New associate fuck up thread (and tips for slacking) Forum

[baal hadad]

Don't want people to think that ur dumb right off the bat

Maybe they'll figure it out later

Yeah but the associates who stress out about this are the ones who tend to write research memos like "Under the X test, the answer might be Y, but then again, it could be Z, though probably not Z, but maybe C, who can say?"

Lol true

There is def a way to overthink things

[Johann]

Is it acceptable to leave at 5 when you don't have any work even if others in your vicinity stay past 7? In all honesty, while I would love to get at least some exposure, as between pretending to work and R&R, I feel like I'd be more useful if I keep refreshed till it gets busy. However, I'm concerned about appearing lazy.

I'd stick around through six--but this is a better question for a mid-level associate you trust.

I have no problem leaving at 5, but I understand some people do. If that's the case, you should take a long ass lunch from 12-2 and walk around/meet up with friends/go home/gym it or whatever.

IMO working 9-5 is a mistake, but only because most law firms give associates work that just takes longer than that to complete well. If the work is getting done, I wouldn't worry about the optics of leaving a 5 unless he's actually telling people that he can't do work because he has to make it home in time for Big Bang Theory reruns at 5:30, which seems unlikely. The best advice is to figure out whether the people you work for are morning people or evening people and just adapt to that. I'm a morning person, so I generally get here by 7:00 but I'm rarely in the office past 6:00, and nobody seems to care.

Nobody seems to care about anything though. Get in at 10? Nobody seems to care. leave at 5? Nobody seems to care. Work from home one day? Nobody seems to care. The theme is law firm partners just don't actually care what you do as long as you bill hours, make them money, and do decent work.

[20160810]

Routinely arriving after 9:00 would be a problem at my firm, I think it's only NYC where people don't mind that.

[NotMyRealName09]

My secretary and I are having a power struggle. I turned the thermostat down in my office (I like it cold); a little while later, my secretary comes in and says she's cold and asks if she can turn the temperature up. Apparently the cold air drifts out of my office. Anyway, I said fine and she turns it up.

The next weekend I'm in the office finishing up some work and get warm. Turn the AC down. Forget to turn it up. Following week, she comes in complaining that she's cold. I tell her to turn the thermostat up. She calls maintenance to check the temperature and while they're in my office she asks if they can put a locking device on the thermostat. I laugh, loudly. The maintenance people left without installing a lock. But LOL at her even asking about this while I sit there as if I'm not in the room!

Also, she hasn't added my name to her footer. All of the other secretaries appear to have added their new associates, but not mine. Don't want to seem petty by bringing it up, but it's been a month now.

What is a footer?

Give her some work. If she is surly or doesn't do it. Freeze her out forever. Never give her a gift, etc. Give her bad yearly reviews. You don't really need a secretary anyway.

If you need one for some reason, just ask for a new one.

I get where DF is coming from, but be careful with a "screw your secretary" strategy. If your secretary only works for worthless junior associates like yourself, then fine. But if she works for a key partner in your practice group (or even if she is just generally well-liked by partners in your group), then you better find a way to play nice.

Yeah, to use a strained analogy, the secretary pool is like a strip club. Piss one off (because she's fat / fatter than that one over there), and she's gonna tell all the strippers you're a jerk and then none of them will work for you.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the 5 guy. I actually have a gym were I live that was much cheaper so go there. This is part of why I like leaving at 5 if I don't have work. The 12-2 lunch doesn't do a ton for me either, but something worth looking into. It's not like I'm rushing through work to leave at 5. I'm talking about when there is no work.

[brotherdarkness]

Nobody seems to care about anything though. Get in at 10? Nobody seems to care. leave at 5? Nobody seems to care. Work from home one day? Nobody seems to care. The theme is law firm partners just don't actually care what you do as long as you bill hours, make them money, and do decent work.

This doesn't hold true everywhere. I don't think I could just decide to work from home tomorrow without raising a few eyebrows. And people certainly notice who's here and when they're here, even if there's no explicit face time requirement.

[NotMyRealName09]

I've been giving her whatever work I can--not much to delegate yet, frankly. I've had her add things to my calendars, print/scan/mail things for me, and so on. She seems to do fine and doesn't give me any attitude, but the thermostat thing makes me think there's some confusion on her part about our dynamic.

Dude, between billing 250+ hours in your first month and getting into a thermostat war with your secretary, all the signs point to you lasting 18 months. Maybe 24 months. Seriously, this isn't good. You aren't impressing anyone by billing so much as a stub and your attitude towards your secretary ("there's confusion on her part about our dynamic") will prove toxic. Chill out. Chill out soon.

I'm catching up on this thread, but in case anyone hasn't said yet - yeah. I've noticed something in life. A person either doesn't have problems with people, or always has problems with people. I never have problems with people. My sister, somehow, someway, always has problems with people, and its never her, its them. This is a pattern that I think deserves some self-reflection, but to those afflicted it seems they are actually blind to it. Fascinating.

If this has no bearing to you BD, then cool. I just like commenting on the internet.

[NotMyRealName09]

Nobody seems to care about anything though. Get in at 10? Nobody seems to care. leave at 5? Nobody seems to care. Work from home one day? Nobody seems to care. The theme is law firm partners just don't actually care what you do as long as you bill hours, make them money, and do decent work.

This doesn't hold true everywhere. I don't think I could just decide to work from home tomorrow without raising a few eyebrows. And people certainly notice who's here and when they're here, even if there's no explicit face time requirement.

This really is case-by-case. My old firm, no one gave a shit where you were so long as you billed. But when things slowed down, it was more important to be there just so show "hey I'm available, what do you want from me?" Odd inversion - be super busy, don't have to come in. Be slow, you better be there even if twiddling thumbs all day long.

[brotherdarkness]

I've been giving her whatever work I can--not much to delegate yet, frankly. I've had her add things to my calendars, print/scan/mail things for me, and so on. She seems to do fine and doesn't give me any attitude, but the thermostat thing makes me think there's some confusion on her part about our dynamic.

Dude, between billing 250+ hours in your first month and getting into a thermostat war with your secretary, all the signs point to you lasting 18 months. Maybe 24 months. Seriously, this isn't good. You aren't impressing anyone by billing so much as a stub and your attitude towards your secretary ("there's confusion on her part about our dynamic") will prove toxic. Chill out. Chill out soon.

I'm catching up on this thread, but in case anyone hasn't said yet - yeah. I've noticed something in life. A person either doesn't have problems with people, or always has problems with people. I never have problems with people. My sister, somehow, someway, always has problems with people, and its never her, its them. This is a pattern that I think deserves some self-reflection, but to those afflicted it seems they are actually blind to it. Fascinating.

If this has no bearing to you BD, then cool. I just like commenting on the internet.

I agree with the principle; essentially the same as "if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole; if you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

I don't have a problem with her, I think she just wants to make it clear that she's been here longer than I have, and that though I may be an associate, she's higher on the food chain.

Self reflection is always good tho, so thanks for point that out.

[NotMyRealName09]

I've been giving her whatever work I can--not much to delegate yet, frankly. I've had her add things to my calendars, print/scan/mail things for me, and so on. She seems to do fine and doesn't give me any attitude, but the thermostat thing makes me think there's some confusion on her part about our dynamic.

Dude, between billing 250+ hours in your first month and getting into a thermostat war with your secretary, all the signs point to you lasting 18 months. Maybe 24 months. Seriously, this isn't good. You aren't impressing anyone by billing so much as a stub and you're attitude your secretary ("there's confusion on her part about our dynamic") will prove toxic. Chill out. Chill out soon.

Lol dude the thermostat war is one of the most entertaining aspects of firm life thus far.

ETA - I'm super pleasant with my secretary and don't try to be her boss or whatever. I just think it's a bit absurd for her to ask about putting a lock on my thermometer in my office while I'm sitting there.

I learned, over the course of several secretaries, that its far better to "be the boss" right off the bat. Its what they want and expect, but no one ever says "please work me hard" - er, in a work setting. Early on in my career--when I felt like a child and it was weird to have someone working for me--I tried to be the friend guy, the "I'm not your boss, we're a team!" guy. My last assistant eventually called me out on that--she said no, you're my boss, don't give me your shit, its patronizing, so lets proceed accordingly. (She was awesome).

So for another facile, non-PC, make-me-sound-like-a-dick analogy - secretaries, like children, crave and thrive in structure. Sure, they'll tell you they don't want to do what you say--but they really do, and they like it when you show interest in them. So give them challenging work. Keep them honest. And when they do well, tell them they did a great job. They'll respect you for it, and your relationship going forward will be mutually productive.

God I hope my assistant never reads this. I may need to engage in a little o' the self-reflection everyone's raving about.

[Desert Fox]

[Good Guy Gaud]

tag

[RaceJudicata]

I've been giving her whatever work I can--not much to delegate yet, frankly. I've had her add things to my calendars, print/scan/mail things for me, and so on. She seems to do fine and doesn't give me any attitude, but the thermostat thing makes me think there's some confusion on her part about our dynamic.

Dude, between billing 250+ hours in your first month and getting into a thermostat war with your secretary, all the signs point to you lasting 18 months. Maybe 24 months. Seriously, this isn't good. You aren't impressing anyone by billing so much as a stub and your attitude towards your secretary ("there's confusion on her part about our dynamic") will prove toxic. Chill out. Chill out soon.

I'm catching up on this thread, but in case anyone hasn't said yet - yeah. I've noticed something in life. A person either doesn't have problems with people, or always has problems with people. I never have problems with people. My sister, somehow, someway, always has problems with people, and its never her, its them. This is a pattern that I think deserves some self-reflection, but to those afflicted it seems they are actually blind to it. Fascinating.

If this has no bearing to you BD, then cool. I just like commenting on the internet.

I agree with the principle; essentially the same as "if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole; if you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

I don't have a problem with her, I think she just wants to make it clear that she's been here longer than I have, and that though I may be an associate, she's higher on the food chain.

Self reflection is always good tho, so thanks for point that out.

Bro, she is cold, she asked PERMISSION to turn up the air (which realistically didn't have to do). This isn't a power play. Its normal human interaction. The bolded sentence is like saying: "I'm not racist, but i hate [insert race] people."

[brotherdarkness]

Bro, she is cold, she asked PERMISSION to turn up the air (which realistically didn't have to do). This isn't a power play. Its normal human interaction. The bolded sentence is like saying: "I'm not racist, but i hate [insert race] people."

Has nothing to do with her asking to turn the temp up. It's all about her asking maintenance people to lock my thermometer so that I can't adjust it while I'm sitting right there.

To be clear, the thermostat is in my office and does not affect the air conditioning in the hallway / secretarial pool. She says she's cold because the air drifts out of my office. Which is fine; I've kept the thermostat turned up. But when I'm here on weekends or when she's not here, I should be free to make it as cold as I please.

[NotMyRealName09]

Bro, she is cold, she asked PERMISSION to turn up the air (which realistically didn't have to do). This isn't a power play. Its normal human interaction. The bolded sentence is like saying: "I'm not racist, but i hate [insert race] people."

Has nothing to do with her asking to turn the temp up. It's all about her asking maintenance people to lock my thermometer so that I can't adjust it while I'm sitting right there.

She was trying to chastity-cage you. Unless that's your thing, I agree, that was bold on her part.

[NotMyRealName09]

Bro, she is cold, she asked PERMISSION to turn up the air (which realistically didn't have to do). This isn't a power play. Its normal human interaction. The bolded sentence is like saying: "I'm not racist, but i hate [insert race] people."

Has nothing to do with her asking to turn the temp up. It's all about her asking maintenance people to lock my thermometer so that I can't adjust it while I'm sitting right there.

To be clear, the thermostat is in my office and does not affect the air conditioning in the hallway / secretarial pool. She says she's cold because the air drifts out of my office. Which is fine; I've kept the thermostat turned up. But when I'm here on weekends or when she's not here, I should be free to make it as cold as I please.

This is actually a documented, studied phenomena, with some going so far as to wonder if the prevalence of cold offices reflects workplace sexism. Guys tend to be larger and feel hotter, while there is some scientific basis why women always feel colder even when they have the same physical dimensions. I say fuck that noise, I hate being hot, and bullshit my assistant is going to tell me I've gotta deal when she could put on the ubiquitous sweater which is practically part of the everywoman year-round uniform - I'm a direct revenue generator damn it. But an interesting view nonetheless.

(Huh, why do women always have sweaters? Is that partly my fault? Am I an asshole? Reflection!)

[Desert Fox]

[Tiago Splitter]

What about just closing the door?

[NotMyRealName09]

I still don't get why your office thermometer effects her.

Strangely enough, I observe this exact cold-secretary-because-boss's-office-is-cold phenomena right now. When my boss is out, his assistant keeps his office door shut expressly because its always cold and creates a draft. She keeps a heater under her desk and has it on even during summer. But note where the office dynamic falls there--boss gets it cold.

[Anonymous User]

Same 5 PM guy. What if you're not staffed on anything at the time, and waiting for more work? Is leaving at 5 still not acceptable in your office, DF?

Regarding the thermostat debate, it's worth noting that in addition to weighing more, men also have to wear sport jackets at most places and a sport jacket does (in my opinion) make it like 5-6 degrees warmer. I feel like most women just wear a long sleeve shirt this time of year or one piece dress (whatever they're called), and no jacket.

[NotMyRealName09]

What about just closing the door?

I'm serial replying I realize, but some offices like to maintain an "open door" policy as part of firm culture. My old job, you closed the door if on a call or something but otherwise kept it open. If a door was closed, it was something one noticed because it was unusual, and no one routinely just kept their door close while they were at work. Maybe that's in play.

[brotherdarkness]

What about just closing the door?

I do that sometimes, but most people here leave their doors open unless they're on a call. I keep my door partway closed most of the time, but there's only a handful of people who seem to keep their doors closed all the time (on my floor, at least).

[Desert Fox]

[NotMyRealName09]

I still don't get why your office thermometer effects her.

"if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole; if you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

[rpupkin]

Same 5 PM guy. What if you're not staffed on anything at the time, and waiting for more work? Is leaving at 5 still not acceptable in your office, DF?

Regarding the thermostat debate, it's worth noting that in addition to weighing more, men also have to wear sport jackets at most places and a sport jacket does (in my opinion) make it like 5-6 degrees warmer. I feel like most women just wear a long sleeve shirt this time of year or one piece dress (whatever they're called), and no jacket.

For me, I could just not show up at all even when I'm busy. But the corp group, you have to sit there even if you KNOW there is no working coming.

I know people in big NYC groups where they commonly wait around til 11 pm for work (if they suspect work is coming). And they stay to 7-8 no matter what.

I've had the same experience as DF at both firms I've worked at. Also not NYC. Also lit.

It just depends on the culture of your firm, office, and practice group. Play it safe until you have a feel for what's acceptable. In general, though, I think people here freak out too much about some partner seeing them board an elevator at 5:30. Frankly, that's not the moment you have to worry about, even at an uptight place. What you need to worry about is some partner looking for you at 6 (because they need you for something specific) and you've taken off even though it's the norm for associates to stay till 7.