1st year major market Corp - Consistently doing shitty job Forum

[Nomo]

I wonder if the issues you're describing are a result of boredom. Most people struggle to pay attention, take care of details, and understand mildly complex issues when they are bored. Some people are able to fight through boredom better than others. But a lot of people can't do decent work if they can't get interested in their work.

[Anonymous User]

Not OP, but a related question. How bad is it to be kicked off one project for reasons like those OP mentioned? I was working for an associate who had me removed, because my work product sucked and the personalities didn't mesh. t had been fine for the first few weeks on this assignment, but think I burnt out a few weeks in. The worst part was my sloppiness was perceived as being indicative of a general disrespect towards the associate and the work. When first confronted about it, I started getting very stressed and I've always used humor to cope with stress. This only made it worse, and got me thrown off the team.

It hasn't effected the work I've gotten but I have no idea how large of an impact this has, how many people know and whether I should be looking at lateral options. I really like my firm and all the people I've worked with. The truth is I also really like the associate who had me kicked off, because they're brilliant and intensely driven, and I respect the hell out of that even though I don't have that same intensity. So far I haven't really confronted the issue, and have only tried to forget about it while still being very friendly to the associate to make it less likely that they will publicize my failures on that assignment. However, I worry that putting my head in the sand might be the wrong approach, and that I'm in more trouble than I realize.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Not OP, but a related question. How bad is it to be kicked off one project for reasons like those OP mentioned? I was working for an associate who had me removed, because my work product sucked and the personalities didn't mesh. t had been fine for the first few weeks on this assignment, but think I burnt out a few weeks in. The worst part was my sloppiness was perceived as being indicative of a general disrespect towards the associate and the work. When first confronted about it, I started getting very stressed and I've always used humor to cope with stress. This only made it worse, and got me thrown off the team.

It hasn't effected the work I've gotten but I have no idea how large of an impact this has, how many people know and whether I should be looking at lateral options. I really like my firm and all the people I've worked with. The truth is I also really like the associate who had me kicked off, because they're brilliant and intensely driven, and I respect the hell out of that even though I don't have that same intensity. So far I haven't really confronted the issue, and have only tried to forget about it while still being very friendly to the associate to make it less likely that they will publicize my failures on that assignment. However, I worry that putting my head in the sand might be the wrong approach, and that I'm in more trouble than I realize.

Hard to say... this is obviously not great, but in my experience junior folks can usually get a mulligan for stuff like this, depending on the severity of the issues, personalities involved, culture of your office/group, how busy the firm is, etc. etc.

[zot1]

Y'all make me feel thankful that I'm not in BigLaw.

[deepseapartners]

OP are you somebody who would make a credible discrimination claim?

unclear, its pretty widely known im Mormon

Even if you feel like you can resolve this issue, which seems unlikely based on what you've described, I would begin the lateral process immediately. Time for a nu start.

Also, this may be an unpopular opinion, but I think that when you move to your next firm, you should make it less well-known that you are a Mormon. You are probably working against the presumption that you are, at best, a bigoted happy-only drone. This may be just because I lived in suburban Utah for 7 years and went to a 98% Mormon high school, but I am initially prejudiced against Mormons because I know what they believe and how they are raised to act. Not everyone is like this, but it is probably weird that you never go get coffee with your fellow juniors, or drink at social events, and that you try hard to not work on Sundays.

[krads153]

Not OP, but a related question. How bad is it to be kicked off one project for reasons like those OP mentioned? I was working for an associate who had me removed, because my work product sucked and the personalities didn't mesh. t had been fine for the first few weeks on this assignment, but think I burnt out a few weeks in. The worst part was my sloppiness was perceived as being indicative of a general disrespect towards the associate and the work. When first confronted about it, I started getting very stressed and I've always used humor to cope with stress. This only made it worse, and got me thrown off the team.

It hasn't effected the work I've gotten but I have no idea how large of an impact this has, how many people know and whether I should be looking at lateral options. I really like my firm and all the people I've worked with. The truth is I also really like the associate who had me kicked off, because they're brilliant and intensely driven, and I respect the hell out of that even though I don't have that same intensity. So far I haven't really confronted the issue, and have only tried to forget about it while still being very friendly to the associate to make it less likely that they will publicize my failures on that assignment. However, I worry that putting my head in the sand might be the wrong approach, and that I'm in more trouble than I realize.

Hard to say... this is obviously not great, but in my experience junior folks can usually get a mulligan for stuff like this, depending on the severity of the issues, personalities involved, culture of your office/group, how busy the firm is, etc. etc.

I'd say that if you're still getting staffed and are reasonably busy, then you're probably fine. Also certain associates just have hard-to-work-for reputations (if this associate is "intensely driven, maybe they are one of those). If the associate who removed you is one of those, then you're likely fine.

[krads153]

Y'all make me feel thankful that I'm not in BigLaw.

A lot of the shit in biglaw you just have to let roll off your back, unless you are in it for the long haul. Lots of people are gossipy, insecure (in part I think because a good portion of people have debt).

But OP's situation sounds worse than others (getting the talk 3 months in or whatever), so I'd likely start looking to lateral. It may take awhile as a first year, no harm in looking now. Maybe even change geography?

[cheaptilts]

I don't think anyone is arguing the likelihood/probability of being shitcanned. The point is whether it's worth the risk to wait and see

[cheaptilts]

Y'all make me feel thankful that I'm not in BigLaw.

outside of working in the gov, what job would consistently let you turn in poor workproduct (maybe) and then give you 3 months to transition out?

[krads153]

I don't think anyone is arguing the likelihood/probability of being shitcanned. The point is whether it's worth the risk to wait and see

As a first year, no it's not worth it to wait. If he were a midlevel, I'd say maybe it doesn't matter if he waits since midlevel hiring is up and lots of midlevels quit for no job anyway and somehow end up back in law.

[zot1]

Y'all make me feel thankful that I'm not in BigLaw.

outside of working in the gov, what job would consistently let you turn in poor workproduct (maybe) and then give you 3 months to transition out?

1. I highly disagree with the implication that government allows to consistently turn in poor work product.

2. I agree that if you turn in poor work product, you should be fired no matter the field. I mean, you are getting paid to do something.

3. I wasn't just referring to OP's problems. Other people have chimed in with their own problems.

4. If my boss has a problem with my work product, we discuss it so I can improve/fix it. There's less of the "omg I got kicked out of this team for doing something wrong not sure if everyone hates me now" type of mentality.

5. Perhaps that's what "the talk" with OP was trying to accomplish. But it still seems, based on everyone's comments, that there's less communication and if there is some, it doesn't even come straight from the person that has a problem with you.

[Anonymous User]

Not OP, but a related question. How bad is it to be kicked off one project for reasons like those OP mentioned? I was working for an associate who had me removed, because my work product sucked and the personalities didn't mesh. t had been fine for the first few weeks on this assignment, but think I burnt out a few weeks in. The worst part was my sloppiness was perceived as being indicative of a general disrespect towards the associate and the work. When first confronted about it, I started getting very stressed and I've always used humor to cope with stress. This only made it worse, and got me thrown off the team.

It hasn't effected the work I've gotten but I have no idea how large of an impact this has, how many people know and whether I should be looking at lateral options. I really like my firm and all the people I've worked with. The truth is I also really like the associate who had me kicked off, because they're brilliant and intensely driven, and I respect the hell out of that even though I don't have that same intensity. So far I haven't really confronted the issue, and have only tried to forget about it while still being very friendly to the associate to make it less likely that they will publicize my failures on that assignment. However, I worry that putting my head in the sand might be the wrong approach, and that I'm in more trouble than I realize.

Hard to say... this is obviously not great, but in my experience junior folks can usually get a mulligan for stuff like this, depending on the severity of the issues, personalities involved, culture of your office/group, how busy the firm is, etc. etc.

I'd say that if you're still getting staffed and are reasonably busy, then you're probably fine. Also certain associates just have hard-to-work-for reputations (if this associate is "intensely driven, maybe they are one of those). If the associate who removed you is one of those, then you're likely fine.

I should say by consistent work it's really only a few assignments I got increasing responsibility on. I don't know what happens when they finish. My work product turns based on the team I'm on, which isn't good and makes it look intentional even though it's not. For whatever reason my motivation to do more than a pretty good job comes from feeling I'm on a team, and wanting to make the team and the people on the team look good. If it's just me the extent of my motivation is to not get fired.

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Anonymous User]

For those that know, is there any chance that OP's situation is merely a smokescreen for a lack of business coming in to the firm? (i.e., They need to shed some first-years?)

Almost certainly not. Look at the latest round of biglaw lawyoffs (45 attorneys at Reed Smith). Almost all of the dead were senior associates or service partners. Firms are at least as likely to want to cut senior associates who don't bring in business but cost a lot more than first years. I think OP's situation can safely be taken at face value: Bad work, and a bad first impression.

Bad first impressions are just about impossible to surmount. A story for flavor: I started at my current firm in September after finishing a clerkship. The summer before I got there, a summer associate apparently pissed off a bunch of other associates. Nothing nuclear, just annoying behavior and a few summer associate mishaps (getting the wrong conclusion in a memo, taking too long, etc.) She did end up getting an offer, but when she came back to start everyone was ready for her to fail from day one. I had never met her, but heard that I shouldn't give her work. The deck was stacked against her from day one. I honestly didn't think she was that bad, but there was essentially nothing to be done about it. She started in September and left that December for another firm, and it was probably best for all parties.

OP, get out of there, and go quickly. Realistically, the best option is that you're going to be slowly frozen out, meaning you'll start to see work dry up and in 6-12 months you'll be let go for not making hours. The other option is that you'll be fired for performance issues any minute. Moreover, even if you aren't fired (which seems unlikely), you're not succeeding, and you should go somewhere you can succeed. Maybe change practice groups.

If you're Mormon, maybe bail to Salt Lake or Boise. I bet a firm there would love to have someone with T14/V50 on their resume, and the move would seem plausible because of the religion angle so you can fudge ties to the area a bit. The bottom line is that you need to happen to your life; do not wait until life happens to you.

[dailygrind]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

[petepilsh]

For those that know, is there any chance that OP's situation is merely a smokescreen for a lack of business coming in to the firm? (i.e., They need to shed some first-years?)

Almost certainly not. Look at the latest round of biglaw lawyoffs (45 attorneys at Reed Smith). Almost all of the dead were senior associates or service partners. Firms are at least as likely to want to cut senior associates who don't bring in business but cost a lot more than first years. I think OP's situation can safely be taken at face value: Bad work, and a bad first impression.

Bad first impressions are just about impossible to surmount. A story for flavor: I started at my current firm in September after finishing a clerkship. The summer before I got there, a summer associate apparently pissed off a bunch of other associates. Nothing nuclear, just annoying behavior and a few summer associate mishaps (getting the wrong conclusion in a memo, taking too long, etc.) She did end up getting an offer, but when she came back to start everyone was ready for her to fail from day one. I had never met her, but heard that I shouldn't give her work. The deck was stacked against her from day one. I honestly didn't think she was that bad, but there was essentially nothing to be done about it. She started in September and left that December for another firm, and it was probably best for all parties.

OP, get out of there, and go quickly. Realistically, the best option is that you're going to be slowly frozen out, meaning you'll start to see work dry up and in 6-12 months you'll be let go for not making hours. The other option is that you'll be fired for performance issues any minute. Moreover, even if you aren't fired (which seems unlikely), you're not succeeding, and you should go somewhere you can succeed. Maybe change practice groups.

If you're Mormon, maybe bail to Salt Lake or Boise. I bet a firm there would love to have someone with T14/V50 on their resume, and the move would seem plausible because of the religion angle so you can fudge ties to the area a bit. The bottom line is that you need to happen to your life; do not wait until life happens to you.

Anon Op: Do you think part of the problem is because co-workers know you are Mormon? I understand the attention to detail oriented mistakes aren't a part of this, but they could be increased by this. Not sure. I don't know too many Mormons.

[20160810]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

[dailygrind]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

[20160810]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

I still suffer from sleep fapnea and it hasn't impacted my job performance much.

It has effected my sheets though. Like sleeping between two pieces of plywood.

[dailygrind]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

I still suffer from sleep fapnea and it hasn't impacted my job performance much.

It has effected my sheets though. Like sleeping between two pieces of plywood.

Sounds like a monastic lifestyle.

[seespotrun]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

Maybe it's possible that he can overcome his bad rep, but it's very unlikely because of the bolded. The only play here is for him to do everything he can to get out of there.

[20160810]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

I still suffer from sleep fapnea and it hasn't impacted my job performance much.

It has effected my sheets though. Like sleeping between two pieces of plywood.

Sounds like a monastic lifestyle.

More like onanistic

[dailygrind]

More like onanistic

And here we have the masterpiece Monanista, created by the late 21st century artist SBL.

[cheaptilts]

I think it's possible to fix your rep, but it's a big hurdle. Once your rep's down your work will be scrutinized more carefully and every minor mistake will reinforce your bad rep. I think it takes a lot of concentrated, intelligent effort to turn around. Definitely something you should be trying to do, tho.

This assumes the rep isn't deserved. I think it's pretty clear he's bad at this job and in over his head. Rather than flailing around in the deep end until he drowns, I think he should switch to a smaller firm somewhere and maybe switch to litigation or another practice area.

Dude had sleep apnea, which he subsequently fixed. It's entirely possible he can turn this around. First years in general have no substantive skills - if he learns quickly enough to have like minimal substantive skills he'll be ahead of the pack.

Maybe it's possible that he can overcome his bad rep, but it's very unlikely because of the bolded. The only play here is for him to do everything he can to get out of there.

I think the risk of getting shitcanned is what's going over the heads of many. Like, sure, maybe OP only has a 25% chance of being fired in the next 6 months, but is that risk low enough to justify abstaining from trying to lateral? If OP's shitcanned for poor performance, OP's done.

[20160810]

More like onanistic

And here we have the masterpiece Monanista, created by the late 21st century artist SBL.

It's really kind of a Jackson Pollock ripoff.