Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[krads153]

^ ok, but still, no undergrad debt (likely out of many undergrads) + cs/eecs degree + relatively higher employment prospects + average 66k salary + greater mobility in the market + higher QOL > > > 150k debt or more out of law school + 3 years opportunity cost + 50% employed in the field (if that) + lower average salary

If you can hack programming, it's on average a much better option than law.

[Abbie Doobie]

do people generally graduate w/o debt from ee/cs? seems like most people i graduated with had ~$40k-$80k debt upon graduation. i came out with debit in the upper end of that range even after a decent scholarship.

[krads153]

do people generally graduate w/o debt from ee/cs? seems like most people i graduated with had ~$40k-$80k debt upon graduation. i came out with debit in the upper end of that range even after a decent scholarship.

most people I know had no undergrad debt (either from scholly, parents, or need based aid). most of these kids were just middle class. a lot of parents will pay for undergrad but not grad school. i had no debt due to scholly and parents. if they hadn't paid the remainder, i would have just taken a full ride somewhere else.

[Abbie Doobie]

do people generally graduate w/o debt from ee/cs? seems like most people i graduated with had ~$40k-$80k debt upon graduation. i came out with debit in the upper end of that range even after a decent scholarship.

most people I know had no undergrad debt (either from scholly, parents, or need based aid). most of these kids were just middle class. a lot of parents will pay for undergrad but not grad school. i had no debt due to scholly and parents. if they hadn't paid the remainder, i would have just taken a full ride somewhere else.

damn, must be nice. my parents didn't give me a dime for school .

[patentlitigatrix]

do people generally graduate w/o debt from ee/cs? seems like most people i graduated with had ~$40k-$80k debt upon graduation. i came out with debit in the upper end of that range even after a decent scholarship.

most people I know had no undergrad debt (either from scholly, parents, or need based aid). most of these kids were just middle class. a lot of parents will pay for undergrad but not grad school. i had no debt due to scholly and parents. if they hadn't paid the remainder, i would have just taken a full ride somewhere else.

Tend to agree with this, but my experience might be old (like me). I went to an inexpensive state school a decade ago, so most of engineering classmates who did have debt had minimal debt. I got out without debt with athletic scholarships, need-based aid, academic scholarships, and having a variety of jobs both on and off campus.

[Johann]

You are thinking about tech wrong. It's actually more of a job where the more coding there is and coding completed, the more programming is needed. Just look at the s-curve of technology. And also lol at first movers, the salary keeps going up and up and up. Law isn't dead because there are too many lawyers. Law is dead because it's not needed anymore and clients know that so they won't pay the bills.

All areas of the labor market are governed by supply and demand. The demand for programmers, while growing, is not infinite. Low barriers to entry mean supply growth will keep up with demand group over the medium to long term. Booms don't last forever for a reason. Going back to the early 00's, there were plenty of tech types (including programmers) who fell in hard times after demand suddenly collapsed.

Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing. I am a client, and we absolutely still pay our lawyers. The issue is an oversupply of lawyers, especially at the entry level and in non-specialty practice areas (i.e. general commercial litigation). There's still plenty of demand and low supply for very senior and specialized lawyers. That's why the $5 million a year partner exists.

Yeah well you are mistaken in thinking there is a finite demand then. Coding and technology is the opposite of that. Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing compared to 2008 and 2010. Demand since 1995/2000 is way down.

Just look at the salaries of lawyer. In the past 10-15 years real inflation adjusted comp is down 20-30% in biglaw and 50%+ in shitlaw/govt/other legal secotrs. Demand is drying up. The more and more tech created the more and more tech needed. I mean sure eventually it might dry up in probably hundreds of years but anyone taking the legal field over the programming field is insane if you are looking at the next 50 years. Comp is skyrocketing; the number of coders content creators has probably gone up 10,000% in the last 10 years; salaries have probably roughly doubled and the top end salaries have gone up 10,000%+ too. You can make $40 million now in that field. It's just mind boggling people actually think it's close to a discussion.

If you want to compare law to other positions maybe nursing, engineering, being a teacher, professor, HR, are worthwhile comparisons.

[krads153]

do people generally graduate w/o debt from ee/cs? seems like most people i graduated with had ~$40k-$80k debt upon graduation. i came out with debit in the upper end of that range even after a decent scholarship.

most people I know had no undergrad debt (either from scholly, parents, or need based aid). most of these kids were just middle class. a lot of parents will pay for undergrad but not grad school. i had no debt due to scholly and parents. if they hadn't paid the remainder, i would have just taken a full ride somewhere else.

damn, must be nice. my parents didn't give me a dime for school .

my parents gave me an ultimatum - go to my alma mater or take one of the full rides I had. they said they'd only pay for my alma mater, and that was better than the full ride schools, so i went there. not that i'm complaining, since it was the best school i had applied to, but it's their money,their rules.

[dissonance1848]

JohannDeMann? Yes, the legal field is stagnating and the lower end is in decline, but to say that tech is a great field is to ignore reality. Just do a Google search on ageism in tech, the current bubble which will implode sooner rather than later (thanks Federal Reserve! ), the absurd cost of living that is SF and the Bay Area, the nonexistent odds of striking it rich through a startup, working 60-80 hour weeks with little room for upward advancement (experience is a liability in tech, it just represents higher costs to employers, not greater value added), etc.

Salaries in tech are down from the dotcom bubble as well, its just that there are still some jobs out there, and the burn outs and failures don't come out of the woodwork.

[nealric]

You are thinking about tech wrong. It's actually more of a job where the more coding there is and coding completed, the more programming is needed. Just look at the s-curve of technology. And also lol at first movers, the salary keeps going up and up and up. Law isn't dead because there are too many lawyers. Law is dead because it's not needed anymore and clients know that so they won't pay the bills.

All areas of the labor market are governed by supply and demand. The demand for programmers, while growing, is not infinite. Low barriers to entry mean supply growth will keep up with demand group over the medium to long term. Booms don't last forever for a reason. Going back to the early 00's, there were plenty of tech types (including programmers) who fell in hard times after demand suddenly collapsed.

Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing. I am a client, and we absolutely still pay our lawyers. The issue is an oversupply of lawyers, especially at the entry level and in non-specialty practice areas (i.e. general commercial litigation). There's still plenty of demand and low supply for very senior and specialized lawyers. That's why the $5 million a year partner exists.

Yeah well you are mistaken in thinking there is a finite demand then. Coding and technology is the opposite of that. Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing compared to 2008 and 2010. Demand since 1995/2000 is way down.

Just look at the salaries of lawyer. In the past 10-15 years real inflation adjusted comp is down 20-30% in biglaw and 50%+ in shitlaw/govt/other legal secotrs. Demand is drying up. The more and more tech created the more and more tech needed. I mean sure eventually it might dry up in probably hundreds of years but anyone taking the legal field over the programming field is insane if you are looking at the next 50 years. Comp is skyrocketing; the number of coders content creators has probably gone up 10,000% in the last 10 years; salaries have probably roughly doubled and the top end salaries have gone up 10,000%+ too. You can make $40 million now in that field. It's just mind boggling people actually think it's close to a discussion.

If you want to compare law to other positions maybe nursing, engineering, being a teacher, professor, HR, are worthwhile comparisons.

Entry level salaries are down in biglaw. I'm not talking about entry level salaries. Profits per partner are WAY up. The issue is not demand for legal services overall, it's demand for low-level legal services and high supply of entry level lawyers.

If there were infinite demand for coders, salaries would essentially be infinite. And I don't see any real change in coding salaires since the first tech boom in the 90s. I suppose you could call Bill Gates a coder. He made $80 billion almost exclusively based on work performed in the 80s and 90s. But his reality has absolutely nothing to do with someone fresh out of a code academy. Might as well say insurance salesmen make billions because Warren Buffet is an insurance salesman.

[mirage1287]

You are thinking about tech wrong. It's actually more of a job where the more coding there is and coding completed, the more programming is needed. Just look at the s-curve of technology. And also lol at first movers, the salary keeps going up and up and up. Law isn't dead because there are too many lawyers. Law is dead because it's not needed anymore and clients know that so they won't pay the bills.

All areas of the labor market are governed by supply and demand. The demand for programmers, while growing, is not infinite. Low barriers to entry mean supply growth will keep up with demand group over the medium to long term. Booms don't last forever for a reason. Going back to the early 00's, there were plenty of tech types (including programmers) who fell in hard times after demand suddenly collapsed.

Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing. I am a client, and we absolutely still pay our lawyers. The issue is an oversupply of lawyers, especially at the entry level and in non-specialty practice areas (i.e. general commercial litigation). There's still plenty of demand and low supply for very senior and specialized lawyers. That's why the $5 million a year partner exists.

Yeah well you are mistaken in thinking there is a finite demand then. Coding and technology is the opposite of that. Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing compared to 2008 and 2010. Demand since 1995/2000 is way down.

Just look at the salaries of lawyer. In the past 10-15 years real inflation adjusted comp is down 20-30% in biglaw and 50%+ in shitlaw/govt/other legal secotrs. Demand is drying up. The more and more tech created the more and more tech needed. I mean sure eventually it might dry up in probably hundreds of years but anyone taking the legal field over the programming field is insane if you are looking at the next 50 years. Comp is skyrocketing; the number of coders content creators has probably gone up 10,000% in the last 10 years; salaries have probably roughly doubled and the top end salaries have gone up 10,000%+ too. You can make $40 million now in that field. It's just mind boggling people actually think it's close to a discussion.

If you want to compare law to other positions maybe nursing, engineering, being a teacher, professor, HR, are worthwhile comparisons.

Entry level salaries are down in biglaw. I'm not talking about entry level salaries. Profits per partner are WAY up. The issue is not demand for legal services overall, it's demand for low-level legal services and high supply of entry level lawyers.

If there were infinite demand for coders, salaries would essentially be infinite. And I don't see any real change in coding salaires since the first tech boom in the 90s. I suppose you could call Bill Gates a coder. He made $80 billion almost exclusively based on work performed in the 80s and 90s. But his reality has absolutely nothing to do with someone fresh out of a code academy. Might as well say insurance salesmen make billions because Warren Buffet is an insurance salesman.

You're missing the fact that coders get the majority of their upside from equity and/or RSUs in public companies. This can be worth much, much more than a base salary. Sure, most startups/private companies flame out, but there's the potential for huge upside if you have equity at what becomes a successful company.

[Desert Fox]

[dixiecupdrinking]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

[beepboopbeep]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

That generally they haven't worked in and are probably grass-is-greener-ing

[Abbie Doobie]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

That generally they haven't worked in and are probably grass-is-greener-ing

it's definitely some of that. i'm sure there are plenty of coders on the stack overflow forums lamenting how they should have gone to law school.

[mirage1287]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

That generally they haven't worked in and are probably grass-is-greener-ing

it's definitely some of that. i'm sure there are plenty of coders on the stack overflow forums lamenting how they should have gone to law school.

Lol. I don't think anyone laments this.

[krads153]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

Just keeping in mind their options. Most JD holders end up leaving the law anyway (or don't even enter in the first place) - might as well plan their exit.

[Abbie Doobie]

It's really weird how obsessed some of you are with the salaries of people in entirely separate fields.

That generally they haven't worked in and are probably grass-is-greener-ing

it's definitely some of that. i'm sure there are plenty of coders on the stack overflow forums lamenting how they should have gone to law school.

Lol. I don't think anyone laments this.

you would be sorely mistaken then

[nealric]

You are thinking about tech wrong. It's actually more of a job where the more coding there is and coding completed, the more programming is needed. Just look at the s-curve of technology. And also lol at first movers, the salary keeps going up and up and up. Law isn't dead because there are too many lawyers. Law is dead because it's not needed anymore and clients know that so they won't pay the bills.

All areas of the labor market are governed by supply and demand. The demand for programmers, while growing, is not infinite. Low barriers to entry mean supply growth will keep up with demand group over the medium to long term. Booms don't last forever for a reason. Going back to the early 00's, there were plenty of tech types (including programmers) who fell in hard times after demand suddenly collapsed.

Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing. I am a client, and we absolutely still pay our lawyers. The issue is an oversupply of lawyers, especially at the entry level and in non-specialty practice areas (i.e. general commercial litigation). There's still plenty of demand and low supply for very senior and specialized lawyers. That's why the $5 million a year partner exists.

Yeah well you are mistaken in thinking there is a finite demand then. Coding and technology is the opposite of that. Demand for legal services is steady to slightly growing compared to 2008 and 2010. Demand since 1995/2000 is way down.

Just look at the salaries of lawyer. In the past 10-15 years real inflation adjusted comp is down 20-30% in biglaw and 50%+ in shitlaw/govt/other legal secotrs. Demand is drying up. The more and more tech created the more and more tech needed. I mean sure eventually it might dry up in probably hundreds of years but anyone taking the legal field over the programming field is insane if you are looking at the next 50 years. Comp is skyrocketing; the number of coders content creators has probably gone up 10,000% in the last 10 years; salaries have probably roughly doubled and the top end salaries have gone up 10,000%+ too. You can make $40 million now in that field. It's just mind boggling people actually think it's close to a discussion.

If you want to compare law to other positions maybe nursing, engineering, being a teacher, professor, HR, are worthwhile comparisons.

Entry level salaries are down in biglaw. I'm not talking about entry level salaries. Profits per partner are WAY up. The issue is not demand for legal services overall, it's demand for low-level legal services and high supply of entry level lawyers.

If there were infinite demand for coders, salaries would essentially be infinite. And I don't see any real change in coding salaires since the first tech boom in the 90s. I suppose you could call Bill Gates a coder. He made $80 billion almost exclusively based on work performed in the 80s and 90s. But his reality has absolutely nothing to do with someone fresh out of a code academy. Might as well say insurance salesmen make billions because Warren Buffet is an insurance salesman.

You're missing the fact that coders get the majority of their upside from equity and/or RSUs in public companies. This can be worth much, much more than a base salary. Sure, most startups/private companies flame out, but there's the potential for huge upside if you have equity at what becomes a successful company.

Equity is not dependent on job title. I'm a lawyer and I'm compensated in part with public company equity. As for huge upside potential in startups... well, there's huge potential upside in lottery tickets too. Those working in startups also have terrible job security.

[jd20132013]

Your experience will depend on who you work with. Some firms are tolerable. Some are unbearable.

Can't believe this post was ignored. This completely. I've been at two firms-one was absolutely horrible, and my current firm is great. The people and the kind of work you get to do make all the difference. And contrary to popular opinion on TLS, money isn't everything. Being at a firm that doesn't make me cry and want to quit everyday >>>>>>>>>>>> market bonus.

sadly its like pulling teeth to get people to tell you which are which

understandably.

[84651846190]

Your experience will depend on who you work with. Some firms are tolerable. Some are unbearable.

Can't believe this post was ignored. This completely. I've been at two firms-one was absolutely horrible, and my current firm is great. The people and the kind of work you get to do make all the difference. And contrary to popular opinion on TLS, money isn't everything. Being at a firm that doesn't make me cry and want to quit everyday >>>>>>>>>>>> market bonus.

sadly its like pulling teeth to get people to tell you which are which

understandably.

...if you look hard enough.

[patentlitigatrix]

^^^^
This TV reference is awesome. <3

[Anonymous User]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

[El Pollito]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

[Anonymous User]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

[84651846190]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

If you're going to quit law, do it now. Life is short. There's no point in spending an ever-increasing chunk of it doing something that you know you don't want to do (relative to however else you are able to make a living).