC from Monday, if you make no other changes to your list. Your background will put you ahead of your GPA at the Magic Circle, assuming average law student interviewing ability and that you are actually fluent in those two foreign languages (not a small chance someone will conduct an interview in one of those languages at a callback, so don't overestimate). You should also, not joking, write out your "story" before you interview with each firm. Your lower GPA, but international background, puts you in a unique position, and you should make sure to edit your "story" so as to maximize your position.

[Babum]

Hey everyone, I'm really worried about the AJF cuz my GPA is a little low, I think it's like right at the Median or maybe slightly below... It's around 3.35. For brief non-GPA information about myself, I am an Asian-American (U.S. citizen), I speak 2 foreign languages in addition to English pretty well, I don't think i'm a terrific interviewer, but I think I'm above average/decent interviewer... I have some working experience (2 years of non-legal and 6 months of legal exp.) prior to law school, and working at a midlaw for my 1L summer. I think I'm leaning towards transaction at the moment, but not completely sure, because I'm doing mostly litigation work at the moment at my 1L summer-job, and enjoying it too. I think I want to go international though, because I have a pretty diverse international experience and I think my foreign language skills will be a bigger plus at a global law firm than a more domestic-focused law firms, but i'm open to contrary suggestions.

Please give me any advices on my AJF in general or in specific on my bidlist below.
Thank you everyone so much for all your help in advance!

1 Greenberg Traurig N/A; 20
2 Goodwin Poctor 3.37-3.58; 20
3 Pilsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman F.. 3.2~3.3 ; 20
4 Clifford Chance M. 3.45-3.58 100
5 Bryan Cave F.3.21-3.49; 20
6 Cooley LLP N/A; 20
7 Proskauer Rose M. 3.39~ 3.46; 40
8 Curtis, Mallet, Provost F. 3.1 ~3.3 5; 20
9 Morison & Foerster M. 3.56; 20 slots
10 Kaye Scholer M. 3.39-3.47; 20
11 Chadbourne and Parke LLP M. 3.45-3.58; 1-5 20
12 Schulte Roth & Zabel M. 3.52-3.59; 1-5, 20
13 Seward & Kissel F.3.21-3.49; 5, 20


TUESDAY_BIDDING Law Firm GPA # of interview slots
1 White&Case LLP DC N/A 20
2 Vinson & Elkins 3.35 20
3 Shearman & Sterling 3.48-3.54; 60
4 Hogan Lovells 3.45-3.6; 60
5 Dechert N/A; 40
6 Alston & Bird LLP 3.35; 5, 20
7 Winston & Strawn 3.42; 40
8 Holland & Knight 3.42-3.63; 1-5, 20
9 White&Case LLP NY 3.52-3.57; 5, 60
10 Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP 3.45; 80
11 Milbank, Tweed, Haley & McLoy LLP 3.65-3.67; 5, 40
17 Allen & Overy LLP 3.65; 20
12 Akin, Gump, Strauss 3.58; 40
13 Jones Day 3.55-3.6; 40
14 Paul Hastings LLP 3.55-3.62; 80
15 WilmerHale 3.;6 40

WEDNESDAY
1 Linklaters LLP 3.30-3.49; 40
2 Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe N/A; 20
3 Hughes Hubbard & Reed 3.09-3.22; 20
4 Herbert Smith Freehills N/A ; 20
5 K&L Gates 3.45; 20
6 Crowell & Moring 3.477; 20
7 Morgan Lewis & Bokius 3.38; 20
8 Kirkland & Ellis 3.57; 20
9 Reed Smith LLP 3.23-3.29; 20
10 Ropes & Grey 3.63; 20
11 Moses & Singer N/A; 20

You should flip Goodwin Proctor and CC from Monday, if you make no other changes to your list. Your background will put you ahead of your GPA at the Magic Circle, assuming average law student interviewing ability and that you are actually fluent in those two foreign languages (not a small chance someone will conduct an interview in one of those languages at a callback, so don't overestimate). You should also, not joking, write out your "story" before you interview with each firm. Your lower GPA, but international background, puts you in a unique position, and you should make sure to edit your "story" so as to maximize your position.

One of my interviewers asked me a couple questions in Spanish (which I have in my resume), so don't be surprised if it happens.

[Anonymous User]

When do lottery results come out?

[Lavitz]

When do lottery results come out?

Looks like Friday.

7/1: Schedules Available for AJF/BOJF/DCJF

[HatGuy1256]

OK

[Anonymous User]

I got 14 screeners…average?

[Lavitz]

I got 14 screeners…average?

Pretty much. Poll from last year:

[Anonymous User]

I have a 3.5 and my Monday is all V10 firms .2 above my GPA average. How lucky can one get with a great interview if they prep., etc.? I'm pretty set on D.C. so I can take more of a risk with NYC. I just thought I'd try to get some realistic sense of what to expect. I'm not set on litigation or corp. and am just considering what reputable firm I can maybe summer with.

1/7 is all I need I suppose. Am I screwed? What advice can anyone offer?

[runinthefront]

I have a 3.5 and my Monday is all V10 firms .2 above my GPA average. How lucky can one get with a great interview if they prep., etc.? I'm pretty set on D.C. so I can take more of a risk with NYC. I just thought I'd try to get some realistic sense of what to expect. I'm not set on litigation or corp. and am just considering what reputable firm I can maybe summer with.

1/7 is all I need I suppose. Am I screwed? What advice can anyone offer?

Your Monday list is on the higher end of "risk." You may be able to snag a Weil/Latham/Kirkland callback, but I wouldn't expect any bites from the rest, absent compelling circumstances (that's not to say you can't be the special snowflake! There are many each year.) Preparation is more valuable than luck, though. Practice interviewing, know your resume cold (including understanding any weak spots on your resume and how to address it), and show up to AJF polished. Also, try talking to current summers, former summers, and junior associates at the firms you're interviewing with on Monday.

I don't understand what you mean by being "set on D.C. so I can take more of a risk with NYC," though.

[tyrant_flycatcher]

I have a 3.5 and my Monday is all V10 firms .2 above my GPA average. How lucky can one get with a great interview if they prep., etc.? I'm pretty set on D.C. so I can take more of a risk with NYC. I just thought I'd try to get some realistic sense of what to expect. I'm not set on litigation or corp. and am just considering what reputable firm I can maybe summer with.

1/7 is all I need I suppose. Am I screwed? What advice can anyone offer?

Your GPA isn't high enough to bank on DC, especially when you don't appear to be treating NY as a safety net. If I were you, I would reach out to every firm you bid on but didn't get a screener with, and ask whether they can fit in an interview with you.

[Anonymous User]

If you're not really set on corporate or litigation, how do you realistically evaluate the firms you're meeting with? I've had a few early interviews and have secured two callbacks from Cornell-favorite firms, but I still don't know what to "look for." All the firms pay the same, they all have great offices, is "culture" the thing to consider?

Apart from NALP, Chambers, and talking to summers/young associates, what else do you recommend for evaluating a firm if you lack a strong preference for practice group? Also, regarding the areas within a firm, how does one get a sense of the work within various areas of a firm that 1Ls have less exposure to (bankruptcy, M&A, tax, etc.).

[Babum]

If you're not really set on corporate or litigation, how do you realistically evaluate the firms you're meeting with? I've had a few early interviews and have secured two callbacks from Cornell-favorite firms, but I still don't know what to "look for." All the firms pay the same, they all have great offices, is "culture" the thing to consider?

Apart from NALP, Chambers, and talking to summers/young associates, what else do you recommend for evaluating a firm if you lack a strong preference for practice group? Also, regarding the areas within a firm, how does one get a sense of the work within various areas of a firm that 1Ls have less exposure to (bankruptcy, M&A, tax, etc.).

A big one would be : did you like the people you interviewed with?

For the more obscure departments, i'd wait until I start at the firm and ask that department for exposure .

[King Cayuga]

If you're not really set on corporate or litigation, how do you realistically evaluate the firms you're meeting with? I've had a few early interviews and have secured two callbacks from Cornell-favorite firms, but I still don't know what to "look for." All the firms pay the same, they all have great offices, is "culture" the thing to consider?

Apart from NALP, Chambers, and talking to summers/young associates, what else do you recommend for evaluating a firm if you lack a strong preference for practice group? Also, regarding the areas within a firm, how does one get a sense of the work within various areas of a firm that 1Ls have less exposure to (bankruptcy, M&A, tax, etc.).

If you want to find out more about what certain practice groups do, then you can start by reading the pracrice area summaries on Chambers and Associates:

http://www.chambers-associate.com/practice-areas

Beyond that, you can reach out to former Cornell students at firms you're looking at and ask them both about the kind of work they do and about their firm in general. Knowing something about a firm and/or the practice group(s) you express interest in helps in interviews.

And yes, there are demonstrable differences in firm culture even though biglaw is very similar in many ways across the V100. You'll probably get a sense of this from how your callbacks go. If the firm you're interviewing with can't even find four people to put in front of you who don't look like they hate their lives, then that's probably a pretty big red flag. Reading about the firm on Vault and Chambers is somewhat helpful, although the blurbs there are largely whitewashed and therefore limited in their usefulness.

[Lavitz]

Culture is important.

Second, culture matters. It may seem like firms are all the same and that there are no differences between PPP, who's done layoffs, logos, main practice areas, and that stuff. I know that feeling, having started from scratch preparing for OCI myself last year. But if you read carefully enough and talk to the right people, you can and will see differences that are pretty substantial as far as how these firms feel on the inside. When you're working at a firm 50, 60, 70 hours a week, the culture there matters a lot. A firm that's in the V10 is of no use to you if the culture doesn't fit (e.g. a shy person who doesn't like conflict probably shouldn't work at Kirkland). Other firms are known for having terrible internal morale, either judge because the place is poorly managed, if waves upon waves of layoffs are crashing upon the staff and associate ranks, or because partners insist on ridiculous face time requirements. Finding out about culture is hard, but the rewards for doing so are large enough that you really ought to try.

[Lavitz]

I have a 3.5 and my Monday is all V10 firms .2 above my GPA average. How lucky can one get with a great interview if they prep., etc.? I'm pretty set on D.C. so I can take more of a risk with NYC. I just thought I'd try to get some realistic sense of what to expect. I'm not set on litigation or corp. and am just considering what reputable firm I can maybe summer with.

1/7 is all I need I suppose. Am I screwed? What advice can anyone offer?

Like the others, I find this post extremely confusing.

How high you can punch above your gpa has been beaten to death in this thread. It's possible if you do the things runinthefront said, and it would help if you have something special going for you.

If you aren't sure that you have something special going for you, I have no idea why you bid so that your entire Monday is all firms .2 above your GPA. As has been mentioned, bidding only on top NYC firms because you're "set on" another market and presumably you'd go to NYC instead only if you got a top firm would be fine...if it weren't for the fact that you have a 3.5 and DC is possibly the most grade selective market in the country. It's certainly possible to get one of the less selective DC firms with your grades, but it's not something you should count on to the point where you've forgone interviews with less selective NYC firms as a backup.

Also, what do you mean 1/7? You can't possibly have only 7 screeners total. Is that just all the screeners on Monday? All the NYC firms? All the DC firms? It would be nice if we knew what exactly you did here...

I have no actual advice other than to implore you to do what runinthefront said. If you really want DC biglaw, you need to hustle. Now. And do the same for less selective NYC firms. It would be better career-wise to have an SA in NYC and then try to switch to a DC office later, than to strike out and take some non-biglaw internship in DC.